The Crypto Gambling Foundation will be calling out fake "Provably fair" sites - page 2.

dogedice.me

hero member

Activity: 776

Merit: 522

Hey guys,

First of all, we are happy to join the CGF.

Secondly, I would like to say that

Quote from: Aengus on October 25, 2017, 09:13:59 PM

The proper way of creating a true provably fair website consists of 3 simple aspects.

Quote

[Server Seed Hash] + [Client Seed] + [Nonce]

Is not absolutely true. For example, BitDice does not have [Nonce] part, we show [Server Seed Hash] prior the bet, generate random [Client Seed] on the client and show the [Server Seed] after the bet.

http://prntscr.com/h4pi2f

This method gives few advantages:

1) If the server was compromised hacker can get an advantage over only 1 next bet. ( This prevents the case that happened with PD )
2) The casino doesn't know about future player outcomes.

Regards,
Alex.

gapjustin

full member

Activity: 143

Merit: 100

Quote from: JackpotRacer on October 30, 2017, 01:59:47 AM

Quote from: gapjustin on October 30, 2017, 01:56:13 AM

Welp, I think it's a good idea to do this. however I don't think someone who owns a gambling site should be thebone doing this as he/she might be biased.

biased to what?

Biased about their own site.
Who knows, maybe in the future an even better PF system could come out. Being unbiased in that situation is so much better for the rest. Also if you do this while owning a site yourself, it could be seen as just bashing on competition trying to get others out of the game in an underhanded method. So I still think it's better if someone without any affiliation to any site does this.

porto-pok

newbie

Activity: 42

Merit: 0

What are you talking about ? what is a provably fair site ?

adaseb

legendary

Activity: 3808

Merit: 1723

Quote from: lrdeoliveira on October 29, 2017, 06:25:24 PM

Quote from: adaseb on October 27, 2017, 03:38:21 AM

You are saying that some sites don't have the nonce when calculating the provably fair outcome

[Server Seed Hash] + [Client Seed] + [Nonce]

However if its just the server seed hash and client seed, and if both of those are constant won't the roll be exactly the same everytime.

In this case I assume the server seed hash keeps changing, while client seed stays the same. In that case since the noonce always starts at 1, won't it be exactly the same situation.

Since the casino already knows what the nonce will be and they know their server seed. And they assume "client seed" won't get changed.

Moment you change the client seed (Yourself and not through sites choice) you have made the decision of what all the next outcomes will be. This is due to an added nonce. If you don't have the nonce you are forced to change your client seed every single time.

In that case you are not forced to change your client seed, most likely in that scenario the server seed would change everytime.

Basically its how the site is coded, but it makes no difference whether a nonce is incremented or the server/client seed is changed.

Someone did an analysis of this and tried to find a pattern, and the results were all "almost" equallity likely.

JackpotRacer

legendary

Activity: 1974

Merit: 1014

All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Quote from: maximuss on October 30, 2017, 02:47:08 AM

Quote from: JackpotRacer on October 30, 2017, 01:59:47 AM

Quote from: gapjustin on October 30, 2017, 01:56:13 AM

Welp, I think it's a good idea to do this. however I don't think someone who owns a gambling site should be thebone doing this as he/she might be biased.

biased to what?

I agree...
This is the same as Marlboro establishing foundation "Let's stop lung cancer" Grin

That's just definition of Conflict of interests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest

sorry but I cant agree with this comparison. lets say primedice is using the perfect Provably Fair solution and asking all casinos to add the same perfect Provably Fair solution what would be wrong with this or biased?

how many perfect Provably Fair solutions are out there?

to be frank I am not an expert of PF but I always wanted to see that the PF solution is done the way that a player can verify his bets after his session and it should not matter if the player's session was 1 bet or thousands of bets or more. to change client seed for each bet is not good for players and is not good for casino OPs

maximuss

member

Activity: 108

Merit: 10

Quote from: JackpotRacer on October 30, 2017, 01:59:47 AM

Quote from: gapjustin on October 30, 2017, 01:56:13 AM

Welp, I think it's a good idea to do this. however I don't think someone who owns a gambling site should be thebone doing this as he/she might be biased.

biased to what?

