Pages:
Author

Topic: The hoarding problem - page 2. (Read 3700 times)

sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
January 19, 2013, 10:06:51 PM
#63
I don't want to get into an argument over semantics or whether or not "hoarding" has negative connotations, but let me just say that when you ask anyone what they do with the money they "save", they will say they invest it or put it in bank account (also "investing"), and they won't say they store it in a safe ("hoarding"). Thus in practical terms, "saving" is more "investing" than "hoarding".

I suppose you could use the word saveing for both stuffing money in the mattress and investing.

With saving I mean hoarding, ok.
When you put money in a bank account, you are really lending via a corporation of other lenders (the bank) to others, who might invest them. People think of it as saving (hoarding) because the money is readily available and guaranteed by the state.


My main point is that the hoarding problem (if it is even a problem) is due to the lack of investment opportunities. On the other hand, Bitcoin will eventually experience FRB and then there could be an inflation problem! People that predict absurd values for BTC often overlook this eventuality.

Yes, with fractional reserve banking, the bitcoin wider money supply would increase. But not like now, because there would be no one to bail out the bank, and people would be suspicious to the fact that more money is lent than deposited, and a run on the bank would be more likely.
Also, I think it is interesting to note that you can't hoard bitcoins forever (unless they are lost). Eventually, they will be spent or transferred to someone else. So, even hoarded bitcoins are part of the money supply in the long run.
I agree, there isn't really a difference between hoarding and spending when you look at the total. The coins will always be in someones wallet.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
January 19, 2013, 09:49:26 PM
#62
It may become noticable if there is a major shift in the habit of savings, for example if people around the world at the same time believe that something bad is going to happen.

This illustrates the fact that saved/hoarded money produces security, an economic good.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
January 19, 2013, 09:45:20 PM
#61
I don't want to get into an argument over semantics or whether or not "hoarding" has negative connotations, but let me just say that when you ask anyone what they do with the money they "save", they will say they invest it or put it in bank account (also "investing"), and they won't say they store it in a safe ("hoarding").

Actually, no, sometimes I've saved for a purchase by taking a little cash out of the bank each week and putting it somewhere until I had enough for the purchase.  Once I even kept it under my mattress.  Not all saving is investing, and not all saving occurs in a bank.  This kind of saving still represents deferred consumption, and is still beneficial.
legendary
Activity: 4466
Merit: 3391
January 19, 2013, 09:29:59 PM
#60
Wrong, hoading is just a negative word for saving.
Putting the money in a bank is investing, at least in the current type of banks who invest or lend to businesses or private.

Saving is not a problem. A saved sum of money is taken out of the effective money supply for a while, but as the money has no value except its moneyness, it does not harm the economy, it only increases the value of the remaining money. This is normally innoticable, as some save and some use their savings according to their life situation.

It may become noticable if there is a major shift in the habit of savings, for example if people around the world at the same time believe that something bad is going to happen.

When you earn some money, or are given some money, you can
1) save
2) lend the money to someone for the market-decided interest rate.
3) invest in something safe for a return close to the market-decided interest rate
4) engage in some entrepreneural business with the opportunity for extra gain or risk of loss.

Most people want some money ready for needs in the immediate future. If you have too much for your liking, you would lend or invest. If you have too little cash, you could reduce your investments.


I don't want to get into an argument over semantics or whether or not "hoarding" has negative connotations, but let me just say that when you ask anyone what they do with the money they "save", they will say they invest it or put it in bank account (also "investing"), and they won't say they store it in a safe ("hoarding"). Thus in practical terms, "saving" is more "investing" than "hoarding".

My main point is that the hoarding problem (if it is even a problem) is due to the lack of investment opportunities. On the other hand, Bitcoin will eventually experience FRB and then there could be an inflation problem! People that predict absurd values for BTC often overlook this eventuality.

Also, I think it is interesting to note that you can't hoard bitcoins forever (unless they are lost). Eventually, they will be spent or transferred to someone else. So, even hoarded bitcoins are part of the money supply in the long run.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
Annuit cœptis humanae libertas
January 19, 2013, 08:33:49 PM
#59
It is important to note that inflation = money supply X monitary flow. We have limited amounts of both so we have deflation. When there is increased economic activity in btc the value will go back down. This will be offset some by the increased user base, but with them comes more flow. So I see deflation as a temporary problem.

