The disappointing outcome of BRICS 2024

DrBeer

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What great news from the BRICS members ! News from friends united by strong friendship to oppose the west

China's largest ports have closed the entrance for tankers of Moscow's “shadow fleet” !
Shandong Port Group has banned tankers under US sanctions from entering its ports in the eastern Chinese province. Many refineries there are major importers of oil from countries under US embargo.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-shandong-port-group-blacklists-us-sanctioned-oil-vessels-say-traders-2025-01-07/

Although I understand China - with Russia, its raw material and obedient appendage, you can do whatever you want, it will obediently fulfill any whim of China, because it is one of the few countries that, even though it is pennies and in yuan, but pays the rogue country.

Well, we understand perfectly well that China understands too - if we limit the shadow fleet of the terrorist country, it will be forced to look for other ways to sell oil, and almost the only option will be to sell oil through a pipeline.... TO CHINA ! And China will say - we bought at 40 dollars per barrel, but these surpluses are ready to buy at ...20 dollars (of course with payment in yuan) ! Or freeze your wells ! The friendship between master and slave looks like this

DrBeer

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Quote from: WillyAp on January 06, 2025, 09:12:33 AM

Quote from: fullhdpixel on January 05, 2025, 10:09:42 AM

The oil was the first thing that dollar got to the global stage, while it's true that USD is used more now, if you go back in history, you will see that America, when they were dealing with just farming mostly, had to sell their products and get rich, with either gold as payment from other nations, or sometimes even payment in their currency, because when USA was being formed, it wasn't dollars that was so powerful.

The Dollar lost importance on products like oil.

As a tool for many privateers the dollar gained on popularity though.
That should make clear that the actors which would like to act without control have something to hide.

Have you seen the panama papers? Many politicians are involved in grey area finance.

Not that it was lost, it is more correct to say it was replaced by the Euro, because until the realization of the single European currency, European countries also bought oil for dollars. After that they switched to Ecu and then to Euro. So it is quite a normal picture here.
The second factor is the fact that a significant part of oil, which was previously sold by Russia to the market, is now not sold for dollars, but for yuan and rupees, which also affects the share of dollar settlements. But in this case it is not because Russia has decided not to sell for dollars, but because it cannot sell for dollars

WillyAp

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Quote from: fullhdpixel on January 05, 2025, 10:09:42 AM

The oil was the first thing that dollar got to the global stage, while it's true that USD is used more now, if you go back in history, you will see that America, when they were dealing with just farming mostly, had to sell their products and get rich, with either gold as payment from other nations, or sometimes even payment in their currency, because when USA was being formed, it wasn't dollars that was so powerful.

The Dollar lost importance on products like oil.

As a tool for many privateers the dollar gained on popularity though.
That should make clear that the actors which would like to act without control have something to hide.

Have you seen the panama papers? Many politicians are involved in grey area finance.

fullhdpixel

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Quote from: DrBeer on January 03, 2025, 06:25:31 AM

The peculiarity of the dollar is that the whole world recognizes it, and gladly accepts payment in it. Because it is convenient and profitable..... You don't need to have a bunch of multi-currency accounts, you don't need to reevaluate the cost of goods in different currencies depending on the situation, you just get a dollar for your goods or services, and just pay in dollars for the goods or services you need.
No one has ever prohibited the BRICS from settling accounts within an organization in their local currencies, in case anyone has forgotten. Nor has anyone forbidden to use the dollar, and not only it, for settlements with other countries or unions that, for example, do not trust the ruble, real or yuan, but prefer it. And there are a lot of objective reasons not to trust these papers. But some people have turned their rhetoric in the framework of the union from “let's create a good economic union” to “let's crap on the U.S., which has offended us, with your hands, because we do not want to worsen relations with the U.S. We have so many problems.

The oil was the first thing that dollar got to the global stage, while it's true that USD is used more now, if you go back in history, you will see that America, when they were dealing with just farming mostly, had to sell their products and get rich, with either gold as payment from other nations, or sometimes even payment in their currency, because when USA was being formed, it wasn't dollars that was so powerful.

But gradually, with automobile industry being taken over by Americans easily at the start, and still pretty much leader even today, we saw oil became something of importance, and dollar was used to not just calculate the price of it, but also when trading globally.

So nowadays it's the online world, when someone from Nigeria, does a deal with someone from Qatar, neither use their own currency, they both deal in dollars. So as you can see, the whole world, when dealing with each other, even when America is not involved, uses dollar as currency. Just go take a look at "fiverr" website, you will see everyone around the world accepts dollars as payment.

