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Topic: The duplicate input vulnerability shouldn't be forgotten - page 3. (Read 2276 times)

legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
No, sir. Your jealous comments are amateurish at best.

My software might not have been tested as much as satoshi's code base, but its proven to be working very well, has an excellent performance and it's very easy to work with because of its brilliant architecture.
Plus, most of all, it would not have accepted a block with a transaction that spends the same input twice, nor crash upon it. Which is what all this thread is about.
Who exactly was talking about your software? Classic deflection.
You were:
Quote
any attempt at a secondary implementation so far has been amateurish at best.
No; stop using this thread as a means to promote an implementation that has 0 active reviewers (and probably 0 users; excl. the creator).
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1354
aka tonikt
No, sir. Your jealous comments are amateurish at best.

My software might not have been tested as much as satoshi's code base, but its proven to be working very well, has an excellent performance and it's very easy to work with because of its brilliant architecture.
Plus, most of all, it would not have accepted a block with a transaction that spends the same input twice, nor crash upon it. Which is what all this thread is about.
Who exactly was talking about your software? Classic deflection.
You were:
Quote
any attempt at a secondary implementation so far has been amateurish at best.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
No, sir. Your jealous comments are amateurish at best.

My software might not have been tested as much as satoshi's code base, but its proven to be working very well, has an excellent performance and it's very easy to work with because of its brilliant architecture.
Who exactly was talking about your software? Classic deflection.

Plus, most of all, it would not have accepted a block with a transaction that spends the same input twice, nor crash upon it. Which is what all this thread is about.
Lucky.
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1354
aka tonikt
It seems to me that what we're observing here is central planers trying to defend their monopoly.
If you believe that there are central planers and a monopoly, then you don't understand Bitcoin.

And the fact that central planners have been stating for quite long that they "don't care about miners" is most likely only going to accelerate the process.
Miners are often idiots and don't decide anything (they shouldn't anyways).

So if Bitcoin is here to stay, new implementations coming into existence are inevitable.
Many have tried.
this is given that you completely ignore that any attempt at a secondary implementation so far has been amateurish at best.

And no matter how much you'd want to, you can't stop anyone from running a compatible yet alternative implementation of a bitcoin node.
If you want to, then you're free to swim in second-grade garbage. Smiley

No, sir. Your jealous comments are amateurish at best.

My software might not have been tested as much as satoshi's code base, but its proven to be working very well, has an excellent performance and it's very easy to work with because of its brilliant architecture.
Plus, most of all, it would not have accepted a block with a transaction that spends the same input twice, nor crash upon it. Which is what all this thread is about.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
It seems to me that what we're observing here is central planers trying to defend their monopoly.
If you believe that there are central planers and a monopoly, then you don't understand Bitcoin.

And the fact that central planners have been stating for quite long that they "don't care about miners" is most likely only going to accelerate the process.
Miners are often idiots and don't decide anything (they shouldn't anyways).

So if Bitcoin is here to stay, new implementations coming into existence are inevitable.
Many have tried.
this is given that you completely ignore that any attempt at a secondary implementation so far has been amateurish at best.

And no matter how much you'd want to, you can't stop anyone from running a compatible yet alternative implementation of a bitcoin node.
If you want to, then you're free to swim in second-grade garbage. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2053
Merit: 1354
aka tonikt
It seems to me that what we're observing here is central planers trying to defend their monopoly.
And need I to remind you that the very reason for Bitcoin to exist, being such a phenomenal success, is breaking a monopoly of central planners? Smiley

I'm not even trying to convince anyone that this monopoly is a bad thing, simply because I think that it isn't going to matter. If Bitcoin is here to stay, it is just a matter of time before the market players build alternative implementations, customized for their own needs. And the fact that central planners have been stating for quite long that they "don't care about miners" is most likely only going to accelerate the process.

I know for a fact that making a new implementation is not as hard as the legends say. With a proper team it can be done for a reasonable amount of money and the money invested is meant to pay back later.

Let's be honest, the current bitcoin core software/implementation is a direct inheritance of the prototype made by Satoshi. Some components were upgraded or replaced, but the general architecture has not changed since its inception. It's hardly the best architecture for any possible application, maybe even not the best architecture for any specific app.

