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Topic: The Export-Import Bank (Read 4659 times)

Traffic4u
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
The Export-Import Bank
September 30, 2014, 10:59:37 PM
#75
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 29, 2014, 01:09:46 PM
Quote from: ScreamnShout on September 26, 2014, 12:40:39 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 23, 2014, 01:14:27 PM
Crypto currency is also among those better tools.  Government would be better served getting the hang of what it offers before its left behind.
How would crypto currencies better protect US companies from a foreign government placing large orders at US companies and then not paying? It is a standard practice to not pay for goods ordered until delivery (or sometime thereafter) when dealing on a B2B basis.

All a crypto currency would do is provide another payment method when the foreign government does decide to pay (and is not engaging in a trade war)

You are familiar with crypto currency basics, yes?

In addition to another payment method, it is also a better payment method.
Some of the more applicable merits include.
Proof of funds
Validated low friction escrows
Smart contracting

This could provide contract enforcement for order cancellations.  
Cancel an order and still pay some %.  Manufacturer still has the goods and can sell, and also receives compensation for unfair business practice.

Folks whine about not having consumer protections, but they are there for anyone that wants to use them, what is missing isn't the protection, its just missing the protection racket.

I'm no expert in ex-im bank stuff, but these things just seem to be such obviously better mechanisms for solving the problems.  Save the big guns for when they are absolutely needed.  State department has enough to worry about.
In order for this to work the foreign company would need to be willing to put a certain amount of the sale price into (what is effectively) escrow. This is not something that is standard to do today, so any company that asks a foreign company to put money into escrow will be at a disadvantage
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 29, 2014, 01:09:46 PM
#74
Quote from: ScreamnShout on September 26, 2014, 12:40:39 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 23, 2014, 01:14:27 PM
Crypto currency is also among those better tools.  Government would be better served getting the hang of what it offers before its left behind.
How would crypto currencies better protect US companies from a foreign government placing large orders at US companies and then not paying? It is a standard practice to not pay for goods ordered until delivery (or sometime thereafter) when dealing on a B2B basis.

All a crypto currency would do is provide another payment method when the foreign government does decide to pay (and is not engaging in a trade war)

You are familiar with crypto currency basics, yes?

In addition to another payment method, it is also a better payment method.
Some of the more applicable merits include.
Proof of funds
Validated low friction escrows
Smart contracting

This could provide contract enforcement for order cancellations.  
Cancel an order and still pay some %.  Manufacturer still has the goods and can sell, and also receives compensation for unfair business practice.

Folks whine about not having consumer protections, but they are there for anyone that wants to use them, what is missing isn't the protection, its just missing the protection racket.

I'm no expert in ex-im bank stuff, but these things just seem to be such obviously better mechanisms for solving the problems.  Save the big guns for when they are absolutely needed.  State department has enough to worry about.
ScreamnShout
full member
Activity: 206
Merit: 100
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 26, 2014, 12:40:39 AM
#73
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 23, 2014, 01:14:27 PM
Crypto currency is also among those better tools.  Government would be better served getting the hang of what it offers before its left behind.
How would crypto currencies better protect US companies from a foreign government placing large orders at US companies and then not paying? It is a standard practice to not pay for goods ordered until delivery (or sometime thereafter) when dealing on a B2B basis.

All a crypto currency would do is provide another payment method when the foreign government does decide to pay (and is not engaging in a trade war)
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 23, 2014, 01:14:27 PM
#72
Quote from: snappa4ever on September 22, 2014, 12:19:09 AM
In reality, the only entity that can protect the US economy from other government aggressors is the US government. This has nothing to do with domestic politics. The ex-im bank protects the US economy from trade war with other countries. You are implying that AIG and other insurance companies should be able to protect itself and fight in War with other countries.

The only thing that can protect the US Economy are those that are productively participating in that economy.  To the extent people involved in governing skew the economy for and against particular participants, it damages it.

In "reality" the US government is the greatest enemy of the US economy, and the entity best able to wreck it despite its good intentions.

You're suggestion that the ex-im bank is an instrument of war is not so persuasive in justifying it.

Its like cutting off your arm to use as a weapon, sure it extends your reach for the matter at hand, but afterward you are one-armed and there are more fights ahead.  There are better tools to achieve your goal then undue market influence by those subject to political influence.  Yes, even AIG is better, its only partially a government agent, apparently on an as-needed basis.

