nopara73 has just admitted they would hire a blockchain surveillance company to analyze every single UTXO that join to participate in a CoinJoin transactions.
https://t.me/WasabiWallet/63992
https://t.me/WasabiWallet/63992
Topic: The default Wasabi Wallet coordinator will start censoring "illegal" UTXOs - page 4. (Read 1585 times)
March 15, 2022, 05:55:30 PM
And all this with a webpage like that:
March 15, 2022, 02:16:54 PM
"anal company" sounds about right. Lovely that he's calling it censorship and making it sound like there is no other way. Spread your cheeks comrades.
Or just don't use Wasabi.
Or just don't use Wasabi.
March 15, 2022, 02:09:52 PM
-snip-
Wow. This is horrendous. Wasabi actively paying blockchain analysis companies. That's definitely where I want my coinjoin fees to be going - straight to a blockchain analysis company. I love paying other people to spy on me. 
Everyone should be uninstalling Wasabi now. You'd be an idiot not to. In other news, 30% off all Samourai whirlpool fees for the next week using the code WASABI_REFUGEES.
March 15, 2022, 01:55:15 PM
Well, they only need to cooperate in this sense to have the blockchain analysis entity feed them data about which UTXO's to block. But as I said, if they cooperate like this then it won't be long before that cooperation becomes a two way street, with them feeding data back to the blockchain analysis entity.
nopara73 has just admitted they would hire a blockchain surveillance company to analyze every single UTXO that join to participate in a CoinJoin transactions. https://t.me/WasabiWallet/63992
I've heard that wallet before, but does anyone know how often CoinJoin process happen? Waiting few days for single CoinJoin isn't practical.
I don't know much about this coordinator, but I know that the maximum anonset per round is 6 whereas in default Wasabi coordinator you can achieve an anonset of 100.Here is an old tweet with screenshots: https://twitter.com/HillebrandMax/status/1303034788920668161
March 15, 2022, 12:51:17 PM
Here is a fork of Wasabi Wallet called https://chaincase.app/, which is available on iOS and which is running its own coordinator.
I never heard about this fork and I am checking it out now, but real bad thing is having wallet that only works on iOS devices :/Desktop version is probably more complicated to make, but I don't know why there is no Android version, this is just a fork after all, how hard can it be.
I am sure originally Wasabi wallet will still work fine with some tweaks, but this could sadly mean much less volume and much less privacy.
March 15, 2022, 12:44:11 PM
Pardon my ignorance — but how hard is it to run such coordinators in a private manner? At the very least private enough for the authorities to have a very hard time in finding you if it's the case that you didn't comply.
Depends how private you want to be I guess. No reason you can't run a server over Tor and make all users connect to it over Tor as well, though. Or there is the decentralized option which pooya87 outlined where everyone becomes their own server, so to speak.In fact, they need to cooperate with blockchain analysis to obtain information about "taint" UTXOs.
Well, they only need to cooperate in this sense to have the blockchain analysis entity feed them data about which UTXO's to block. But as I said, if they cooperate like this then it won't be long before that cooperation becomes a two way street, with them feeding data back to the blockchain analysis entity.I know such option exist, but last time i checked,
1. You need to use terminal to change the coordinator. It's not user friendly and most users don't know such feature exist.
2. The documentation never state you can use different coordinator.
I feel it's meant for debugging/advance user rather than additional feature for all users due to reason i mentioned above.
All the more reason Wasabi should do things differently here. Rather than saying "We will block UTXOs, suck it up and deal with it", they should have said "We are being forced to block UTXOs against our will. As a result, here is a link to the zkSNACKs coordinate source code, here is a guide on how to set one up, we are putting a new menu in to Wasabi wallet to let you easily choose a different coordinator, we are starting development on decentralized coordinators, etc." 1. You need to use terminal to change the coordinator. It's not user friendly and most users don't know such feature exist.
2. The documentation never state you can use different coordinator.
I feel it's meant for debugging/advance user rather than additional feature for all users due to reason i mentioned above.