WillyAp

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Quote from: DrBeer on January 03, 2025, 01:08:21 PM

The question arises - if they got away from “evil” in the form of dollars, moreover did not print money, where did the wild inflation come from ?

Well there is the government and there are the connected people.
Rumors go that plane loads of $ arrived and the de facto dollarization was born.
Yes the printing went on before an election and no the no printing period is to blame for shortages.
Every bank with access to national currency has some truckloads of elderly who pull that money and put it into circulation. Now you might imagine you could go and withdraw 100 000 of the national currency, but no the bank would run out of money.

The wild inflation comes from wild printing before elections, just to finance those.
The price control was actually much more weird, Venezuelan products went abroad. That is when "la huida" was born.
The flight, translated, making people run away from those happenings, Especially the people relying on government handouts.

DrBeer

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Quote from: WillyAp on January 03, 2025, 11:02:15 AM

Quote from: DrBeer on January 03, 2025, 06:25:31 AM

Nor has anyone forbidden to use the dollar, and not only it, for settlements with other countries or unions that, for example, do not trust the ruble, real or yuan, but prefer it.

In Zimbabwe, Venezuela I guess North Corea too, the $ was forbidden. Later one only till the people dollarized the country by themselves, That was due to a severe shortage of (physical) national currency. The central bank did not work on printing their own money.

Its hard to find info about that time.
Here is some detail:

https://archive.ph/4by8M
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/30/world/americas/venezuela-hyperinflation-100-bolivar-maduro.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%93present_economic_crisis_in_Venezuela

The question arises - if they got away from “evil” in the form of dollars, moreover did not print money, where did the wild inflation come from ? ! Sereno Korea is a world in a “petri dish” - total state regulation, isolation, and “wonderful prices”. It's like in the USSR - the state regulated prices, valued the dollar at 0.68 rubles, but the real value of the dollar was more than 10 rubles per dollar and the market was a total shortage of even the most primitive goods

WillyAp

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Quote from: DrBeer on January 03, 2025, 06:25:31 AM

Nor has anyone forbidden to use the dollar, and not only it, for settlements with other countries or unions that, for example, do not trust the ruble, real or yuan, but prefer it.

In Zimbabwe, Venezuela I guess North Corea too, the $ was forbidden. Later one only till the people dollarized the country by themselves, That was due to a severe shortage of (physical) national currency. The central bank did not work on printing their own money.

Its hard to find info about that time.
Here is some detail:

https://archive.ph/4by8M
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/12/30/world/americas/venezuela-hyperinflation-100-bolivar-maduro.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013%E2%80%93present_economic_crisis_in_Venezuela

DrBeer

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Quote from: Abiky on December 31, 2024, 08:57:01 PM

Quote from: WillyAp on December 27, 2024, 09:21:40 AM

You shouldn't forget the one thing, the exception to the rule: States cannot go bankrupt.
They only can declare default, or print.

Of course they can't. After all, it's their own currency. Governments can manipulate the economy to their own benefit by instructing the central bank to either tackle inflation or increase the money supply. It's their game. They will just keep printing money like there's no tomorrow. The ones that will be affected are the people. Especially those who're poor. The rich will just keep getting richer by "playing the game".

While governments can play with their own currencies, they're unable to force countries to use them. If the whole world decides to ditch the USD, it will be game over for the US. As simple as that. BRICS is constantly adding new members to the bloc, so the "de-dollarization" process is certain. Once they devise a new currency backed by BTC or Gold, USD's position as the reserve currency will be no more. Who knows how long will it take for the American empire to collapse?

The peculiarity of the dollar is that the whole world recognizes it, and gladly accepts payment in it. Because it is convenient and profitable..... You don't need to have a bunch of multi-currency accounts, you don't need to reevaluate the cost of goods in different currencies depending on the situation, you just get a dollar for your goods or services, and just pay in dollars for the goods or services you need.
No one has ever prohibited the BRICS from settling accounts within an organization in their local currencies, in case anyone has forgotten. Nor has anyone forbidden to use the dollar, and not only it, for settlements with other countries or unions that, for example, do not trust the ruble, real or yuan, but prefer it. And there are a lot of objective reasons not to trust these papers. But some people have turned their rhetoric in the framework of the union from “let's create a good economic union” to “let's crap on the U.S., which has offended us, with your hands, because we do not want to worsen relations with the U.S. We have so many problems.