Because of the limited supply of BTC, it is extremely unlikely the BTC price versus fiat will decrease with an expanding bitcoin economy. In fact, common sense says the price per BTC must rise exponentially, unless there is a significant outflow back to fiat keeping the net demand (buys versus asks) for bitcoin low.
legendary
Activity: 3676
Merit: 1495
January 19, 2013, 08:29:14 PM
#58
The supply of Gold to all intents and purposes is limitless,

bit coins only have 21million.
21million what?
Look again at the wiki-quote about gold above, there's only 1 cube 20.7 m on a side of gold, a single one! Compared to that 21million sounds like A LOT.  Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
January 19, 2013, 08:21:32 PM
#57
That must be why gold has become valueless. People hoard it.
The supply of Gold to all intents and purposes is limitless, bit coins only have 21million.

 Huh
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
January 19, 2013, 08:14:53 PM
#56
That must be why gold has become valueless. People hoard it.

The supply of Gold to all intents and purposes is limitless, bit coins only have 21million.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
January 19, 2013, 08:08:24 PM
#55
Hoarding or not bitcoins also well know scheme know so either division or people might start new additional coin scheme Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
January 19, 2013, 03:58:58 PM
#54
Inflation has currently a dual meaning: Inflation of the money supply, or inflation of prices. Both are impossible to decide decisively, as money is more than the base money supply (dollar notes and coins). Inflation of prices is also difficult to measure, because you need to decide the prices of all goods and services, and find suitable weights for each. Since nature, technology and individuals' preferences continually change, a measure of inflation can only be approached. Generally, a money supply inflation will lead to price inflation after the dust settles.

Deflation is opposite, there can be deflation in the money supply and deflation in prices. In a discussion you should specify which.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
January 19, 2013, 03:44:25 PM
#53
"hoarding" is not the same as "saving". If you put money under your mattress, you are saving by hoarding. But if you deposit money in a savings account at a bank, you are saving, but you are not hoarding. This is a very important distinction. Hoarding removes the money from the economy, but investing does not.

Hoarding bitcoins is prevalent because there are very few ways to invest bitcoin savings. Investing bitcoins will be easy and common eventually and there will be no "hoarding problem".

Wrong, hoading is just a negative word for saving.
Putting the money in a bank is investing, at least in the current type of banks who invest or lend to businesses or private.

Saving is not a problem. A saved sum of money is taken out of the effective money supply for a while, but as the money has no value except its moneyness, it does not harm the economy, it only increases the value of the remaining money. This is normally innoticable, as some save and some use their savings according to their life situation.

It may become noticable if there is a major shift in the habit of savings, for example if people around the world at the same time believe that something bad is going to happen.

When you earn some money, or are given some money, you can
1) save
2) lend the money to someone for the market-decided interest rate.
3) invest in something safe for a return close to the market-decided interest rate
4) engage in some entrepreneural business with the opportunity for extra gain or risk of loss.

Most people want some money ready for needs in the immediate future. If you have too much for your liking, you would lend or invest. If you have too little cash, you could reduce your investments.



so when someone says hoarding is a type of behavior and deflation is the phenomenon, does this mean that if hoarding is a negative word for saving, it means "spending" then?

Sorry im totally new to this..

Hehe, no, hoarding is a word with negative connotation. It is the same as saving.

I forgot that increase in spending also is a choice if you come over some money. Reduction in spending is a choice if you feel you have to little money. So is increased working.
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
January 19, 2013, 03:34:51 PM
#52
"hoarding" is not the same as "saving". If you put money under your mattress, you are saving by hoarding. But if you deposit money in a savings account at a bank, you are saving, but you are not hoarding. This is a very important distinction. Hoarding removes the money from the economy, but investing does not.

Hoarding bitcoins is prevalent because there are very few ways to invest bitcoin savings. Investing bitcoins will be easy and common eventually and there will be no "hoarding problem".

