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Topic: The Dangerous State of Bitcoin (.com) - page 2. (Read 9061 times)

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
October 27, 2011, 10:02:58 PM
#67
Only because the government will happily bail them out in the end. That's the only thing that incentivizes the failure in the first place. Otherwise, investors going around and failing companies would find themselves collapse in reputation and funding. A world where investors only want companies to fail is a fantasy.
That's actually not the only reason. Part of it is that there is no competition for varying corporate structures. Pretty much the only way you can form a company is with complete financial immunity for stakeholders and decisionmakers and wherein the decisions are made by investors who can dump the stock any time they feel like it. This is likely not anywhere close to the best corporate structure.

The reason we reject the idea that the workers should own the means of production is that they are free to buy them if they wish. But it would be the unusual coincidence where the best investment most workers could find would be the very same tools they needed to work with. Different investments have different risk/reward profiles and a worker's outlook would match his financial needs only by total coincidence. Yet we have compelled precisely the same flaw in our corporate structures. Votes represent both shares in the profits and shares in the decision making. Shares are dumpable at a moment's notice By law, we have inexorably tied them together.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I never hashed for this...
October 27, 2011, 09:57:35 PM
#66
I mean, you've played Deus Ex. You know the overpriced Neuropozyne supply was only caused by a government-enforced patent, giving VersaLife a monopoly on the life-sustaining drug? Others could of easily produced the drug on a massive scale for cheaper prices if the patent wasn't in place.

Silly me, I forgot about the intense thought-provoking criticisms of the state in a video game where a shadowy branch of government in the form of FEMA is on the payroll of the Illuminati, who use a quantum computer built from the brains of young women to control large machinery and send mind controlling signals into the brain implants of the citizens.

My bad.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:53:33 PM
#65
I mean, you've played Deus Ex. You know the overpriced Neuropozyne supply was only caused by a government-enforced patent, giving VersaLife a monopoly on the life-sustaining drug? Others could of easily produced the drug on a massive scale for cheaper prices if the patent wasn't in place.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:50:47 PM
#64

We should nationalize the fuck out of a lot of critical industries - look what private, laissez-faire finance sectors got us

The very supply and price of money itself is centrally planned in America. Were you not aware of that?  Roll Eyes


Supply and price isn't the problem.

Distribution that is very disproportionate to value added to system however, is.

Life isn't a zero-sum game. People will only purchase things if they get something of greater value in return. It's economics 101. Value distribution is inherently fine in a system without monopolies on force intervening and giving favors to certain entities and individuals.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I never hashed for this...
October 27, 2011, 09:48:34 PM
#63

We should nationalize the fuck out of a lot of critical industries - look what private, laissez-faire finance sectors got us

The very supply and price of money itself is centrally planned in America. Were you not aware of that?  Roll Eyes


Supply and price isn't the problem.

Distribution that is very disproportionate to value added to system however, is.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack
October 27, 2011, 09:43:04 PM
#62

We should nationalize the fuck out of a lot of critical industries - look what private, laissez-faire finance sectors got us

The very supply and price of money itself is centrally planned in America. Were you not aware of that?  Roll Eyes
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:40:48 PM
#61
You'd be amazed how wrong you are when it's something everyone needs and there's only one supplier and they're charging a 500% mark-up for no obvious reason other than "more money for us; fuck you".

1) How do you know they are making 500% markup?
2) If you know they have 500% markup why don't you buy stock
3) It would not be possible to sustain 500% markup without the ACTIVE SUPPORT of the government (i.e. the govt creating and enforcing a prohibition on competitors).

Likely this 500% markup is something in your mind only.

You're wasting your time. Energy companies receive countless government subsidies. The argument is now bunk. If he can't accept our contentions after this fact, it's hopeless.

The subsidies are to keep them from marking up the prices more, you clueless fuck

Exactly right.  I pay a very reasonable rate for my power, and the linemen, management, commissioners and everyone else involved in getting that power to me make a good living wage largely because there is not a parasitic 'private investor' class to leach off of us users.

As soon as thing were privatized in CA where I lived at the time, Enron gouged the shit out of us customers for natural gas claiming 'market conditions'.  And when the transmission lines were privatized in the mid-west, we had the biggest power outage ever IIRC because the 'investors' were pocketing the money which should have gone into maintenance.

Some wise person who's name I've forgotten once made the statement "When you hear the word 'privatization', you better put your hand on your wallet.'



People seem to forget that most investors don't care about company reputation or anything and are only investing for the quickest, biggest buck, and are completely willing to let rolling brownouts happen all over the southern US if it means they get to sneak away with another single dollar.

Investors won't be getting long-term returns that way. The company would have to be a failure from its inception to have a board of shareholders that conniving. It sounds a lot like Solyndra.

Of course investors aren't going to give a damn about what happens with a government-provisioned company or utility. They'll get paid fucking anyway.