I agree...
This is the same as Marlboro establishing foundation "Let's stop lung cancer" Grin

That's just definition of Conflict of interests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_of_interest

ImHash

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 506

Good job, Now you want to stop them from cheating people? I used to gamble a lot but after some time I realized the only outcome was for me to lose no matter how I gambled and how many strategies I used. I wanna know what happens to casinos if they all use real provably fair system? Probably they will all close down their business and go home, Because if you let the results to be determined by random outcomes then one would use a simple strategy to win at the end.

JackpotRacer

legendary

Activity: 1974

Merit: 1014

All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Quote from: gapjustin on October 30, 2017, 01:56:13 AM

Welp, I think it's a good idea to do this. however I don't think someone who owns a gambling site should be thebone doing this as he/she might be biased.

biased to what?

gapjustin

full member

Activity: 143

Merit: 100

Welp, I think it's a good idea to do this. however I don't think someone who owns a gambling site should be thebone doing this as he/she might be biased.

Aengus

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Edward Miroslav

Quote from: imamimam1234 on October 30, 2017, 12:42:14 AM

Finally got this explanation about provably fair, thank you. I will pay attention to this topic read it in depth mode

.

Glad we're getting the message across nice & simply!

JackpotRacer

legendary

Activity: 1974

Merit: 1014

All Games incl Racer and Lottery game are Closed

Quote from: Aengus on October 30, 2017, 12:31:15 AM

Updates on current members can be found on the forum. Welcome Betking as a new member. They have been a trust machine in the Bitcointalk community for years & we can't stress enough about the safety of betting there. Rest assured, your results are random & your funds safe.

Great job with their recent ICO. I can't wait to see them add more provably fair casino games!

I second you and very well expressed.

imamimam1234

full member

Activity: 316

Merit: 101

The Winner Stands Alone

Finally got this explanation about provably fair, thank you. I will pay attention to this topic read it in depth mode

.

Aengus

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Edward Miroslav

Updates on current members can be found on the forum. Welcome Betking as a new member. They have been a trust machine in the Bitcointalk community for years & we can't stress enough about the safety of betting there. Rest assured, your results are random & your funds safe.

Great job with their recent ICO. I can't wait to see them add more provably fair casino games!

lrdeoliveira

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 253

Quote from: adaseb on October 27, 2017, 03:38:21 AM

You are saying that some sites don't have the nonce when calculating the provably fair outcome

[Server Seed Hash] + [Client Seed] + [Nonce]

However if its just the server seed hash and client seed, and if both of those are constant won't the roll be exactly the same everytime.

In this case I assume the server seed hash keeps changing, while client seed stays the same. In that case since the noonce always starts at 1, won't it be exactly the same situation.

Since the casino already knows what the nonce will be and they know their server seed. And they assume "client seed" won't get changed.

Moment you change the client seed (Yourself and not through sites choice) you have made the decision of what all the next outcomes will be. This is due to an added nonce. If you don't have the nonce you are forced to change your client seed every single time.

buwaytress

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Activity: 2968

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Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!

Despite my own personal feelings that people should do their own research, can't deny that a lot of newbies wouldn't know how to verify provably fair claims on their own, based on my own initial experience with crypto casinos. On that note, I think this is a good call and can be educational at the same time.

Just be careful not to harm your own reputation also. Rhavar's right that it would be harsh (not to mention unfair) if a blanket label of fake be used in calling sites out. Might want to edit the thread title to better reflect your objectives... which is not to call out fake sites but perhaps... to ensure a standard or benchmarking for Provably Fair casinos?

I'd advise to develop a standard operating procedure for approaching, informing and evaluating site owners responses and (possible) rectifications before announcing anything. I think owners should also be given the benefit of doubt - a proper reach out can help establish this.

adaseb

legendary

Activity: 3808

Merit: 1723

You are saying that some sites don't have the nonce when calculating the provably fair outcome

[Server Seed Hash] + [Client Seed] + [Nonce]

However if its just the server seed hash and client seed, and if both of those are constant won't the roll be exactly the same everytime.

In this case I assume the server seed hash keeps changing, while client seed stays the same. In that case since the noonce always starts at 1, won't it be exactly the same situation.