March 15, 2022, 04:28:19 AM
--snip--
In other words if Wasabi team were so worried about providing users with a privacy enhancing method, instead of "bending the knee" they should have eliminated the need for a centralized server.
In other words if Wasabi team were so worried about providing users with a privacy enhancing method, instead of "bending the knee" they should have eliminated the need for a centralized server.
It would be great if it's possible. But i doubt it's easy task, especially with large participant.
If they really hate it, at least they should give user option to use different coordinator. I expect someone will try to run their own coordinator.
Actually, there has always been an option in Wasabi Wallet to connect to your own or any other existing coordinator to be less reliant on the Wasabi team that runs the biggest coordinator. Yeah, the reason most people have been using zkSNACKs coordinator is that it is the most popular one. The more popular the coordinator is, the bigger crowd it attracts. The bigger the crowd is, the easier it is to obfuscate your transactions and harder to attack the wallet with Sybil attacks.I know such option exist, but last time i checked,
1. You need to use terminal to change the coordinator. It's not user friendly and most users don't know such feature exist.
2. The documentation never state you can use different coordinator.
I feel it's meant for debugging/advance user rather than additional feature for all users due to reason i mentioned above.
Here is a fork of Wasabi Wallet called https://chaincase.app/, which is available on iOS and which is running its own coordinator. You can connect your Wasabi Wallet to this coordinator using the following method: https://github.com/chaincase-app/chaincase/discussions/119
I've heard that wallet before, but does anyone know how often CoinJoin process happen? Waiting few days for single CoinJoin isn't practical.
March 15, 2022, 03:14:17 AM
Things like this should definitely be expected to come at some point if you think realistically. But yea — kinda earlier than expected, but at the same time I think we already saw mixers get pursued by the authorities so I guess I'm not THAT surprised.
Anyway, wish some devs would just fork the privacy coinjoin stuff and integrate it to Bitcoin Core; if it's possible, that is.
Anyway, wish some devs would just fork the privacy coinjoin stuff and integrate it to Bitcoin Core; if it's possible, that is.
Yeah, I think you, I and anyone paying attention will probably have to expect the worst when it comes to mixers (and I'm sure you guys all know what I'm talking about), and we'd probably have to expect it sooner rather than later. The only hopeful thing I can see is that some mixers still operate a little less visibly than the likes of Wasabi. And, in acknowledgment of above discussions on commercial/profiteering interest, some still choose to operate with clearer goals that would not see them give in to regulator pressure without a fight.
March 15, 2022, 12:48:32 AM
It's not profitable for them to develop or run a decentralized server since in this case they wouldn't collect any fees.
Sadly this has been a plague that the cryptocurrency world has been suffering from. Developers who want to ensure a way to make money from the "open source" project they are producing. We have altcoins that premine, run ICO fundraising,... we have DEXes that are centralized because the developer wants to earn money from fees, ... and now we have mixer that wants to make money and is censoring transactions! It's kinda philosophical but strongly believe one of the reasons why Bitcoin is so successful is that Satoshi didn't create it to make money. Conversely one of the reasons why so many altcoins failed or are failing is because they did the opposite.
March 15, 2022, 12:19:49 AM
If they really hate it, at least they should give user option to use different coordinator. I expect someone will try to run their own coordinator.
Actually, there has always been an option in Wasabi Wallet to connect to your own or any other existing coordinator to be less reliant on the Wasabi team that runs the biggest coordinator. Yeah, the reason most people have been using zkSNACKs coordinator is that it is the most popular one. The more popular the coordinator is, the bigger crowd it attracts. The bigger the crowd is, the easier it is to obfuscate your transactions and harder to attack the wallet with Sybil attacks.Here is a fork of Wasabi Wallet called https://chaincase.app/, which is available on iOS and which is running its own coordinator. You can connect your Wasabi Wallet to this coordinator using the following method: https://github.com/chaincase-app/chaincase/discussions/119
What is interesting about this is that you can participate in CoinJoin transactions with amounts as little as 0.01BTC.