SATWAT

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Quote from: WillyAp on January 01, 2025, 03:02:22 PM

Quote from: Abiky on December 31, 2024, 08:57:01 PM

If the whole world decides to ditch the USD, it will be game over for the US. As simple as that. BRICS is constantly adding new members to the bloc, so the "de-dollarization" process is certain.

I doubt that it'll be in my life time, I got some 20 years left to live.
11 Countries use the US Tender as their national currency. The dislike for american policy is not enough to ditch the $.

Completely agreed about this never going to happen even in next 50 years because American policymakers doing things as they needed for keeping things under control.

WillyAp

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Quote from: Abiky on December 31, 2024, 08:57:01 PM

If the whole world decides to ditch the USD, it will be game over for the US. As simple as that. BRICS is constantly adding new members to the bloc, so the "de-dollarization" process is certain.

I doubt that it'll be in my life time, I got some 20 years left to live.
11 Countries use the US Tender as their national currency. The dislike for american policy is not enough to ditch the $.

Abiky

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Quote from: WillyAp on December 27, 2024, 09:21:40 AM

You shouldn't forget the one thing, the exception to the rule: States cannot go bankrupt.
They only can declare default, or print.

Of course they can't. After all, it's their own currency. Governments can manipulate the economy to their own benefit by instructing the central bank to either tackle inflation or increase the money supply. It's their game. They will just keep printing money like there's no tomorrow. The ones that will be affected are the people. Especially those who're poor. The rich will just keep getting richer by "playing the game".

While governments can play with their own currencies, they're unable to force countries to use them. If the whole world decides to ditch the USD, it will be game over for the US. As simple as that. BRICS is constantly adding new members to the bloc, so the "de-dollarization" process is certain. Once they devise a new currency backed by BTC or Gold, USD's position as the reserve currency will be no more. Who knows how long will it take for the American empire to collapse?

WillyAp

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You shouldn't forget the one thing, the exception to the rule: States cannot go bankrupt.
They only can declare default, or print.

DrBeer

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Very interesting information came from an insider from Moscow. Based on the results of the meeting, the so-called “BRICS2024”.
1. The attempt to play on the BRICS expansion in order to include new members in the organization failed. First of all, those who will vote synchronously with Russia. That is, to strengthen Russia's own weight in the BRICS structure. Especially since Putin already has a sad experience of losing control over the SCO....
2. “To get a demonstration of support in the war against Ukraine” .... A complete failure !
3. Failure to fight sanctions and to build on the BRICS organization an economic system that does not respond to US and EU attempts to impose sanctions on a number of states. It was crucial for Putin to get some sort of sharp anti-Western declaration.
4. Failure: declare de-dolarization and, if possible, announce a new “digital currency”

DrBeer

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Quote from: tottong on December 11, 2024, 10:12:12 PM

Quote from: WillyAp on December 11, 2024, 10:26:03 AM

On what planet are you living on?
Have you ever bought something internationally and sold that locally?

In theory countries could all be brothers, The practice it looks quiete different.

LOL
Do you understand the previous discussion and know what is being talked about.
It is not as simple as it sounds and countries can be brothers is true, but there are always interests that are fought for. If it were not possible you would never see cases of war just because of territorial issues, economy and so on.

Quote from: DrBeer on December 11, 2024, 02:20:39 PM

Are you saying that if you produce a certain commodity, the cost of which is for example 100 units of your local currency, and you sell it to a neighboring country via SWIFT through the model currency_neighboring_country <-> DOLLAR <-> currency_your_country, the cost of your commodity increases?! RIGHT ? Explain then how, very interesting opinion, unexpected I would say

PS Ask your producers-exporters if they want to sell their goods for dozens of currencies of other countries, or if it is EXPENSIVE and convenient for them to sell their goods for USD ? And publish here the answers they give....

That's the problem and every commodity purchased in the US we definitely have to use dollars and if calculated in local currency it will be very detrimental and vice versa if we pay debts to that country and payments must be based on dollars.
The rise of the dollar can also weaken the currency of certain countries so that it will have a negative impact on the performance of businesses that depend on exported raw materials.
The countries that join BRICS make different policies and they allow financing using their respective country's currency in conducting international trade and that's all I might know or if my understanding is wrong please correct me.

So you think that if there is some BRICS currency, you will buy goods in the US.... not in dollars? Are you serious now?
About debts - and who forces you to take (for example) debt in Vietnam in dollars ? Take the debt in Vietnamese dong, who forces you to take it in dollars? Or maybe the creditor does not want to give debt in local currency, whose stability differs from stable currencies (dollar, euro,...).
Can you give me a logical answer to these questions ?
PS Perhaps I misunderstood you, then please clarify, because the above arguments do not withstand any, even the simplest criticism, and look very unconvincing.....

danadc

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Quote from: tottong on December 09, 2024, 11:01:32 PM

Quote from: danadc on December 09, 2024, 07:43:41 PM

What I think is that because of these things, those 40 countries that want to join the BRICS have to be directly against the dollar and the USA, and few countries say so in public, because it is known that the USA has a lot of power worldwide, it is perhaps fear, but for me the dollar still dominates and now that a very patriotic president is coming in, he will take great care of that heritage that the dollar is the dominant currency, for me the only currency that can go against everything is the btc and apart from that it seems that the USA will be PRO BTC, it will be very difficult to dethrone the dollar.

Fighting a system that is already strong is not easy and it can have economic and geopolitical impacts for the countries that join it.
This is a concern although now it does not have much effect on the countries that join BRICS.
The US has a big influence in the geopolitical course of the world and they know what they can do when a country starts to oppose the dollar policy.
Even if bitcoin could fight the dominance of the dollar I am not so sure it would work because bitcoin was not created for this.

Some countries that have joined BRICS certainly understand the impacts and risks they will face, even though most countries are trying to get out of the current dollar dominance.

It's true, btc was not created for that but to have freedom, so in this case it is not that it is against it, but the best alternative to consider, I do not see the dollar bad, nor the BRICS, in some way each BRICS country will benefit, why not choose BTC over all this? We live in a world with a lot of fiat money, the most reliable, but we know that this is not the case, so there are BRICS, and this prospers for me the main thing is to always have the necessary money without depending on any country, that is also what btc is for, which is above all this, if the dominance of the dollar falls due to the BRICS it will not be bad either, more opportunities open up the block that should be sought.

WillyAp

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Quote from: tottong on December 11, 2024, 10:12:12 PM

LOL
Do you understand the previous discussion and know what is being talked about.
It is not as simple as it sounds and countries can be brothers is true, but there are always interests that are fought for. If it were not possible you would never see cases of war just because of territorial issues, economy and so on.

Sure but do you?
BRICS has meetings, a BRICS lending Authority, but that is about all there is. Not even 1 dinar has been lend since its formation in 2015:

Quote

The legal basis is formed by the Treaty for the Establishment of a BRICS Contingent Reserve Arrangement, signed at Fortaleza, Brazil on 15 July 2014. It entered into force upon ratification by all BRICS states, announced at the 7th BRICS summit in July 2015.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS_Contingent_Reserve_Arrangement

The CRA:

Quote

The BRICS Contingent Reserve Arrangement (CRA), established by Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa, marks a significant stride toward enhancing financial stability and providing a safeguard against global liquidity pressures among these emerging economies.

https://bricstoday.com/reinforcing-financial-stability-an-overview-of-the-brics-contingent-reserve-arrangement-cra/

BRICS is a very ambitious project and as most ambitious projects there is a Road map:

Quote

This Road map is aimed at building strategic partnership of the BRICS states in the energy field through appropriate coordination of policies, promotion of energy trade, investments and research as well as technological cooperation. It provides for use of various BRICS mechanisms and close interaction between
stakeholders including government agencies, business, expert and academic communities.

The Road map proposes a staged approach and assumes that specific projects will be determined by interested stakeholders as a result of in-depth
analysis of interests, possibilities and obstacles on the road towards joint endeavors in the energy field. In principle the Road map is intended to cover five-year cycle; however the pace of reaching results will depend primarily on participants’ engagement.

https://yeabrics.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/852983.pdf

It reads like a propaganda pamphlet of any political party.

BRICS is the answer to the EU, the North American Freetrade Block. Will it happen? It looks as if not.

Oluwa-btc

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Quote from: DrBeer on October 27, 2024, 07:49:25 AM

Quote from: _act_ on October 27, 2024, 07:44:00 AM

BRICS are expanding. From 4 countries BRIC to 5 countries BRICS. Now they have expanded and they are 10 countries. Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, UAE, Iran, Egypt and Ethiopia.

They added partner countries recently. They are: Algeria, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, Indonesia, Kazakhstan, Malaysia, Nigeria, Thailand, Turkey, Uganda, Uzbekistan and Vietnam.