Investors have never given a single fuck about long-term investments in this country - everything is about next quarter; and yes, it generally does lead to company failure, but not before all the "important people" get their cut of money before the company tanks

Only because the government will happily bail them out in the end. That's the only thing that incentivizes the failure in the first place. Otherwise, investors going around and failing companies would find themselves collapse in reputation and funding. A world where investors only want companies to fail is a fantasy.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I never hashed for this...
October 27, 2011, 09:38:47 PM
#60
You'd be amazed how wrong you are when it's something everyone needs and there's only one supplier and they're charging a 500% mark-up for no obvious reason other than "more money for us; fuck you".

1) How do you know they are making 500% markup?
2) If you know they have 500% markup why don't you buy stock
3) It would not be possible to sustain 500% markup without the ACTIVE SUPPORT of the government (i.e. the govt creating and enforcing a prohibition on competitors).

Likely this 500% markup is something in your mind only.

You're wasting your time. Energy companies receive countless government subsidies. The argument is now bunk. If he can't accept our contentions after this fact, it's hopeless.

The subsidies are to keep them from marking up the prices more, you clueless fuck

Exactly right.  I pay a very reasonable rate for my power, and the linemen, management, commissioners and everyone else involved in getting that power to me make a good living wage largely because there is not a parasitic 'private investor' class to leach off of us users.

As soon as thing were privatized in CA where I lived at the time, Enron gouged the shit out of us customers for natural gas claiming 'market conditions'.  And when the transmission lines were privatized in the mid-west, we had the biggest power outage ever IIRC because the 'investors' were pocketing the money which should have gone into maintenance.

Some wise person who's name I've forgotten once made the statement "When you hear the word 'privatization', you better put your hand on your wallet.'



People seem to forget that most investors don't care about company reputation or anything and are only investing for the quickest, biggest buck, and are completely willing to let rolling brownouts happen all over the southern US if it means they get to sneak away with another single dollar.

Investors won't be getting long-term returns that way. The company would have to be a failure from its inception to have a board of shareholders that conniving. It sounds a lot like Solyndra.

Of course investors aren't going to give a damn about what happens with a government-provisioned company or utility. They'll get paid fucking anyway.

Investors have never given a single fuck about long-term investments in this country - everything is about next quarter; and yes, it generally does lead to company failure, but not before all the "important people" get their cut of money before the company tanks
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:37:05 PM
#59
You'd be amazed how wrong you are when it's something everyone needs and there's only one supplier and they're charging a 500% mark-up for no obvious reason other than "more money for us; fuck you".

1) How do you know they are making 500% markup?
2) If you know they have 500% markup why don't you buy stock
3) It would not be possible to sustain 500% markup without the ACTIVE SUPPORT of the government (i.e. the govt creating and enforcing a prohibition on competitors).

Likely this 500% markup is something in your mind only.

You're wasting your time. Energy companies receive countless government subsidies. The argument is now bunk. If he can't accept our contentions after this fact, it's hopeless.

The subsidies are to keep them from marking up the prices more, you clueless fuck

Exactly right.  I pay a very reasonable rate for my power, and the linemen, management, commissioners and everyone else involved in getting that power to me make a good living wage largely because there is not a parasitic 'private investor' class to leach off of us users.

As soon as thing were privatized in CA where I lived at the time, Enron gouged the shit out of us customers for natural gas claiming 'market conditions'.  And when the transmission lines were privatized in the mid-west, we had the biggest power outage ever IIRC because the 'investors' were pocketing the money which should have gone into maintenance.

Some wise person who's name I've forgotten once made the statement "When you hear the word 'privatization', you better put your hand on your wallet.'

Enron is rigidly provisioned natural gas lines by the government. It was a highest-bidder monopoly from the start. No wonder Enron did what it did. In addition, "privatization" does not equal competitive and free. It usually means another layer of government-provisioned bureaucracy filled with crony capitalists.

Oh no! Another piece of evidence that doesn't agree with my unfounded faith in companies over the government! Better deny it completely and shout "free market" three times fast!

I haven't denied the evidence. I agree with the facts. It's just they point to another problem.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:36:22 PM
#58
Also, "private" is another word for unremorseful corruption of a public utility. Just subcontracting work doesn't make something competitive like a true private-sector work force. It's just people abusing the government's inefficiency to their own benefit.


How do you constantly write these little inconsistent posts and not check them before you hit the post button?

My post is fine and consistent.
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:35:50 PM
#57
You'd be amazed how wrong you are when it's something everyone needs and there's only one supplier and they're charging a 500% mark-up for no obvious reason other than "more money for us; fuck you".

1) How do you know they are making 500% markup?
2) If you know they have 500% markup why don't you buy stock
3) It would not be possible to sustain 500% markup without the ACTIVE SUPPORT of the government (i.e. the govt creating and enforcing a prohibition on competitors).