In other words if Wasabi team were so worried about providing users with a privacy enhancing method, instead of "bending the knee" they should have eliminated the need for a centralized server.
It's not profitable for them to develop or run a decentralized server since in this case they wouldn't collect any fees.If they are willing to ban certain inputs, then it won't be long before they are willing to cooperate with blockchain analysis and de-anonymize transactions altogether. Yet another good entity which has sold out its principles and its users. What a shame.
March 14, 2022, 10:57:00 PM
If they really hate it, at least they should give user option to use different coordinator. I expect someone will try to run their own coordinator.
I tend to not comment on technologies I'm not familiar with but I believe that in CoinJoin protocol using a centralized coordinator is only one of the ways of doing things (the easiest way). There is another way that doesn't introduce this single point of failure. Quote from: gmaxwell link=topic=279249.msg2983902#msg2983902
Does the totally private version need to have a server at all? What if it gets shut down?
No. The same privacy can be achieved in a decentralized manner where all users act as blind-signing servers. This ends up needing n^2 signatures, and distributed systems are generally a lot harder to create. I don't know if there is, or ever would be, a reason to bother with a fully distributed version with full privacy, but it's certainly possible.
No. The same privacy can be achieved in a decentralized manner where all users act as blind-signing servers. This ends up needing n^2 signatures, and distributed systems are generally a lot harder to create. I don't know if there is, or ever would be, a reason to bother with a fully distributed version with full privacy, but it's certainly possible.
In other words if Wasabi team were so worried about providing users with a privacy enhancing method, instead of "bending the knee" they should have eliminated the need for a centralized server.
March 14, 2022, 10:53:18 PM
Absolutely. The coordinator code is open source, so anyone can download it and spin up their own instance. That would solve the immediate problem if everyone switched to a different coordinator, but it doesn't stop these other coordinators being pressured in to implementing the same restrictions and it doesn't change the fact that Wasabi did this in the first place instead of fighting against it.
Pardon my ignorance — but how hard is it to run such coordinators in a private manner? At the very least private enough for the authorities to have a very hard time in finding you if it's the case that you didn't comply.
March 14, 2022, 04:12:40 PM
Just as Samourai were right on the money a few weeks ago when they tweeted about AOPP, they are right on the money again with their tweets regarding this nonsense from Wasabi: https://nitter.net/SamouraiWallet/status/1503389170672226308
Would it be possible for some to start running coordinators?
Absolutely. The coordinator code is open source, so anyone can download it and spin up their own instance. That would solve the immediate problem if everyone switched to a different coordinator, but it doesn't stop these other coordinators being pressured in to implementing the same restrictions and it doesn't change the fact that Wasabi did this in the first place instead of fighting against it. 
March 14, 2022, 03:36:39 PM
According to this tweet, they "are trying to protect the company and the project by minimizing the amount of these hackers and scammers using the coordinator and getting us in trouble. This should be in the rights of the company to do but believe me, none of us are happy about this."
They should protect the company, but what's the point if they don't protect the users? This is serious and requires drastic measures. Would it be possible for some to start running coordinators? I believe there could be few from each community willing to run their own. No? March 14, 2022, 11:13:00 AM
This will push more people to centralized mixing services.
March 14, 2022, 10:55:20 AM
I used Wasabi a few times thinking it would be easier than JoinMarket... and maybe it is but that doesn't outweigh the disadvantages like minimum amounts and exorbitant fees. And JoinMarket effort is mainly just a one-time setup thing and it's reasonably safe for my purposes if used with Tor.
JoinMarket nodes decide to sign or not to sign the TX so I don't think this type of censorship would work.
Yeah especially if they get subpoenaed. Their TOS doesn't seem to say that they don't keep logs.
3, 4. Maybe Joinmarket, although if this is a precedent then expect Whirlpool and Joinmarket to join the censorship.
JoinMarket nodes decide to sign or not to sign the TX so I don't think this type of censorship would work.
If they are willing to ban certain inputs, then it won't be long before they are willing to cooperate with blockchain analysis and de-anonymize transactions altogether. Yet another good entity which has sold out its principles and its users. What a shame.
Yeah especially if they get subpoenaed. Their TOS doesn't seem to say that they don't keep logs.
March 14, 2022, 10:09:08 AM
Hmmm just when I started testing new Wasabi 2.0 testnet version 
First we had voting for ban of proof-of-work in European Parliament and now this news concerning Wasabi wallet and zkSNACKs coordinator.
They are obviously pushing hard on all fronts and regular users don't even know how to react with all this changes related with bitcoin regulations.
I think this could move people away from Wasabi to something that I tested last year and I think it's superior privacy project called Mercury wallet.
More information can be found in Mercury wallet topic:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/mercury-wallet-mercury-layer-privacy-for-bitcoin-5334221
First we had voting for ban of proof-of-work in European Parliament and now this news concerning Wasabi wallet and zkSNACKs coordinator.
They are obviously pushing hard on all fronts and regular users don't even know how to react with all this changes related with bitcoin regulations.
I think this could move people away from Wasabi to something that I tested last year and I think it's superior privacy project called Mercury wallet.
More information can be found in Mercury wallet topic:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/mercury-wallet-mercury-layer-privacy-for-bitcoin-5334221
March 14, 2022, 05:04:39 AM
I haven't used Wasabi for a while, but I won't be using it again.
If they are willing to ban certain inputs, then it won't be long before they are willing to cooperate with blockchain analysis and de-anonymize transactions altogether. Yet another good entity which has sold out its principles and its users. What a shame.
Still, it seems that Wasabi has never been as safe as we all think:
If they are willing to ban certain inputs, then it won't be long before they are willing to cooperate with blockchain analysis and de-anonymize transactions altogether. Yet another good entity which has sold out its principles and its users. What a shame.
Still, it seems that Wasabi has never been as safe as we all think:
Using a capability that is being disclosed here for the first time, Chainalysis de-mixed the Wasabi transactions and tracked their output to four exchanges.
March 14, 2022, 05:00:57 AM
It definitely had to come from somewhere, external pressure, etc. As long as the devs are known, and their tech (in this case CJ) is used for activity enforcement's come to know of, they're going to have to comply (or face some very unsavoury penalty to be sure).
MetaMask I expected, not Wasabi so soon but yeah, probably naive to think that they could have gone on without getting tapped. Sucks ass, but we're going to have to increase the threshold for our worse expectations.
MetaMask I expected, not Wasabi so soon but yeah, probably naive to think that they could have gone on without getting tapped. Sucks ass, but we're going to have to increase the threshold for our worse expectations.
Things like this should definitely be expected to come at some point if you think realistically. But yea — kinda earlier than expected, but at the same time I think we already saw mixers get pursued by the authorities so I guess I'm not THAT surprised.
Anyway, wish some devs would just fork the privacy coinjoin stuff and integrate it to Bitcoin Core; if it's possible, that is.
March 14, 2022, 03:58:19 AM
So where is this censorship going to stop? Are they going to say we are no longer accepting users from country A, B, C, D? Or claim the government ordered them to censor a list of addresses?
Thinking realistically — it's not going to stop. And yea, I'm pretty sure it's either due to government intervention or that they're taking extra safety precautions because they expect the government to interfere. It totally sucks, but I really don't blame them for the decision.
It definitely had to come from somewhere, external pressure, etc. As long as the devs are known, and their tech (in this case CJ) is used for activity enforcement's come to know of, they're going to have to comply (or face some very unsavoury penalty to be sure).
MetaMask I expected, not Wasabi so soon but yeah, probably naive to think that they could have gone on without getting tapped. Sucks ass, but we're going to have to increase the threshold for our worse expectations.
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