So if Bitcoin is here to stay, new implementations coming into existence are inevitable. Not only because there are better ways to do what bitcoin core does, but also because there is (will be) too much money at sake and the stakeholders will not be willing to risk their money by relying on only one software implementation and the responsiveness of one team of people who don't even work for them.

And no matter how much you'd want to, you can't stop anyone from running a compatible yet alternative implementation of a bitcoin node.
legendary
Activity: 3724
Merit: 3063
Leave no FUD unchallenged
I know this is probably the last argument most people want to hear, but is this not a case where more independent implementations would result in less risk?
No. This is nonsense that has been pushed by those actively trying to co-opt the network  

Slightly OT, but can a consensus based system ever really be co-opted, though?  Everyone seems to have their own slightly different ideas of what makes Bitcoin what it is.  If you find yourself on a minority fork, it's because you aren't following consensus.  It's the numbers that matter, not what any one person believes Bitcoin "should" be.  Even though we might disagree with them, many BCH users will argue that Bitcoin has already been co-opted, but the simple fact remains they don't have the numbers behind them to do anything with that assertion.  So they have to settle for being an altcoin.  That's just how it is.  A day may come where you find yourself on the wrong side of consensus.  If that day comes, you would then find yourself deciding whether it's more important to stick with what you think it should be, or to accept it for what it is.  Maybe that's all getting a bit philosophical, though.

Back to the main purpose of the thread, though.  Yes, there are definitely some issues with multiple implementations if it's done in the wrong way.  It seems there's no simple answer to this one.  Aside from the things gmaxwell and achow101 mentioned, I suspect one of the primary flaws with multiple implementations is that much of the code would simply be copied from other implementations anyway.  It wouldn't necessarily ensure catching any present faults, even if people were taking the effort to run two different clients to compare results.  If they've inadvertently duplicated the bug, it won't make any difference.  Much like how any of the altcoins that may have been affected didn't spot duplicate inputs either.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
I know this is probably the last argument most people want to hear, but is this not a case where more independent implementations would result in less risk?
No. This is nonsense that has been pushed by those actively trying to co-opt the network (or propagated by trolls such as franky). Sure, it would be beneficial to have some competition on e.g. the p2p code but that's about it. More implementations as a side-effects can (and undoubtedly will) lead to even more problems, which will most certainly be harder to solve once multiple node implementations of the network start disagreeing due to whatever reason (be it a bug in this case). <- this is given that you completely ignore that any attempt at a secondary implementation so far has been amateurish at best.

Multiple implementations *increase* risk.
^

Someone on IRC was pointing out the rather disappointing number of bitcoin sites that were currently managing to expose the bitcoind rpc to the public internet.  Sad
Sadly, yes. Project idea: a open-source, complete web implementation (frontend and whatnot).

Back on topic, I think there's two sets of Core users: those who run their node and rarely update it, and the more enthusiastic ones who keep up with upgrades. It might make sense to have a LTS version with more thoroughly tested and vetted consensus critical code (that's proven itself), and a regular version. I think more choice and flexibility could be useful here.
LTS version adoption would make it significantly harder to do a fork bugfix/upgrade whenever it gets needed though.
full member
Activity: 174
Merit: 102
* kain134 eating popcorn.

Maybe it's time to promote more Bitcoin Knots and other node software that is not Core? Seems to me like having multiple implementations that are not forks of another another will provide a resilience against bugs.



1) Bitcoin Knots *is* Bitcoin Core plus some enhancements and perhaps different defaults, AFAIK.

2) Read the thread. Multiple implementations *increase* risk.
AGD
legendary
Activity: 2069
Merit: 1164
Keeper of the Private Key
I hope we will end up with a solution, that is focused on more testing AND the advancement of new coding talents, by the regulars - maybe through Bitcoin specific coding challenges/training, bounties etc.
Also, if coders are being paid by a company, that is depending on a healthy Bitcoin network, this is obv. good for everyone in the network.

I also see an extended testing as the best solution to the intentional injecting of bad code by infiltrated state/organisation/company actors, which is probably already taken place at this time.

newbie
Activity: 14
Merit: 0
* kain134 eating popcorn.