Crypto currency is also among those better tools.  Government would be better served getting the hang of what it offers before its left behind.
snappa4ever
sr. member
Activity: 374
Merit: 250
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 22, 2014, 12:19:09 AM
#71
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 21, 2014, 03:46:14 PM
Quote from: toleng on September 20, 2014, 03:15:44 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 20, 2014, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: zorke on September 19, 2014, 10:15:54 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 18, 2014, 01:51:13 AM
Quote from: zorke on September 18, 2014, 12:01:14 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 17, 2014, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: itsAj on September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
The ex-im bank is in no way required for political action regarding this concern.
If the ex-im bank is going to take a loss because a country is cancelling orders from US companies in mass, then the US government would likely contact the country via diplomatic channels to try to get these order cancellations to stop.
I'm baffled as to why you think the government needs the ex-im bank for an excuse to do this.
If this is the reason we need it, it is the flimsiest justification for it yet. 
Creating a intermediary bureaucracy so that it can lose money in order to give a reason for foreign policy action?

Even the more obvious justification is better, as a means to extract donations from corporations to political campaigns, and a way to channel the extracted wealth of citizens to advance those interests.  At least there is some perverse logic to that.

It will not lose money. It can use the influence of the government to prevent it from losing money. Private sector insurers would not have this influence.
That people think this is a good thing is also astounding..
How far we have fallen.
How would this not be a good thing? The government protecting the american economy from foreign governments can only be a good thing unless you wish to see the economy fail/decline

A few companies in the pockets of a few government employees !== the US economy.
If the US economy is threatened, the ex-im bank is not a significant factor other than as a measurement tool.
It should not be a government entity.
It should not be subject to political influence and corruption.

It is as wrong when we do it as when "the other guy" does it.
Why be in a race to burn moral authority for no marginal gain and only increased moral hazards?
In reality, the only entity that can protect the US economy from other government aggressors is the US government. This has nothing to do with domestic politics. The ex-im bank protects the US economy from trade war with other countries. You are implying that AIG and other insurance companies should be able to protect itself and fight in War with other countries.
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 21, 2014, 03:46:14 PM
#70
Quote from: toleng on September 20, 2014, 03:15:44 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 20, 2014, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: zorke on September 19, 2014, 10:15:54 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 18, 2014, 01:51:13 AM
Quote from: zorke on September 18, 2014, 12:01:14 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 17, 2014, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: itsAj on September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
The ex-im bank is in no way required for political action regarding this concern.
If the ex-im bank is going to take a loss because a country is cancelling orders from US companies in mass, then the US government would likely contact the country via diplomatic channels to try to get these order cancellations to stop.
I'm baffled as to why you think the government needs the ex-im bank for an excuse to do this.
If this is the reason we need it, it is the flimsiest justification for it yet. 
Creating a intermediary bureaucracy so that it can lose money in order to give a reason for foreign policy action?

Even the more obvious justification is better, as a means to extract donations from corporations to political campaigns, and a way to channel the extracted wealth of citizens to advance those interests.  At least there is some perverse logic to that.

It will not lose money. It can use the influence of the government to prevent it from losing money. Private sector insurers would not have this influence.
That people think this is a good thing is also astounding..
How far we have fallen.
How would this not be a good thing? The government protecting the american economy from foreign governments can only be a good thing unless you wish to see the economy fail/decline

A few companies in the pockets of a few government employees !== the US economy.
If the US economy is threatened, the ex-im bank is not a significant factor other than as a measurement tool.
It should not be a government entity.
It should not be subject to political influence and corruption.

It is as wrong when we do it as when "the other guy" does it.
Why be in a race to burn moral authority for no marginal gain and only increased moral hazards?
toleng
sr. member
Activity: 261
Merit: 250
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 20, 2014, 03:15:44 PM
#69
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 20, 2014, 03:00:43 PM
Quote from: zorke on September 19, 2014, 10:15:54 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 18, 2014, 01:51:13 AM
Quote from: zorke on September 18, 2014, 12:01:14 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 17, 2014, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: itsAj on September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
The ex-im bank is in no way required for political action regarding this concern.
If the ex-im bank is going to take a loss because a country is cancelling orders from US companies in mass, then the US government would likely contact the country via diplomatic channels to try to get these order cancellations to stop.
I'm baffled as to why you think the government needs the ex-im bank for an excuse to do this.
If this is the reason we need it, it is the flimsiest justification for it yet. 
Creating a intermediary bureaucracy so that it can lose money in order to give a reason for foreign policy action?

Even the more obvious justification is better, as a means to extract donations from corporations to political campaigns, and a way to channel the extracted wealth of citizens to advance those interests.  At least there is some perverse logic to that.

It will not lose money. It can use the influence of the government to prevent it from losing money. Private sector insurers would not have this influence.
That people think this is a good thing is also astounding..
How far we have fallen.
How would this not be a good thing? The government protecting the american economy from foreign governments can only be a good thing unless you wish to see the economy fail/decline
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 20, 2014, 03:00:43 PM
#68
Quote from: zorke on September 19, 2014, 10:15:54 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 18, 2014, 01:51:13 AM
Quote from: zorke on September 18, 2014, 12:01:14 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 17, 2014, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: itsAj on September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
The ex-im bank is in no way required for political action regarding this concern.
If the ex-im bank is going to take a loss because a country is cancelling orders from US companies in mass, then the US government would likely contact the country via diplomatic channels to try to get these order cancellations to stop.
I'm baffled as to why you think the government needs the ex-im bank for an excuse to do this.
If this is the reason we need it, it is the flimsiest justification for it yet. 
Creating a intermediary bureaucracy so that it can lose money in order to give a reason for foreign policy action?

Even the more obvious justification is better, as a means to extract donations from corporations to political campaigns, and a way to channel the extracted wealth of citizens to advance those interests.  At least there is some perverse logic to that.

It will not lose money. It can use the influence of the government to prevent it from losing money. Private sector insurers would not have this influence.
That people think this is a good thing is also astounding..
How far we have fallen.
zorke
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 19, 2014, 10:15:54 PM
#67
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 18, 2014, 01:51:13 AM
Quote from: zorke on September 18, 2014, 12:01:14 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 17, 2014, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: itsAj on September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
The ex-im bank is in no way required for political action regarding this concern.
If the ex-im bank is going to take a loss because a country is cancelling orders from US companies in mass, then the US government would likely contact the country via diplomatic channels to try to get these order cancellations to stop.
I'm baffled as to why you think the government needs the ex-im bank for an excuse to do this.
If this is the reason we need it, it is the flimsiest justification for it yet. 
Creating a intermediary bureaucracy so that it can lose money in order to give a reason for foreign policy action?

Even the more obvious justification is better, as a means to extract donations from corporations to political campaigns, and a way to channel the extracted wealth of citizens to advance those interests.  At least there is some perverse logic to that.

It will not lose money. It can use the influence of the government to prevent it from losing money. Private sector insurers would not have this influence.
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 18, 2014, 01:51:13 AM
#66
Quote from: zorke on September 18, 2014, 12:01:14 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 17, 2014, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: itsAj on September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
The ex-im bank is in no way required for political action regarding this concern.
If the ex-im bank is going to take a loss because a country is cancelling orders from US companies in mass, then the US government would likely contact the country via diplomatic channels to try to get these order cancellations to stop.
I'm baffled as to why you think the government needs the ex-im bank for an excuse to do this.
If this is the reason we need it, it is the flimsiest justification for it yet. 
Creating a intermediary bureaucracy so that it can lose money in order to give a reason for foreign policy action?

Even the more obvious justification is better, as a means to extract donations from corporations to political campaigns, and a way to channel the extracted wealth of citizens to advance those interests.  At least there is some perverse logic to that.
zorke
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 18, 2014, 12:01:14 AM
#65
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 17, 2014, 01:02:52 AM
Quote from: itsAj on September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
The ex-im bank is in no way required for political action regarding this concern.
If the ex-im bank is going to take a loss because a country is cancelling orders from US companies in mass, then the US government would likely contact the country via diplomatic channels to try to get these order cancellations to stop.
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 17, 2014, 01:02:52 AM
#64
Quote from: itsAj on September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
The ex-im bank is in no way required for political action regarding this concern.
itsAj
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 16, 2014, 11:04:04 PM
#63
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 16, 2014, 08:33:12 AM
Quote from: itsAj on September 06, 2014, 11:44:02 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on August 26, 2014, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: itsAj on August 25, 2014, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on August 24, 2014, 11:01:09 PM
How is it preventing oversupply?  It is just a re-seller of that supply, if it consumes nothing productively, it is just an intermediary middleman centralizing foreign counterparty risk at the expense of the national treasury?  It merely adds waste to the economic system in which it operates.
The ex-im bank is able to release the supply at a slower pace then the original producer would be able to. The producer would have to pay it's employers and it's suppliers; if it's buyer is not able to pay then it would need to rush it's now unsold goods to the market in order for it to pay it's bills.
Then why (over)claim that it reduces supply when you clearly state it doesn't do anything more than put it on a shelf to rot and become obsolete, just like it would on the producer's shelf, and perhaps ultimately be sold?  This is not reducing supply, only productive use does that.  This is not a public good, it is the opposite, a public taking.
It is a politically controlled market distortion at public expense for private benefit, subject to lobbyist influence and plain corruption.  Government ought not be in this business, it is wrong and a misuse of power.

I was in the "What is it?" / "I don't care" camp until all these ExIm apologists came along with these mealy-mouthed justifications.  The more they write, the more reprehensible it seems.  Should just stop and hope that folks don't see it for what it is.  The more you explain, the worse it appears.

Not much patience for all this lipstick on a pig.
You fail to recognize that the export-import bank takes a fee for every loan/order they guarantee payment for. They do not necessarily need to sell all of the goods they purchased because a foreign company defaulted on an order because of this. They are a way of spreading the risk of foreign companies' defaulting around the US economy.

This is not a function of good government.  Government interferes in what should be private business.  This should be done by private insurance and be competitive.  There is no state interest here other than the capitalization on political power.  Get elected, and then use the power of the state to enrich those who elected you.
It is simple corruption.  It should be private or ended, not government subsidized.

My argument is not that this should not be done.  Just that it should not be done by governments, especially not the US which ought be above such nonsense.  Its bad enough that the government thinks it is the insurance company for its citizens and banks and random companies that are too-big-too-fail, but throwing its weight into the international trade to pick favorites among the exporters is unnecessarily corrupt.
The reason the government is involved in the export-import bank is because other countries could economically attack the US if they were to engage in a trade war. If a country (say China) were to get it's companies to order a lot of American products with no intention of paying for them nor taking delivery of them then the US government can use it's political influence to get this to stop and reverse this policy of China (in this scenario). The private sector would not be able to exert this influence.
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 16, 2014, 08:33:12 AM
#62
Quote from: itsAj on September 06, 2014, 11:44:02 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on August 26, 2014, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: itsAj on August 25, 2014, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on August 24, 2014, 11:01:09 PM
How is it preventing oversupply?  It is just a re-seller of that supply, if it consumes nothing productively, it is just an intermediary middleman centralizing foreign counterparty risk at the expense of the national treasury?  It merely adds waste to the economic system in which it operates.
The ex-im bank is able to release the supply at a slower pace then the original producer would be able to. The producer would have to pay it's employers and it's suppliers; if it's buyer is not able to pay then it would need to rush it's now unsold goods to the market in order for it to pay it's bills.
Then why (over)claim that it reduces supply when you clearly state it doesn't do anything more than put it on a shelf to rot and become obsolete, just like it would on the producer's shelf, and perhaps ultimately be sold?  This is not reducing supply, only productive use does that.  This is not a public good, it is the opposite, a public taking.
It is a politically controlled market distortion at public expense for private benefit, subject to lobbyist influence and plain corruption.  Government ought not be in this business, it is wrong and a misuse of power.

I was in the "What is it?" / "I don't care" camp until all these ExIm apologists came along with these mealy-mouthed justifications.  The more they write, the more reprehensible it seems.  Should just stop and hope that folks don't see it for what it is.  The more you explain, the worse it appears.

Not much patience for all this lipstick on a pig.
You fail to recognize that the export-import bank takes a fee for every loan/order they guarantee payment for. They do not necessarily need to sell all of the goods they purchased because a foreign company defaulted on an order because of this. They are a way of spreading the risk of foreign companies' defaulting around the US economy.

This is not a function of good government.  Government interferes in what should be private business.  This should be done by private insurance and be competitive.  There is no state interest here other than the capitalization on political power.  Get elected, and then use the power of the state to enrich those who elected you.
It is simple corruption.  It should be private or ended, not government subsidized.

My argument is not that this should not be done.  Just that it should not be done by governments, especially not the US which ought be above such nonsense.  Its bad enough that the government thinks it is the insurance company for its citizens and banks and random companies that are too-big-too-fail, but throwing its weight into the international trade to pick favorites among the exporters is unnecessarily corrupt.
itsAj
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 06, 2014, 11:44:02 PM
#61
Quote from: NewLiberty on August 26, 2014, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: itsAj on August 25, 2014, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on August 24, 2014, 11:01:09 PM
How is it preventing oversupply?  It is just a re-seller of that supply, if it consumes nothing productively, it is just an intermediary middleman centralizing foreign counterparty risk at the expense of the national treasury?  It merely adds waste to the economic system in which it operates.
The ex-im bank is able to release the supply at a slower pace then the original producer would be able to. The producer would have to pay it's employers and it's suppliers; if it's buyer is not able to pay then it would need to rush it's now unsold goods to the market in order for it to pay it's bills.
Then why (over)claim that it reduces supply when you clearly state it doesn't do anything more than put it on a shelf to rot and become obsolete, just like it would on the producer's shelf, and perhaps ultimately be sold?  This is not reducing supply, only productive use does that.  This is not a public good, it is the opposite, a public taking.
It is a politically controlled market distortion at public expense for private benefit, subject to lobbyist influence and plain corruption.  Government ought not be in this business, it is wrong and a misuse of power.

I was in the "What is it?" / "I don't care" camp until all these ExIm apologists came along with these mealy-mouthed justifications.  The more they write, the more reprehensible it seems.  Should just stop and hope that folks don't see it for what it is.  The more you explain, the worse it appears.

Not much patience for all this lipstick on a pig.
You fail to recognize that the export-import bank takes a fee for every loan/order they guarantee payment for. They do not necessarily need to sell all of the goods they purchased because a foreign company defaulted on an order because of this. They are a way of spreading the risk of foreign companies' defaulting around the US economy.
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 06, 2014, 06:44:21 PM
#60
Governments are really bad at managing economies.
When politicians try to do business, business becomes politics.
Both become more corrupt in the process.  

The more "merits" are claimed for how good it is, the more obvious it seems that this is NOT something a government ought to be doing.
If government keeps propping up the too-big-to-fail, the moral hazards compound, the big get bigger, and when the too-big-to-fail do fail, they bring down government along with it.  If that is your goal, carry on.  Its not my bailiwick, just observing the obvious.  I'm perhaps too optimistic thinking that the USA can be saved from itself.
wasserman99
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 04, 2014, 06:24:44 PM
#59
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 04, 2014, 07:13:03 AM
Quote from: wasserman99 on September 04, 2014, 01:37:43 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 03, 2014, 11:33:43 AM
Quote from: wasserman99 on August 29, 2014, 01:33:30 PM
It regulates how quickly the oversupply comes into the market. The exim bank is able to wait longer to sell the supply of a good so they can price the good appropriately. If a company is forced to sell their product to meet cash/liquidity needs then they would sell their goods at an unwarranted discount.
This sounds like a job for a company, not for a government entity.
Let Overstock do it.  Or let them buy insurance.
If its not a viable business, then its not a viable business.  Let the people do something productive instead.
Taxes ought not be taken by force of law from the widows and orphans to pay for the subsidy of business decision failures by protectionistas.
The markets price goods appropriately, not a government.
The guarantees that the ex-im bank provides are not free, it essentially acts as insurance. Many of the goods that are sold and guaranteed by the ex-im bank are not things that can be sold on overstock, and when they can be sold the quantity is much larger then what overstock is built for. For example if a foreign airline were to order 10 boeing airplanes and then file bankruptcy then boeing would be out of the cost to build the airplane but would have little to no way of selling it. The market for airplanes is not such that an airplane can be easily sold quickly. 
Yes, Overstock customers are a different set of customer, but the point stands. 
Boeing has the same way of selling their extra airplane as anyone else does.  The ExIm is a crutch that enables bad business decision making and socializes risk while privatising profit.
I'm just not a fan of government insurance for a select few elite "too big too fail" constituencies.
It gives the moniker of "white collar welfare" that gets applied to aerospace and others too much credence.
If a customer were to approach boeing and order 10 airplanes, you think it would be a bad business decision to accept the order if the customer has bad credit? I would say it would be a bad decision to not accept the order.

Something else to keep in mind is the fact that the ex-im bank does not only protect against corporate defaults, they also protect against unexpected, new capital controls that foreign governments put on their economy. If the ex-im bank did not exist then Russia for example could wreck the US economy by having it's companies place large orders with US companies and then place capital controls making it impossible for the US companies to get paid.

One thing you should remember is the fact that every recession is always preceded by a glut in inventory and drop in demand.
NewLiberty
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1002
Gresham's Lawyer
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 04, 2014, 07:13:03 AM
#58
Quote from: wasserman99 on September 04, 2014, 01:37:43 AM
Quote from: NewLiberty on September 03, 2014, 11:33:43 AM
Quote from: wasserman99 on August 29, 2014, 01:33:30 PM
It regulates how quickly the oversupply comes into the market. The exim bank is able to wait longer to sell the supply of a good so they can price the good appropriately. If a company is forced to sell their product to meet cash/liquidity needs then they would sell their goods at an unwarranted discount.
This sounds like a job for a company, not for a government entity.
Let Overstock do it.  Or let them buy insurance.
If its not a viable business, then its not a viable business.  Let the people do something productive instead.
Taxes ought not be taken by force of law from the widows and orphans to pay for the subsidy of business decision failures by protectionistas.
The markets price goods appropriately, not a government.
The guarantees that the ex-im bank provides are not free, it essentially acts as insurance. Many of the goods that are sold and guaranteed by the ex-im bank are not things that can be sold on overstock, and when they can be sold the quantity is much larger then what overstock is built for. For example if a foreign airline were to order 10 boeing airplanes and then file bankruptcy then boeing would be out of the cost to build the airplane but would have little to no way of selling it. The market for airplanes is not such that an airplane can be easily sold quickly. 
Yes, Overstock customers are a different set of customer, but the point stands. 
Boeing has the same way of selling their extra airplane as anyone else does.  The ExIm is a crutch that enables bad business decision making and socializes risk while privatising profit.
I'm just not a fan of government insurance for a select few elite "too big too fail" constituencies.
It gives the moniker of "white collar welfare" that gets applied to aerospace and others too much credence.
yoni
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 04, 2014, 02:04:58 AM
#57
Quote from: NewLiberty on August 26, 2014, 01:11:47 PM
Quote from: itsAj on August 25, 2014, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: NewLiberty on August 24, 2014, 11:01:09 PM
How is it preventing oversupply?  It is just a re-seller of that supply, if it consumes nothing productively, it is just an intermediary middleman centralizing foreign counterparty risk at the expense of the national treasury?  It merely adds waste to the economic system in which it operates.
The ex-im bank is able to release the supply at a slower pace then the original producer would be able to. The producer would have to pay it's employers and it's suppliers; if it's buyer is not able to pay then it would need to rush it's now unsold goods to the market in order for it to pay it's bills.
Then why (over)claim that it reduces supply when you clearly state it doesn't do anything more than put it on a shelf to rot and become obsolete, just like it would on the producer's shelf, and perhaps ultimately be sold?  This is not reducing supply, only productive use does that.  This is not a public good, it is the opposite, a public taking.
It is a politically controlled market distortion at public expense for private benefit, subject to lobbyist influence and plain corruption.  Government ought not be in this business, it is wrong and a misuse of power.

I was in the "What is it?" / "I don't care" camp until all these ExIm apologists came along with these mealy-mouthed justifications.  The more they write, the more reprehensible it seems.  Should just stop and hope that folks don't see it for what it is.  The more you explain, the worse it appears.

Not much patience for all this lipstick on a pig.

may reduce the supply is not an easy thing. purchase supplies do not use intermediaries, should be directly with the manufacturer or businessman.
yoni
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
Re: The Export-Import Bank
September 04, 2014, 01:52:44 AM
#56
Quote from: zolace on July 23, 2014, 12:36:25 PM
Which a number of our businesses depend on to compete overseas with foreign companies that have state backing like Chinese businesses. Take what little we actually help them out on away and they can't compete.

i think to have a support backing to companies of Chinese Businesses, can help market a product that will be offered.
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