Likely this 500% markup is something in your mind only.

You're wasting your time. Energy companies receive countless government subsidies. The argument is now bunk. If he can't accept our contentions after this fact, it's hopeless.

The subsidies are to keep them from marking up the prices more, you clueless fuck

Exactly right.  I pay a very reasonable rate for my power, and the linemen, management, commissioners and everyone else involved in getting that power to me make a good living wage largely because there is not a parasitic 'private investor' class to leach off of us users.

As soon as thing were privatized in CA where I lived at the time, Enron gouged the shit out of us customers for natural gas claiming 'market conditions'.  And when the transmission lines were privatized in the mid-west, we had the biggest power outage ever IIRC because the 'investors' were pocketing the money which should have gone into maintenance.

Some wise person who's name I've forgotten once made the statement "When you hear the word 'privatization', you better put your hand on your wallet.'



People seem to forget that most investors don't care about company reputation or anything and are only investing for the quickest, biggest buck, and are completely willing to let rolling brownouts happen all over the southern US if it means they get to sneak away with another single dollar.

Investors won't be getting long-term returns that way. The company would have to be a failure from its inception to have a board of shareholders that conniving. It sounds a lot like Solyndra.

Of course investors aren't going to give a damn about what happens with a government-provisioned company or utility. They'll get paid fucking anyway.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I never hashed for this...
October 27, 2011, 09:35:37 PM
#56
Also, "private" is another word for unremorseful corruption of a public utility. Just subcontracting work doesn't make something competitive like a true private-sector work force. It's just people abusing the government's inefficiency to their own benefit.


How do you constantly write these little inconsistent posts and not check them before you hit the post button?
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I never hashed for this...
October 27, 2011, 09:34:07 PM
#55
You'd be amazed how wrong you are when it's something everyone needs and there's only one supplier and they're charging a 500% mark-up for no obvious reason other than "more money for us; fuck you".

1) How do you know they are making 500% markup?
2) If you know they have 500% markup why don't you buy stock
3) It would not be possible to sustain 500% markup without the ACTIVE SUPPORT of the government (i.e. the govt creating and enforcing a prohibition on competitors).

Likely this 500% markup is something in your mind only.

You're wasting your time. Energy companies receive countless government subsidies. The argument is now bunk. If he can't accept our contentions after this fact, it's hopeless.

The subsidies are to keep them from marking up the prices more, you clueless fuck

Exactly right.  I pay a very reasonable rate for my power, and the linemen, management, commissioners and everyone else involved in getting that power to me make a good living wage largely because there is not a parasitic 'private investor' class to leach off of us users.

As soon as thing were privatized in CA where I lived at the time, Enron gouged the shit out of us customers for natural gas claiming 'market conditions'.  And when the transmission lines were privatized in the mid-west, we had the biggest power outage ever IIRC because the 'investors' were pocketing the money which should have gone into maintenance.

Some wise person who's name I've forgotten once made the statement "When you hear the word 'privatization', you better put your hand on your wallet.'

Enron is rigidly provisioned natural gas lines by the government. It was a highest-bidder monopoly from the start. No wonder Enron did what it did. In addition, "privatization" does not equal competitive and free. It usually means another layer of government-provisioned bureaucracy filled with crony capitalists.

Oh no! Another piece of evidence that doesn't agree with my unfounded faith in companies over the government! Better deny it completely and shout "free market" three times fast!
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:33:39 PM
#54
Also, "private" is another word for unremorseful corruption of a public utility. Just subcontracting work doesn't make something competitive like a true private-sector work force. It's just people abusing the government's inefficiency to their own benefit.

sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I never hashed for this...
October 27, 2011, 09:32:25 PM
#53
You'd be amazed how wrong you are when it's something everyone needs and there's only one supplier and they're charging a 500% mark-up for no obvious reason other than "more money for us; fuck you".

1) How do you know they are making 500% markup?
2) If you know they have 500% markup why don't you buy stock
3) It would not be possible to sustain 500% markup without the ACTIVE SUPPORT of the government (i.e. the govt creating and enforcing a prohibition on competitors).

Likely this 500% markup is something in your mind only.

You're wasting your time. Energy companies receive countless government subsidies. The argument is now bunk. If he can't accept our contentions after this fact, it's hopeless.

The subsidies are to keep them from marking up the prices more, you clueless fuck

Exactly right.  I pay a very reasonable rate for my power, and the linemen, management, commissioners and everyone else involved in getting that power to me make a good living wage largely because there is not a parasitic 'private investor' class to leach off of us users.

As soon as thing were privatized in CA where I lived at the time, Enron gouged the shit out of us customers for natural gas claiming 'market conditions'.  And when the transmission lines were privatized in the mid-west, we had the biggest power outage ever IIRC because the 'investors' were pocketing the money which should have gone into maintenance.

Some wise person who's name I've forgotten once made the statement "When you hear the word 'privatization', you better put your hand on your wallet.'



People seem to forget that most investors don't care about company reputation or anything and are only investing for the quickest, biggest buck, and are completely willing to let rolling brownouts happen all over the southern US if it means they get to sneak away with another single dollar.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
October 27, 2011, 09:31:16 PM
#52
Most nationalized companies tend to have higher prices as they are a complete monopoly with little interest in driving down cost ... what is the point.

Still waiting for the name of this 500% company ... unless you just want to admit it doesn't exist.

I agree with most of your points but there are lots of 500% companies.

Most of them are luxury/optional catarogies and can do 500% because of creative designs or marketing.  Your main points would still be valid as most of these items are OPTIONAL purchases.

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-biggest-price-markups.php


Of course those examples exclude advertising, customer support, discounting, distribution, retail markup, etc.
I still want to see this company where cost of production is x and gross revenue is 5x.  

As an example the first product in that list was cosmetics.  One of the largest cosmetics companies is Este Lauder.  Their 2011 net profit margin is 8%.  So if the company operated for free (no profit to shareholders or for expansion) retail prices would be ~8% lower.   
newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:29:16 PM
#51
You'd be amazed how wrong you are when it's something everyone needs and there's only one supplier and they're charging a 500% mark-up for no obvious reason other than "more money for us; fuck you".

1) How do you know they are making 500% markup?
2) If you know they have 500% markup why don't you buy stock
3) It would not be possible to sustain 500% markup without the ACTIVE SUPPORT of the government (i.e. the govt creating and enforcing a prohibition on competitors).

Likely this 500% markup is something in your mind only.

You're wasting your time. Energy companies receive countless government subsidies. The argument is now bunk. If he can't accept our contentions after this fact, it's hopeless.

The subsidies are to keep them from marking up the prices more, you clueless fuck

Exactly right.  I pay a very reasonable rate for my power, and the linemen, management, commissioners and everyone else involved in getting that power to me make a good living wage largely because there is not a parasitic 'private investor' class to leach off of us users.

As soon as thing were privatized in CA where I lived at the time, Enron gouged the shit out of us customers for natural gas claiming 'market conditions'.  And when the transmission lines were privatized in the mid-west, we had the biggest power outage ever IIRC because the 'investors' were pocketing the money which should have gone into maintenance.

Some wise person who's name I've forgotten once made the statement "When you hear the word 'privatization', you better put your hand on your wallet.'

Enron is rigidly provisioned natural gas lines by the government. It was a highest-bidder monopoly from the start. No wonder Enron did what it did. In addition, "privatization" does not equal competitive and free. It usually means another layer of government-provisioned bureaucracy filled with crony capitalists.
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1004
October 27, 2011, 09:27:30 PM
#50
Most nationalized companies tend to have higher prices as they are a complete monopoly with little interest in driving down cost ... what is the point.

Still waiting for the name of this 500% company ... unless you just want to admit it doesn't exist.

I agree with most of your points but there are lots of 500% companies.

Most of them are luxury/optional catarogies and can do 500% because of creative designs or marketing.  Your main points would still be valid as most of these items are OPTIONAL purchases.

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-biggest-price-markups.php

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
October 27, 2011, 09:25:17 PM
#49
You'd be amazed how wrong you are when it's something everyone needs and there's only one supplier and they're charging a 500% mark-up for no obvious reason other than "more money for us; fuck you".

1) How do you know they are making 500% markup?
2) If you know they have 500% markup why don't you buy stock
3) It would not be possible to sustain 500% markup without the ACTIVE SUPPORT of the government (i.e. the govt creating and enforcing a prohibition on competitors).

Likely this 500% markup is something in your mind only.

You're wasting your time. Energy companies receive countless government subsidies. The argument is now bunk. If he can't accept our contentions after this fact, it's hopeless.

The subsidies are to keep them from marking up the prices more, you clueless fuck

Exactly right.  I pay a very reasonable rate for my power, and the linemen, management, commissioners and everyone else involved in getting that power to me make a good living wage largely because there is not a parasitic 'private investor' class to leach off of us users.

As soon as thing were privatized in CA where I lived at the time, Enron gouged the shit out of us customers for natural gas claiming 'market conditions'.  And when the transmission lines were privatized in the mid-west, we had the biggest power outage ever IIRC because the 'investors' were pocketing the money which should have gone into maintenance.

Some wise person who's name I've forgotten once made the statement "When you hear the word 'privatization', you better put your hand on your wallet.'

newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
October 27, 2011, 09:21:51 PM
#48
I want to see one coercive monopoly that isn't receiving a major helping hand from the government. Once I see that, I'll take this argument seriously.
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