Maybe it's time to promote more Bitcoin Knots and other node software that is not Core? Seems to me like having multiple implementations that are not forks of another another will provide a resilience against bugs.

hero member
Activity: 688
Merit: 565
I know this is probably the last argument most people want to hear, but is this not a case where more independent implementations would result in less risk?  If you maintain that one particular client should form the "backbone of the network", you have to consider what happens if that backbone breaks.  If there were a wider variety of clients being run, there may have been less of a threat to the network overall?

Core have done exceptional work, but at the end of the day, they're still only human.  Assigning more people to keep an eye on one codebase might help mitigate faults, but if there's only one main codebase, there's still going to be an issue if an error slips through the net.  Hence my belief that more codebases would create a stronger safeguard.
What many people do not realize is that having people run different implementations makes it easier for attackers to partition the network and thus harder to resolve situations where vulnerabilities are exploited. Network partitioning can cause multiple blockchain forks which is a much harder situation to resolve than a single fork or an entire network shutdown.  It is not just that some nodes will go down and the rest are up and the network is still running. If the attack is directed in a certain way, miners will be separated and no longer connected to each other which then causes forks. Network partitioning is a serious issue, and running different implementations makes it easier for attackers to partition the network. So having multiple implementations and recommending that people run alternative software is really not a good thing.

That being said, having multiple implementations is good for the individual who runs multiple nodes with different implementations. With multiple nodes each with different software, attacks exploiting critical bugs lets them know if an attack is going on. If everyone ran multiple nodes with different implementations, then multiple implementations are fine. The network would not shutdown and there wouldn't be any network partitioning. But not everyone is going to do that.


Excellent point here. Totally agree the risk of managing multiple forks is much greater

What I also wanted to add is why this bug was not detected in testnet3 ? While we don't expect all bug to be detected during code review, most network/consesus related bugs should be detected in testnet

Perhaps the less use/importance of testnet is a cause of worry. If testnet3 mirrors mainnet in size and traffic, and  we give 6 months staging time for each release on testnet, we could have a more robust protection.  
staff
Activity: 4172
Merit: 8419
run multiple implementations of bitcoin (e.g. btcd and bitcoin core) and only transact while they are in agreeance.
Monitoring that way can be interesting (use old versions too)... but running them anywhere near proximity to production machines may increase the risk of RCEs and resource exhaustion attacks. Though since you only need a yes/no from the monitoring it could be isolated without too much trouble.  If this were considered a best practice, though, it would further increase the barrier of entry for participation.

You are a lot more advanced than many Bitcoin using businesses: you actually report bugs and help test fixes. For many others, it's remarkable if they do anything more than call out to a bc.i api. Someone on IRC was pointing out the rather disappointing number of bitcoin sites that were currently managing to expose the bitcoind rpc to the public internet.  Sad
legendary
Activity: 2557
Merit: 1886
One thing I've always wanted to do -- but have never had the energy for -- was to run multiple implementations of bitcoin (e.g. btcd and bitcoin core) and only transact while they are in agreeance.

For most bitcoin businesses, a few hours of not processing deposits/withdrawals is actually not a big deal, and happens pretty regularly anyway (for no fault of bitcoin itself). While on the other hand transacting after an accidental chain-split could really be devastating.
copper member
Activity: 2870
Merit: 2298
Obviously, it would be much safer for a community to take care of one implementation with fewer lines of codes.
I don't think it is necessarily best to rely on the "community" to ensure that each implementation of a bitcoin node is secure/safe to use.

Members of the community might have, at most a few million dollars worth of bitcoin of their own money at stake, but even if they make a mistake, they are unlikely to personally lose any money. On the other hand, there are several bitcoin related businesses that have billions of dollars worth of customer money, and hundreds of millions (and in some cases billions) of dollars of equity who have serious incentives to ensure these types of bugs don't pop up with software in production, and they have incentives to have fail-safes in place to prevent any actual losses if/when these types of bugs make it through the cracks.