As more countries will join BRICS, their dedollarization plan chance to succeed is decreasing.

Quantity absolutely does not mean quality ! Tell me, what benefit for example Cuba will bring to BRICS ?

Have you ever been to Cuba? I have been there, that is why I am asking you this question, and I am very much waiting for an answer

The second problem is mentioned above - some of the participants do not aim at economic changes at all, but pursue their own selfish goals, far from building a strong economic union.

It's so much efforts on this BRICS journey entirely,the whole time this arrangements were going on,each and every other person/country had made so much engagements and activities planned and mapped out for personal achievable reasons.The fact they see every opportunity themselves through this would implement more for their personal/selfish interests.

tottong

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Quote from: WillyAp on December 11, 2024, 10:26:03 AM

On what planet are you living on?
Have you ever bought something internationally and sold that locally?

In theory countries could all be brothers, The practice it looks quiete different.

LOL
Do you understand the previous discussion and know what is being talked about.
It is not as simple as it sounds and countries can be brothers is true, but there are always interests that are fought for. If it were not possible you would never see cases of war just because of territorial issues, economy and so on.

Quote from: DrBeer on December 11, 2024, 02:20:39 PM

Are you saying that if you produce a certain commodity, the cost of which is for example 100 units of your local currency, and you sell it to a neighboring country via SWIFT through the model currency_neighboring_country <-> DOLLAR <-> currency_your_country, the cost of your commodity increases?! RIGHT ? Explain then how, very interesting opinion, unexpected I would say

PS Ask your producers-exporters if they want to sell their goods for dozens of currencies of other countries, or if it is EXPENSIVE and convenient for them to sell their goods for USD ? And publish here the answers they give....

That's the problem and every commodity purchased in the US we definitely have to use dollars and if calculated in local currency it will be very detrimental and vice versa if we pay debts to that country and payments must be based on dollars.
The rise of the dollar can also weaken the currency of certain countries so that it will have a negative impact on the performance of businesses that depend on exported raw materials.
The countries that join BRICS make different policies and they allow financing using their respective country's currency in conducting international trade and that's all I might know or if my understanding is wrong please correct me.

DrBeer

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Quote from: tottong on December 10, 2024, 11:01:12 PM

Quote from: DrBeer on December 10, 2024, 04:31:44 PM

And can you reasonably explain the benefit of abandoning the dollar to, for example, India or China ? For countries - outcasts, yes, it is an attempt to solve their absolutely deserved problems caused by their inadequate behavior. For normal countries, the dollar is a convenient and high-quality solution for international settlements. Yes, with what I agree - the U.S. benefits from it ! They just happened to be smarter at a certain point in time, and used the moment to their advantage.

Overall the benefits of abandoning the dollar can improve the economy for the countries you are talking about because they can regulate global trade themselves using local currencies so that every time it is done it will actually strengthen the local currency, exports and imports will also be more profitable because they can be regulated using the local currency of each country and vice versa regarding foreign exchange reserves.
BRICS offers this to countries that join and they can conduct transactions using their local currencies, that's what I know from several sources that I have read, but even so it is still quite difficult for some countries to get out of the dominance of the dollar because they are still quite dependent on it until now.

Are you saying that if you produce a certain commodity, the cost of which is for example 100 units of your local currency, and you sell it to a neighboring country via SWIFT through the model currency_neighboring_country <-> DOLLAR <-> currency_your_country, the cost of your commodity increases?! RIGHT ? Explain then how, very interesting opinion, unexpected I would say

PS Ask your producers-exporters if they want to sell their goods for dozens of currencies of other countries, or if it is EXPENSIVE and convenient for them to sell their goods for USD ? And publish here the answers they give....

WillyAp

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Quote from: tottong on December 10, 2024, 11:01:12 PM

Overall the benefits of abandoning the dollar can improve the economy for the countries you are talking about because they can regulate global trade themselves using local currencies so that every time it is done it will actually strengthen the local currency, exports and imports will also be more profitable because they can be regulated using the local currency of each country and vice versa regarding foreign exchange reserves.
BRICS offers this to countries that join and they can conduct transactions using their local currencies, that's what I know from several sources that I have read, but even so it is still quite difficult for some countries to get out of the dominance of the dollar because they are still quite dependent on it until now.

On what planet are you living on?
Have you ever bought something internationally and sold that locally?

In theory countries could all be brothers, The practice it looks quiete different.

Topic: The disappointing outcome of BRICS 2024 (Read 1650 times)