Since the casino already knows what the nonce will be and they know their server seed. And they assume "client seed" won't get changed.

audaciousbeing

hero member

Activity: 1330

Merit: 569

So in short what the service propose to offer is providing a review on gambling sites. We can only hope that you won't compromised along the line because there are several sites that claim to review but the same gambling sites they want to provide unfettered review about, have their banner on their site as a form of advertisement.

My advice, when you discover a site that does not comply based on your calculations, the first is to contact them because they might have built some valid assumptions into their own calculations so as to avoid issues of going back and forth on the basis of figures which does not add any value.

Aengus

full member

Activity: 182

Merit: 100

Edward Miroslav

Thank you for all the support from everyone.

Nelka4

sr. member

Activity: 269

Merit: 251

Quote from: lrdeoliveira on October 26, 2017, 11:48:49 PM

Quote from: RHavar on October 26, 2017, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Aengus on October 25, 2017, 09:13:59 PM

A lot of websites miss the nonce aspect. This in turn creates an unfair environment and a major opportunity to rig events. Unless the user changes their client seed EVERY round this case is not fair. They will also have to in turn engage users to verify bets one by one to ensure their fairness. This isn't what anyone (Lets be realistic) does and leaves the vast majority of people open to being scammed. If an operator notices you are not changing your client seed EVERY bet they are able to change the outcome of rolls.

I think it's a bit too harsh to call it "fake" provably fair, as without a nonce it is still provably fair -- just perhaps suboptimal from a users point of view. But if you trust the client (e.g. you've audited a static version, or using some 3rd party client you trust) it's actually possibly better.

There have been a bunch of casinos though with "fake provably fair", the biggest offender I remember was the old 999dice which put a "betId" (instead of a nonce) in the preimage, which allowed them to 100% control the outcome. And then there's been dozens of sites with "fake" provably fair systems (pretty much 99% of all multiplayer gambling games that come out, they screw up the provably fair and it's not actually provably fair).

I would be trying to categorize sites (from best to worst):

* Trustless
* Provably fair (follows best practices)
* Provably fair (warning: suboptimal, not practical for human verification)
* Not Provably Fair (game design makes provably fair impractical)
* Not Provably Fair (for no good reason)
* Fake Provably Fair (claims to be provably fair, but isn't)

Awesome that your on board Rhaver, you're one of the smartest guys in the Bitcoin gambling community. I hope to see you develop this.

Rhaver is the king of gambling, behind dooglus of course. Maybe stunna too if he's lucky :p

lrdeoliveira

sr. member

Activity: 532

Merit: 253

Quote from: RHavar on October 26, 2017, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Aengus on October 25, 2017, 09:13:59 PM

A lot of websites miss the nonce aspect. This in turn creates an unfair environment and a major opportunity to rig events. Unless the user changes their client seed EVERY round this case is not fair. They will also have to in turn engage users to verify bets one by one to ensure their fairness. This isn't what anyone (Lets be realistic) does and leaves the vast majority of people open to being scammed. If an operator notices you are not changing your client seed EVERY bet they are able to change the outcome of rolls.

I think it's a bit too harsh to call it "fake" provably fair, as without a nonce it is still provably fair -- just perhaps suboptimal from a users point of view. But if you trust the client (e.g. you've audited a static version, or using some 3rd party client you trust) it's actually possibly better.

There have been a bunch of casinos though with "fake provably fair", the biggest offender I remember was the old 999dice which put a "betId" (instead of a nonce) in the preimage, which allowed them to 100% control the outcome. And then there's been dozens of sites with "fake" provably fair systems (pretty much 99% of all multiplayer gambling games that come out, they screw up the provably fair and it's not actually provably fair).

I would be trying to categorize sites (from best to worst):

* Trustless
* Provably fair (follows best practices)
* Provably fair (warning: suboptimal, not practical for human verification)
* Not Provably Fair (game design makes provably fair impractical)
* Not Provably Fair (for no good reason)
* Fake Provably Fair (claims to be provably fair, but isn't)

Awesome that your on board Rhaver, you're one of the smartest guys in the Bitcoin gambling community. I hope to see you develop this.

Topic: The Crypto Gambling Foundation will be calling out fake "Provably fair" sites - page 2. (Read 1881 times)