I would point out that I am not aware of any major exchange "pausing" deposits and/or withdrawals immidiately after this bug was discovered, however anyone running the relevant software would have taken some time to stop deposits/withdrawals to upgrade their nodes (which would include reviewing the code). This leads me to believe that the majority of exchanges/businesses are running their own custom node software, maybe not exclusively, but this is at least part of what they are running. 

legendary
Activity: 3780
Merit: 4842
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
...I am one of the only project contributors who actually takes the time to even try to communicate with people who seem to be significantly confused. 99.9% of the time other people will just ignore them completely. I don't think it helps improve the level of discourse if everyone puts themselves in a high castle and doesn't even hear out their opposition or respect them enough to even argue the case.  But at least when I'm critical of your actions I'm willing to be precise enough that you can defend or contextualize them... or even admit a mistake.  I've certainly made mistakes, but at least I've tried to do something good. I fee like your comments here-- with name calling like "incompetent"-- are saying that you'd prefer a world where no one does anything (except maybe insult and conspiracy theorize about others), because if the they do enough good things you'll ignore all that and attack them for the few things that could be improved.  If that isn't what you're going for, I'd really like you to help me understand where you're coming from....


OT:
I would just like to point out that I, and I'm sure there are many others, appreciate the effort you put into responding even though we do not insert ourselfs into the conversation because we know that we are not well enough versed in the code and/or game theory. For everyone in the conversation there are thousands that did not ask the same question no matter what it was. So I'm just posting that it is appreciated that you spend the time to do so. I also appreciate the fact that when I go back and research something I usually find a post from you and that is a post that I can take to the bank. Ok, enough brown nosing, keep up the good work. Smiley
full member
Activity: 123
Merit: 470

You apologize, only to spit in my face with more vicious attacks. My Reddit account was compromised at that time, but I quickly regained access to it. I told this fact to a few people who contacted me in concern, and thought the issue was put to rest, but it turns out it's being intentionally resurfaced to discredit me.

And "asking Blockstream for money" because I was "broke"? Seriously? I contacted a whole bunch of businesses about sponsorships for bitcoin.org, something I've done for a while. I've pasted the email below. Your timeline of events is wrong, the compromised posts are from Sept 2017, but this email was sent in May 2016. So it wasn't "a few weeks later" that my Reddit account posted those things. You are being intentionally deceptive, vague and making up timelines to make me seem more erratic and malicious. I might be distrustful of Blockstream (I don't trust most American technology companies, and I didn't trust the Foundation too much either), but when you make up timelines, misconstrue things, and behave like an amateur NSA PSYOP agent, it doesn't help your case.

Back on topic, I think there's two sets of Core users: those who run their node and rarely update it, and the more enthusiastic ones who keep up with upgrades. It might make sense to have a LTS version with more thoroughly tested and vetted consensus critical code (that's proven itself), and a regular version. I think more choice and flexibility could be useful here.

Obviously it won't catch all bugs, there will always be bugs, but it might help minimize it. Though with all the eyes on the code now after the recent bug, especially around optimizations, maybe more people will be ready to point out critical flaws.

Quote
Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 11:38:52 +0000
From: =?UTF-8?Q?C=C3=B8bra?= <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Gregory Maxwell" <[email protected]>
Message-Id: <[email protected]>
Subject: Bitcoin.org Sponsorship
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
    boundary="----=_Part_2033_1126291026.1464608332543"
X-Priority: Medium
User-Agent: Zoho Mail
X-Mailer: Zoho Mail
X-ZohoMail-Sender: Cøbra

------=_Part_2033_1126291026.1464608332543
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hey,

Bitcoin.org is currently looking for a new sponsor (previously we were sponsored by the Bitcoin Foundation) and we were wondering if Blockstream would be interested in supporting the site financially. The site continues to get large increases in traffic, and we want to ensure that the site remains fast, online and secure well into the future. Bitcoin.org is the first place most new users go to learn about bitcoin, it teaches them how Bitcoin works, and helps them get set up with a wallet. The site's content has been translated into many languages, and any user is free to make a pull request on Github to improve the site.


If this opportunity is something that interests you, then please let me know, and we can discuss further the details of a sponsorship arrangement. Thanks.


------=_Part_2033_1126291026.1464608332543
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=
ead>
,sans-serif;'>Hey,

Bitcoin.org is currently looking for =
a new sponsor (previously we were sponsored by the Bitcoin Foundation) and =
we were wondering if Blockstream would be interested in supporting the site=
 financially. The site continues to get large increases in traffic, and we =
want to ensure that the site remains fast, online and secure well into the =
future. Bitcoin.org is the first place most new users go to learn about bit=
coin, it teaches them how Bitcoin works, and helps them get set up with a w=
allet. The site's content has been translated into many languages, and any =
user is free to make a pull request on Github to improve the site.
v>
If this opportunity is something that interests you, then =
please let me know, and we can discuss further the details of a sponsorship=
 arrangement. Thanks.