Wrong, hoading is just a negative word for saving.
Putting the money in a bank is investing, at least in the current type of banks who invest or lend to businesses or private.

Saving is not a problem. A saved sum of money is taken out of the effective money supply for a while, but as the money has no value except its moneyness, it does not harm the economy, it only increases the value of the remaining money. This is normally innoticable, as some save and some use their savings according to their life situation.

It may become noticable if there is a major shift in the habit of savings, for example if people around the world at the same time believe that something bad is going to happen.

When you earn some money, or are given some money, you can
1) save
2) lend the money to someone for the market-decided interest rate.
3) invest in something safe for a return close to the market-decided interest rate
4) engage in some entrepreneural business with the opportunity for extra gain or risk of loss.

Most people want some money ready for needs in the immediate future. If you have too much for your liking, you would lend or invest. If you have too little cash, you could reduce your investments.



so when someone says hoarding is a type of behavior and deflation is the phenomenon, does this mean that if hoarding is a negative word for saving, it means "spending" then?

Sorry im totally new to this..
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
January 19, 2013, 03:25:32 PM
#51
"hoarding" is not the same as "saving". If you put money under your mattress, you are saving by hoarding. But if you deposit money in a savings account at a bank, you are saving, but you are not hoarding. This is a very important distinction. Hoarding removes the money from the economy, but investing does not.

Hoarding bitcoins is prevalent because there are very few ways to invest bitcoin savings. Investing bitcoins will be easy and common eventually and there will be no "hoarding problem".

Wrong, hoading is just a negative word for saving.
Putting the money in a bank is investing, at least in the current type of banks who invest or lend to businesses or private.

Saving is not a problem. A saved sum of money is taken out of the effective money supply for a while, but as the money has no value except its moneyness, it does not harm the economy, it only increases the value of the remaining money. This is normally innoticable, as some save and some use their savings according to their life situation.

It may become noticable if there is a major shift in the habit of savings, for example if people around the world at the same time believe that something bad is going to happen.

When you earn some money, or are given some money, you can
1) save
2) lend the money to someone for the market-decided interest rate.
3) invest in something safe for a return close to the market-decided interest rate
4) engage in some entrepreneural business with the opportunity for extra gain or risk of loss.

Most people want some money ready for needs in the immediate future. If you have too much for your liking, you would lend or invest. If you have too little cash, you could reduce your investments.
hero member
Activity: 533
Merit: 501
January 19, 2013, 02:09:45 PM
#50
Hording is quickly remidied when inflation hits.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
January 19, 2013, 01:49:37 PM
#49
is the term hoarding the same with deflation?
Hoarding is behavior, deflation is phenomenon
newbie
Activity: 49
Merit: 0
January 19, 2013, 01:45:26 PM
#48
is the term hoarding the same with deflation?
hero member
Activity: 533
Merit: 501
January 19, 2013, 12:58:52 PM
#47
It is important to note that inflation = money supply X monitary flow. We have limited amounts of both so we have deflation. When there is increased economic activity in btc the value will go back down. This will be offset some by the increased user base, but with them comes more flow. So I see deflation as a temporary problem.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
January 19, 2013, 12:45:00 PM
#46
Is it really that big of a problem?

Ultimately that depends your goal, as a asset for saving/speculation/secure transfer, all good, as a currency if that is the community goal, I would say it MAYBE, only history can tell.

We are in a great social experiment now, let history tell. I am supportive, though I have my own concerns, that is it. You are supportive, with full faith - no problem.
member
Activity: 110
Merit: 10
January 16, 2013, 06:42:41 PM
#45
So this thread is saying saving is a problem? and that saving is not called saving unless you give the money to someone else to look after it for you? What planet are you guys from? Last I checked savings accounts came from the idea that people needed a place to keep there "savings" safe from theft. You paid the bank to keep your money safe later on the banks merged it all into one game. Just like over the last 20 years we have seen investment banks and regular banks become one in the same.
member
Activity: 119
Merit: 10
January 16, 2013, 04:23:33 PM
#44
Is it really that big of a problem?
Pages:
Jump to: