The fatal error of Stalin, which saved the world

Alik Bahshi

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Quote from: maxindex on July 02, 2017, 03:53:07 AM

Quote from: rijktyum on July 02, 2017, 03:52:12 AM

Well, for example, about the alleged equal responsibility of the USSR and Hitler's Germany for the outbreak of World War II. They say that our country does not conclude a nonaggression pact with the Third Reich, the Fascists would not be attacked by Poland. But this was categorically disagreed with the OKW officer (the High Command of the Hitlerites) Helmut Greiner. In his book "Military Campaigns of the Wehrmacht" published by Tsentrpoligraf in 2011 on page 26, the refutation of these insinuations is actually given: "In late March, Colonel-General Keitel, chief of the OKW, notified the chief of the Warlimont defense department that the Führer ordered the commander-in-chief Wehrmacht armed forces before the end of August prepare for military clashes with Poland, which seemed inevitable. "

At the end of March (referring to 1939), that is, six months before the conclusion of the treaty signed by Molotov and Ribbentrop, the fascists began to prepare for an invasion of Poland. There was no hint yet that Moscow might be disappointed in sabotaging the UK and France with an agreement on joint actions in the event of Hitler's aggression and would decide to conclude a pact with Nazi Germany.

Dude, this is not the fault of Stalin
It's not his fault

There are facts: Stalin concluded an agreement with Germany on friendship and mutual assistance. In 1939, the Red Army followed the German army into Poland. The victory over Poland was celebrated with a joint parade of the German Army and the Red Army. 24,000 Polish prisoners of war were secretly shot by the Russians in 1940.

Alik Bahshi

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Quote from: Sithara007 on July 04, 2017, 08:50:56 PM

Quote from: rijktyum on July 02, 2017, 03:52:12 AM

At the end of March (referring to 1939), that is, six months before the conclusion of the treaty signed by Molotov and Ribbentrop, the fascists began to prepare for an invasion of Poland. There was no hint yet that Moscow might be disappointed in sabotaging the UK and France with an agreement on joint actions in the event of Hitler's aggression and would decide to conclude a pact with Nazi Germany.

Was it the sole responsibility of the USSR to prevent the Nazi invasion of Poland? What was Great Britain doing at that time? What was France doing? And most importantly, where was the United States?

My suspicions were justified. History still need to know, so as not to ask such questions. Dear Madam, when Russia and Germany were fraternizing and conducting joint military military parades in Brest, Britain and France were at war with Germany. As a result of a joint attack by Germany and the USSR on Poland, the state of Poland ceased to exist. September 17, 1939 after the Soviet attack on Poland, the Polish government was forced to leave the country to continue the struggle in exile. While in Moscow admired friendship with Hitler in the Atlantic was a war. From September to December 1939, Britain as a result of the action of German submarines and battleships lost more than 100 merchant ships, which significantly undermined its economy. The Soviet Union during this time attacked Finland, for which he was expelled from the League of Nations. In short, better read historical sources.

Sithara007

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Quote from: rijktyum on July 02, 2017, 03:52:12 AM

At the end of March (referring to 1939), that is, six months before the conclusion of the treaty signed by Molotov and Ribbentrop, the fascists began to prepare for an invasion of Poland. There was no hint yet that Moscow might be disappointed in sabotaging the UK and France with an agreement on joint actions in the event of Hitler's aggression and would decide to conclude a pact with Nazi Germany.

Was it the sole responsibility of the USSR to prevent the Nazi invasion of Poland? What was Great Britain doing at that time? What was France doing? And most importantly, where was the United States?

myparentsdisownedme

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Holy moly, thanks for typing this all out? What'd you go to school for?

maxindex

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Quote from: rijktyum on July 02, 2017, 03:52:12 AM

Well, for example, about the alleged equal responsibility of the USSR and Hitler's Germany for the outbreak of World War II. They say that our country does not conclude a nonaggression pact with the Third Reich, the Fascists would not be attacked by Poland. But this was categorically disagreed with the OKW officer (the High Command of the Hitlerites) Helmut Greiner. In his book "Military Campaigns of the Wehrmacht" published by Tsentrpoligraf in 2011 on page 26, the refutation of these insinuations is actually given: "In late March, Colonel-General Keitel, chief of the OKW, notified the chief of the Warlimont defense department that the Führer ordered the commander-in-chief Wehrmacht armed forces before the end of August prepare for military clashes with Poland, which seemed inevitable. "

At the end of March (referring to 1939), that is, six months before the conclusion of the treaty signed by Molotov and Ribbentrop, the fascists began to prepare for an invasion of Poland. There was no hint yet that Moscow might be disappointed in sabotaging the UK and France with an agreement on joint actions in the event of Hitler's aggression and would decide to conclude a pact with Nazi Germany.

Dude, this is not the fault of Stalin
It's not his fault

rijktyum

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Well, for example, about the alleged equal responsibility of the USSR and Hitler's Germany for the outbreak of World War II. They say that our country does not conclude a nonaggression pact with the Third Reich, the Fascists would not be attacked by Poland. But this was categorically disagreed with the OKW officer (the High Command of the Hitlerites) Helmut Greiner. In his book "Military Campaigns of the Wehrmacht" published by Tsentrpoligraf in 2011 on page 26, the refutation of these insinuations is actually given: "In late March, Colonel-General Keitel, chief of the OKW, notified the chief of the Warlimont defense department that the Führer ordered the commander-in-chief Wehrmacht armed forces before the end of August prepare for military clashes with Poland, which seemed inevitable. "

At the end of March (referring to 1939), that is, six months before the conclusion of the treaty signed by Molotov and Ribbentrop, the fascists began to prepare for an invasion of Poland. There was no hint yet that Moscow might be disappointed in sabotaging the UK and France with an agreement on joint actions in the event of Hitler's aggression and would decide to conclude a pact with Nazi Germany.

petreajs

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The first mistake was the deportation of Lev Trotsky abroad.
The second mistake - after suppressing the attempt of a very probable military coup, Stalin allowed the head of the NKVD Nikolai Yezhov to untwist the flywheel of repression.
Error three - Stalin did not believe in the possibility of an attack by the Nazis on the USSR in 1941.
The fourth mistake is that Stalin did not remove Khrushchev, who hates him, from public affairs.

Sithara007

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Quote from: Alik Bahshi on July 01, 2017, 12:38:22 AM

Quote from: Sithara007 on June 30, 2017, 11:39:38 PM

Quote from: iluvpie60 on June 30, 2017, 11:32:09 PM

He also hated Russians with a passion and wanted to wipe them out. Creating an alliance with them was basically only to keep them from coming into the war. He eventually wanted to take over everything(even any allies).

He hated the ethnic Slavs, perhaps even more fiercely than the Jews/Roma. It is evident from the fact that Hitler killed more than 30 million Slavs (Soviets, Poles, Serbs.etc) during the WW2 when compared to the deaths of 6 million Jews during the holocaust. The real genocide during the WW2 was carried out against the Slavs, and not against the Jews.

The facts speak to the contrary. On the side of Germany was fought by the Russian army of General Vlasov, so your statement is absurd. Hitler wanted to persuade the Russians to take his side against the Bolsheviks of the Communists, whom he considered Jews. I do not know the fact that on the side of Germany, the Jews fought. Another fact in support of the fact that Hitler wanted to persuade the Russians to his side is that when the Germans came to the Caucasus he forbade the mountaineers who hated Russians to kill them. It seems to me, based on previous posts, you either do not know the story or deliberately mislead. Hitler made a genocide against Jews and Gypsies.

Seems like you are interested in re-writing the history. If you have ever read Mein Kampf, then you will realize how much Hitler hated the Slavs. He hated them more than any other ethnic group. He tried to exterminate the Polish race when he invaded Poland. His idea was to repopulate Poland with Saxons. Tried the same in Belarus, Ukraine and Western Russia, but there were not enough Germans to repopulate these regions.

Alik Bahshi

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Quote from: benedictonathan on July 01, 2017, 03:05:15 PM

Interesting article you have, admired the way you have told such an interesting yet horrific era not too long ago. If Stalin placed his bet on the Axis, then possibly much of Asia would be communist.

Thank you for the evaluation of the article. Yes, if Stalin and Hitler had continued cooperation, the scientific and technical potential of Germany and the unlimited resources of Russia made the Germany-Russia-Japan axis superior to the British Commonwealth.

dobrujk

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No matter how it was, one can say with certainty that if it were not for Stalin's fatal error, the political map of the World was different today.

bombard1

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Stalin, as a politician, made no mistake, except for the one that caused Germany's attack on the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941 and the violation of the strategic non-aggression pact important for both countries, with a secret part that provides for the redrawing of borders in Eastern Europe.

benedictonathan

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Interesting article you have, admired the way you have told such an interesting yet horrific era not too long ago. If Stalin placed his bet on the Axis, then possibly much of Asia would be communist.

xskl0

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Germany stop the Soviet Union to invade Europe. USRR was planing to destroy the identity of nations to make an United states of Europe (search this concept on Wikipedia) To avoid a war in to fronts Rudolf Hess jumped with a parachute to the UK to negotiate peace. Churchill made an ultimatum to sign peace ( change work standard for gold stabdard again and allow masonic societies). That Stalin didn't took any wrong decition is very questionable.

CoinCube

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We are very lucky WWII ended the way it did. The outcome as horrific as it was could have been so much worse.

In October of 1941 Germany was advancing on Moscow with around 2 million men with essentially only hastily thrown together units and draftees between them and the capital.

Had the Germans taken Moscow the Russian rail network would have been cut and there is a good chance Japan would have seized the opportunity to strike in the east. Under those conditions it is questionable whether Russia could
have offered much in the way of effective resistance.

Instead bizarre and wildly atypical weather stalled and significantly damaged the German war machine, and very unusual circumstances dramatically shifted the political landscape in Japan leading them to foolishly attack the USA.

For some interesting speculation on this topic and an overview of some history see:
Intervention Theory: Did a Higher Powere Defeat the Nazis

Alik Bahshi

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Quote from: Sithara007 on June 30, 2017, 11:39:38 PM

Quote from: iluvpie60 on June 30, 2017, 11:32:09 PM

He also hated Russians with a passion and wanted to wipe them out. Creating an alliance with them was basically only to keep them from coming into the war. He eventually wanted to take over everything(even any allies).

He hated the ethnic Slavs, perhaps even more fiercely than the Jews/Roma. It is evident from the fact that Hitler killed more than 30 million Slavs (Soviets, Poles, Serbs.etc) during the WW2 when compared to the deaths of 6 million Jews during the holocaust. The real genocide during the WW2 was carried out against the Slavs, and not against the Jews.

The facts speak to the contrary. On the side of Germany was fought by the Russian army of General Vlasov, so your statement is absurd. Hitler wanted to persuade the Russians to take his side against the Bolsheviks of the Communists, whom he considered Jews. I do not know the fact that on the side of Germany, the Jews fought. Another fact in support of the fact that Hitler wanted to persuade the Russians to his side is that when the Germans came to the Caucasus he forbade the mountaineers who hated Russians to kill them.
It seems to me, based on previous posts, you either do not know the story or deliberately mislead. Hitler made a genocide against Jews and Gypsies.

Sithara007

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Quote from: iluvpie60 on June 30, 2017, 11:32:09 PM

He also hated Russians with a passion and wanted to wipe them out. Creating an alliance with them was basically only to keep them from coming into the war. He eventually wanted to take over everything(even any allies).

He hated the ethnic Slavs, perhaps even more fiercely than the Jews/Roma. It is evident from the fact that Hitler killed more than 30 million Slavs (Soviets, Poles, Serbs.etc) during the WW2 when compared to the deaths of 6 million Jews during the holocaust. The real genocide during the WW2 was carried out against the Slavs, and not against the Jews.

iluvpie60

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I don't see what the fatal error of Stalin would have been for this.

You would need to read more about how crazy Hitler was, his vision was to take over the entire world slowly.

He also hated Russians with a passion and wanted to wipe them out. Creating an alliance with them was basically only to keep them from coming into the war. He eventually wanted to take over everything(even any allies).

Sithara007

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Quote from: Lancusters on June 30, 2017, 06:33:12 AM

The main in this article at the end. Hitler could not defeat the Soviet Union only because it was not beneficial to Americans and the British. Russian arrogate to themselves the main credit for the victory over Hitler, but it's not. Without the help of allies of the USSR would have lost the confrontation. But the Russians never know how to draw conclusions from their mistakes.

What sort of BS? The allies were getting their asses kicked big-time, before Hitler made the mistake of attacking the USSR. Had Hitler delayed his Soviet invasion by a few more years, then the entire Western Europe would have come under Nazi rule.

Daniel91

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Quote from: BitcoinSupremo on June 30, 2017, 08:22:14 AM

Stalin didn't made any error, the error was from the German side. After having conquer most of Europe in the second World War they thought they could conquer Russia. The problem was that Germans could not deal with the rough winter, very common in Russia for the Russian army and very uncommon for the Germans. That was the key that decided that Russia won the world war 2 and they every year make a parade in Moscow to celebrate that.

I agree with you.
Because of the same reason Napoleon also lost war in Russia.
Hitler attacked USSR to late, on the end of June, because of war in Yugoslavia before.
If he did it before, let's say in April, outcome could be different.
His big mistake also was announcement of war to America.
If Hitler waited just a year or two with announcement of war to America, and with an attack on USSR, and concentrated to first conquer Britain, the outcome of the war could be different.
We will never know.

BitcoinSupremo

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Stalin didn't made any error, the error was from the German side. After having conquer most of Europe in the second World War they thought they could conquer Russia. The problem was that Germans could not deal with the rough winter, very common in Russia for the Russian army and very uncommon for the Germans. That was the key that decided that Russia won the world war 2 and they every year make a parade in Moscow to celebrate that.

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