------=_Part_2033_1126291026.1464608332543--
legendary
Activity: 3416
Merit: 1142
Ιntergalactic Conciliator
I like to add my opinion here to this very interest discussion.
Maybe is time Bitcoin to focus again to be stable unbanking safe heaven money than to be another funky cryptocurrency. For this reason imo Bitcoin must have rarely radical upgrades.
It seems the last two years Bitcoin devs forced by this ridiculous fork and big block drama to be more creative, to prove to everyone that they can bring Bitcoin to the next level, an uneccesry movement imo because bitcoin was not design to be a funky cryptocurrency but a stable decentralised money that everyone can trust value to it.
Unfortunately radical changes to code for 100% will bring and bugs. This happen in every software engineer history even form the most brilliant developers.

Quote
---offtopic---
Cobra account seems to be controlled by different persons and this is the reason why this account has so many different reactions, even his twitter account forget about two month campaign against Halong mining . This account is one other of the many paradoxs in Bitcoin world Tongue. Is a very funny paradox for sure Cheesy
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnZeAqAV4AAJqac.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnZeFeeUUAEeBxQ.jpg
staff
Activity: 4172
Merit: 8419
You have attacked me with character attacks by viciously claiming on Reddit that I had sold my credentials,

This is the post that you're referring to:

Quote
I get the impression that cobra sold his credentials last year: He put up some sketchy warnings about the binaries on bitcoin.org then went quiet for a long time.

When he came back he started posting some really over the top rbtc conspiracy theory nonsense on reddit. When people moved to take action about it he suddenly said "oh my account was hacked" and dropped it. But the account wasn't use for the kind of petty vandalism that you normally see when a hacked account can't otherwise be used... Since then he's been slowly cranking up the psycho behavior, and right now he seems not far from the sudden behavior of the 'hacked' account.

Given that I'm not surprised to see the BCH pumping, and of course ignoring that whatever "better for payments" argument you can currently make for BCH could better be applied to Litecoin (which also has a lower interblock interval, AND segwit) and yet litecoin has mostly gone nowhere.

FWIW, no one wants a POW change more than Bitmain. They crank out chips privately for even obscure POWs then dump them on the public once they've reached diminishing returns on their own production. With sha256d they're competing against a huge installed base. Moreover, Bitmain has gone around unethically and unlawfully claiming patents on basic mining techniques like series wiring the chips to reduce convert costs which were in use prior to Bitmain and where any competitive mining device for any POW would adopt the same techniques.

I apologize for insulting you, it was really not my goal.  I'm not sure what else I was supposed to think when one day you're asking blockstream for money (and suggesting bitcoin.org/maybe you were broke) and then later [edit: I thought it was a few weeks, but it may just be that I only noticed the message then or there might have been more than one. I no longer have my blockstream account so I can't tell] started posting things like Merchant adoption will come naturally once people realize that the other coin is crippled by Blockstream and /u/nullc and that they can't transact without paying outrageous transaction fees. [...] Of course bitcoin.org should be changed to embrace Bitcoin Cash. Blockstream coin is not Bitcoin. [...] It's a form of censorship by Blockstream Core.  [...] This is what AXA invested in them for, to cripple the network. . I'd never seen you say anything like that before. And even more recently you continue to say things that look a lot like it to me, also, also, also (especially weird since you yourself told us downloads on bitcoin.org were unsafe, you seemed to think alternative downloads were a good idea, and then a year later are angry about it), also, also.   It's okay for you to go around suggesting "compromised by the NSA" without not a single shred of evidence, but  you think it's toxic for me to say that I "get [an] impression" and point out an apparent radical change in your behaviour? Sad

Theymos says he thinks you've been consistent all along, I trust him to know, but it's not like my comments were coming out of nowhere.  I had no reason to dislike you previously, in fact almost the sum total of my other interaction with you was stepping up to defend you when I thought people were unfairly attacking you after you said something easily misunderstood (like the 'revise the whitepaper' thing).

Why do you find it so insulting that I wondered if you sold your credentials -- with an explanation of my concerns-- after you start attacking someone whos done AFAIK nothing but support you previously but seem to think it's okay to spread worse claims about other people?

I'd say "what would you do in my shoes"-- but it seems like the answer is that you'd make accusations and not even provide evidence.  Is that really your intent?

Quote
but I remember you
Memory is a tricky thing. In fact, when writing the above I thought you multiple times also posted additional things that turned out to actually be people that responded to the things above agreeing with your attacks, but which weren't actually said by you-- sorry about that, but at least I haven't accused you of those things because I actually checked.

I am one of the only project contributors who actually takes the time to even try to communicate with people who seem to be significantly confused. 99.9% of the time other people will just ignore them completely. I don't think it helps improve the level of discourse if everyone puts themselves in a high castle and doesn't even hear out their opposition or respect them enough to even argue the case.  But at least when I'm critical of your actions I'm willing to be precise enough that you can defend or contextualize them... or even admit a mistake.  I've certainly made mistakes, but at least I've tried to do something good. I fee like your comments here-- with name calling like "incompetent"-- are saying that you'd prefer a world where no one does anything (except maybe insult and conspiracy theorize about others), because if the they do enough good things you'll ignore all that and attack them for the few things that could be improved.  If that isn't what you're going for, I'd really like you to help me understand where you're coming from.

Quote
But in Bitcoin Core, developers can work in their own branches with total freedom, and no red tape,
And no review, which was my point.

Quote
IMO there's no harm in making this step slightly longer
Perhaps, but I don't see how slightly longer connects with your post. Already the major release cycle is six months long.  This issue took two years to discover, making the cycle seven months long would not have made it get detected. But it might plausibly make people take review less seriously.  I guess my point there is that we've already made it a lot more than slightly longer, and tapped out the benefit from doing so, further increases might tip us further into the realm of costs exceeding benefits and there are other things we can do that don't add delays but would do more to prevent serious problems.
full member
Activity: 123
Merit: 470
It would be more productive if you were specific instead of vague. The vague allegations, devoid of context, just come across as toxic themselves-- a character attack, rather than a complaint about something specific that could be handled better.

You have attacked me with character attacks by viciously claiming on Reddit that I had sold my credentials, and even sent me an e-mail out of the blue one day asking how much I "sold out" for. I don't have time to look through your extensive post history on /r/btc, but I remember you spent years wrestling with pigs and constantly harassing and deriding people that wanted to "improve the world". I attacked these people too in similar ways, and many of them were incompetent, but I think you out of all people aren't in a position to preach the value of polite discourse, since you're one of the more toxic/controversial figures in the Core team.

I'm disappointed, I think I explained directly and via analogy as to why this is the case but it doesn't seem to have been communicated to you. Perhaps someone else will give a go at translating the point, if its still unclear. Sad

Yes, this was your analogy:

Imagine a bridge construction crew with generally good safety practices that has a rare fatal accident. Some government bureaucrat swings in and says "you're constructing too fast: it would be okay to construct slower, fill out these 1001 forms in triplicate for each action you take to prevent more problems".  In some kind of theoretical world the extra checks would help, or at least not hurt.  But for most work there is a set of optimal paces where the best work is done.  Fast enough to keep people's minds maximally engaged, slow enough that everything runs smoothly and all necessary precautions can be taken.  We wouldn't be to surprised to see that hypothetical crew's accident rate go up after a change to increase overhead in the name of making things more safe: either efforts that actually improve safety get diverted to safety theatre, or otherwise some people just tune out, assume the procedure is responsible for safety instead of themselves, and ultimately make more errors.

This analogy is flawed and makes no sense. Bridge construction is completely different from software engineering through the open source process. Construction is a linear thing, you can't build multiple "prototypes" of real physical bridges and test them and choose between them, you need to build the entire thing once, and in this context you would be correct that it makes more sense to keep minds maximally engaged. But in Bitcoin Core, developers can work in their own branches with total freedom, and no red tape, so I fail to see how they wouldn't be engaged? There's nothing stopping them from working "optimal paces" in their own branch and then opening a pull request after their sprint to try to get the change merged in. There already exists a testing/review step, IMO there's no harm in making this step slightly longer and encouraging the community to try to break and mess up a new feature. Bounties can be paid to try to break stuff too.

Anyway I'm exiting this discussion because I feel like we're going to go around in circles and derail the thread, and I've said what I wanted to say. I think we should take the personal issues to PM or something. Cheers.
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