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Topic: The international economy is about to crash. Bitcoin WILL explode upwards. (Read 8327 times)

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
Another great business idea it to start an insurance pool to insure btc transactions, I would like to see the indvidual sellers contribute to the fund and then create a claims process. I have no idea how to make that run in a decentralized way, but in my view if the problem with individuals selling to one another is the problem then the way to fix it is to insure the transactions.

why don't you set up a competitor to localbitcoins?  i don't know anything about them but they seem to be one of a kind.  i would think there'd be room in the market.


Yeah, similar network idea, but via PayPal, not cash... As a web-developer and entrepreneur, that's something I could be interested in being involved with. Fully vet the individual exchangers, and maybe set up an insurance system whereby they pay you a small fee in exchange for insurance as well as the exposure through your network. No idea how to price that; would obviously require an understanding of fraud rates and so forth to price properly...

But I really like the idea of a network of *verified* exchangers using PayPal. As noted, they'd need to be vetted *well*, and would have to agree to the business model you set forth (which minimizes fraud-risk via various checks, etc). If it can be structured in such that they get some insurance out of it, and you get the stability of premiums (and can use the float to offset some currency risk), it could be pretty nice.

What about skipping Paypal and just using a credit card processor?


Cant skip paypal I sell btc on ebay for pp. I dont want to stop because I get good margins although much higher risk to sell though ebay, I do also take a debit and credit through google checkout for my verified customers. They have to upload a copy of their drivers licence and fill out a form saying they wont charge back and then sign it with docusign. It is a little more work for me to take debit card. I also heard they where going to start charging higher prices for cc fees.

It would be nice if somebody could create an exchange where people can get money in through a credit card processor, using models similar to those discussed here to minimize the risk of chargeback.  Somebody was floating the idea of doing this with paypal, but I think the idea is even better if paypal can be skipped altogether.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
I know you aren't Murry rothbard? reincarnated?

Lol, I wish.  No relation.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Another great business idea it to start an insurance pool to insure btc transactions, I would like to see the indvidual sellers contribute to the fund and then create a claims process. I have no idea how to make that run in a decentralized way, but in my view if the problem with individuals selling to one another is the problem then the way to fix it is to insure the transactions.

why don't you set up a competitor to localbitcoins?  i don't know anything about them but they seem to be one of a kind.  i would think there'd be room in the market.


Yeah, similar network idea, but via PayPal, not cash... As a web-developer and entrepreneur, that's something I could be interested in being involved with. Fully vet the individual exchangers, and maybe set up an insurance system whereby they pay you a small fee in exchange for insurance as well as the exposure through your network. No idea how to price that; would obviously require an understanding of fraud rates and so forth to price properly...

But I really like the idea of a network of *verified* exchangers using PayPal. As noted, they'd need to be vetted *well*, and would have to agree to the business model you set forth (which minimizes fraud-risk via various checks, etc). If it can be structured in such that they get some insurance out of it, and you get the stability of premiums (and can use the float to offset some currency risk), it could be pretty nice.

What about skipping Paypal and just using a credit card processor?


Cant skip paypal I sell btc on ebay for pp. I dont want to stop because I get good margins although much higher risk to sell though ebay, I do also take a debit and credit through google checkout for my verified customers. They have to upload a copy of their drivers licence and fill out a form saying they wont charge back and then sign it with docusign. It is a little more work for me to take debit card. I also heard they where going to start charging higher prices for cc fees.

I know you aren't Murry rothbard? reincarnated?
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
As far as the previous comment by walter block

While I am proud to be mistaken for Walter Block, I am not he. Wink
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
Another great business idea it to start an insurance pool to insure btc transactions, I would like to see the indvidual sellers contribute to the fund and then create a claims process. I have no idea how to make that run in a decentralized way, but in my view if the problem with individuals selling to one another is the problem then the way to fix it is to insure the transactions.

why don't you set up a competitor to localbitcoins?  i don't know anything about them but they seem to be one of a kind.  i would think there'd be room in the market.


Yeah, similar network idea, but via PayPal, not cash... As a web-developer and entrepreneur, that's something I could be interested in being involved with. Fully vet the individual exchangers, and maybe set up an insurance system whereby they pay you a small fee in exchange for insurance as well as the exposure through your network. No idea how to price that; would obviously require an understanding of fraud rates and so forth to price properly...

But I really like the idea of a network of *verified* exchangers using PayPal. As noted, they'd need to be vetted *well*, and would have to agree to the business model you set forth (which minimizes fraud-risk via various checks, etc). If it can be structured in such that they get some insurance out of it, and you get the stability of premiums (and can use the float to offset some currency risk), it could be pretty nice.

What about skipping Paypal and just using a credit card processor?
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Another great business idea it to start an insurance pool to insure btc transactions, I would like to see the indvidual sellers contribute to the fund and then create a claims process. I have no idea how to make that run in a decentralized way, but in my view if the problem with individuals selling to one another is the problem then the way to fix it is to insure the transactions.

why don't you set up a competitor to localbitcoins?  i don't know anything about them but they seem to be one of a kind.  i would think there'd be room in the market.


Yeah, similar network idea, but via PayPal, not cash... As a web-developer and entrepreneur, that's something I could be interested in being involved with. Fully vet the individual exchangers, and maybe set up an insurance system whereby they pay you a small fee in exchange for insurance as well as the exposure through your network. No idea how to price that; would obviously require an understanding of fraud rates and so forth to price properly...

But I really like the idea of a network of *verified* exchangers using PayPal. As noted, they'd need to be vetted *well*, and would have to agree to the business model you set forth (which minimizes fraud-risk via various checks, etc). If it can be structured in such that they get some insurance out of it, and you get the stability of premiums (and can use the float to offset some currency risk), it could be pretty nice.

Thanks.
I would really just like to get paid for verifying and insuring transactions with in the network. Maybe a one time fee for verification and and a ongoing fee for insurance. All sellers in the network refer new potential customers to me for verification. They would pay a subscription fee up front, then a fee every time I verify a new customer then a monthly issuance fee. The way to set up sellers is regionally as we added new sellers it would get more and more decentralized. Maybe getting to the point that the sellers are selling in their own city. Of course they could sell to people they know with out the verification process, obviously we wouldnt insure those transactions (unless the want us to)   
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
Another great business idea it to start an insurance pool to insure btc transactions, I would like to see the indvidual sellers contribute to the fund and then create a claims process. I have no idea how to make that run in a decentralized way, but in my view if the problem with individuals selling to one another is the problem then the way to fix it is to insure the transactions.

why don't you set up a competitor to localbitcoins?  i don't know anything about them but they seem to be one of a kind.  i would think there'd be room in the market.


Yeah, similar network idea, but via PayPal, not cash... As a web-developer and entrepreneur, that's something I could be interested in being involved with. Fully vet the individual exchangers, and maybe set up an insurance system whereby they pay you a small fee in exchange for insurance as well as the exposure through your network. No idea how to price that; would obviously require an understanding of fraud rates and so forth to price properly...

But I really like the idea of a network of *verified* exchangers using PayPal. As noted, they'd need to be vetted *well*, and would have to agree to the business model you set forth (which minimizes fraud-risk via various checks, etc). If it can be structured in such that they get some insurance out of it, and you get the stability of premiums (and can use the float to offset some currency risk), it could be pretty nice.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
Another great business idea it to start an insurance pool to insure btc transactions, I would like to see the indvidual sellers contribute to the fund and then create a claims process. I have no idea how to make that run in a decentralized way, but in my view if the problem with individuals selling to one another is the problem then the way to fix it is to insure the transactions.

why don't you set up a competitor to localbitcoins?  i don't know anything about them but they seem to be one of a kind.  i would think there'd be room in the market.
sr. member
Activity: 254
Merit: 250
Digital money you say?
All of it is fascinating, we are living through an amazing time. 

I'm not sure I would describe the collapse of the world's financial markets in this manner.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Another great business idea it to start an insurance pool to insure btc transactions, I would like to see the indvidual sellers contribute to the fund and then create a claims process. I have no idea how to make that run in a decentralized way, but in my view if the problem with individuals selling to one another is the risk then the way to fix it is to insure the transactions.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
I do understand that. I am powerless to change anything, but ideas are more powerful than armies,governments and markets. Good ideas dont require force,people will adjust their behavior all on their own. The mindset of the market will change it will have to to survive. IMO. It will be interesting to watch. All of it is fascinating, we are living through an amazing time. 

i think what you really want, while not knowing it as a small individual exchanger, is for the Bitcoin market to find its fair value price as fast as possible.  once it achieves that, volatility will damp down markedly and your profit margins can be more assured and less risky.

you can't fault hoarders at this point in time b/c they are part of the market and what they are telling you is that we are not there yet.  and the even bigger problem for you and your business is that it could be years and at a much higher price point for that to happen.

what i would suggest is instead of trying to fight the market and its movements, try to understand Bitcoin a bit better.  i know i learn something everyday and i've been at this awhile.  once you get a better understanding of why the price keeps rising, you will be better equipped to structure your business around those principles.

I think we are in perfect agreement here.  Smiley. I would like to see a network of regionally distributed verified exchanges run by individuals. The exchanges are a weak spot for btc. If gox gets shut down btc goes back to 2 bucks maybe less. I want it decentralized as much as is possible. As far as the previous comment by walter block I would say that those services do little to increase mass adoption of BTC. I see them as financial institutions that weaken BTC. People simply are not going to go and WU,MG,MP,BT, funds in mass. To me all road to BTC mass adoption run through PP. I dont like it but that is the way I see it. People have to be able to get coins without leaving the house or paying a bunch of fees. It has to be easy. If we had a network of sellers then we could monitor fraud, sell for multiple payment methods (PP, cash in person,bank transfers, barter), increase customer reputation reports and seller reputation reports, and hedge against market moves. A great business would be a reputaion/verification service, that would verify your identity and that you are the account holder and a history of trades. That is what is so powerful about the way that I handle scammers. I only allow people to buy from me who have liked me on facebook. So I know that one of two things are true. Either your are the account holder or someone has hacked your whole life. My selling procedure goes as follows. You like our page, you send and email form the email address associated with the account, sometimes I check the phone too then I check everything, The name on the PP matches the Fb the email matches the PP the location matches the address the Ip matches the address or region the phone matches. So either someone has assess your email, FB, Phone,and PP or you are the account holder. The other thing that I do is start with 1 coin then after 24 hours you can buy up to 5 then after another 48 you can buy up to 10 the limit is set at ten till 90 days has past after that 20 then after another 90 days we can raise limits again. So if someone scams me i know who they are and where the live and their family members. I had one person scam me under that situation. He is user name bogbrush on otc. But I know that his real name is scott harding and that he lives in durham,durham in the UK he has been put on my scammer wall (my personal list of confirmed scammers).. BTW if you want to add confirmed scammers let me know. Would prefer if you knew FB page but will post email or IP address. They must be confirmed scammers 
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
I do understand that. I am powerless to change anything, but ideas are more powerful than armies,governments and markets. Good ideas dont require force,people will adjust their behavior all on their own. The mindset of the market will change it will have to to survive. IMO. It will be interesting to watch. All of it is fascinating, we are living through an amazing time. 

i think what you really want, while not knowing it as a small individual exchanger, is for the Bitcoin market to find its fair value price as fast as possible.  once it achieves that, volatility will damp down markedly and your profit margins can be more assured and less risky.

you can't fault hoarders at this point in time b/c they are part of the market and what they are telling you is that we are not there yet.  and the even bigger problem for you and your business is that it could be years and at a much higher price point for that to happen.

what i would suggest is instead of trying to fight the market and its movements, try to understand Bitcoin a bit better.  i know i learn something everyday and i've been at this awhile.  once you get a better understanding of why the price keeps rising, you will be better equipped to structure your business around those principles.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
The mindset of the market will change it will have to to survive. IMO.

You want the market to change to not want people to build up huge piles of capital?

Then we will never get the services that we need.

The huge piles of capital serve us.  Look at the successful bitcoin businesses.  They had to have big piles of capital.  As examples, check out Tangible Cryptography and bitinstant.  Nobody could do what they do without accumulating big reserves first.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
I do understand that. I am powerless to change anything, but ideas are more powerful than armies,governments and markets. Good ideas dont require force,people will adjust their behavior all on their own. The mindset of the market will change it will have to to survive. IMO. It will be interesting to watch. All of it is fascinating, we are living through an amazing time. 
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bytecoin: 8VofSsbQvTd8YwAcxiCcxrqZ9MnGPjaAQm
I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll

The market wants some people to build up substantial piles of capital.  That enables them to serve the rest of us.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
I dont care about getting the market moves (i know it can be a lot of money) I want to get paid for giving the people what they want. I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll you should get payed for sharing it to the world. I sell to people no one else would touch, new users, for PP. It is a lot of work to verify accounts and I still have charge back risk. I bought 6,600 in btc this year and have 0 coins right now I made about a 1000 selling the coins, not very good I know. In my other business I have 20,000 dollar months with 0 risk. I look at what I am doing as building a real market.

b/c you understand real economics well, you must see that what you're doing here is trying to impose your own value/moral set onto the Bitcoin market?  that does not work.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
Sublime,

Could your supply/price problem be solved by simply stocking up on coins at current prices and selling those in the following month? Woudn't it be easier on the books if the coins you're selling are from last month's purchase, and the coins you're buying are for next month's sales? You would be building a reserve in profit margins to protect against a price drop, allowing you to operate profitably on a long-term scale and not focus so much on the day to day aspect of it.

I realize it's still risky, but depending on your volume, I think it would be much harder to lose money this way over a significant time period unless bitcoin enters a very long downtrend.

As long as the price keeps going up. I sell to the public so I have a decent idea of the number of new users coming on board. Obviously I dont know all of the market forces at play (no one does) but IMO their is not the market demand to justify the price. I have only been involved with btc or 6 months. When I got in it was moving every evenly upward. Once the price spiked my sellers ran out or started to try and F!@# me on the price. under that scenario I bear all of the down side risk. So I told my number 1 seller "why so I need you?" If I can just deal with the exchange. I told him that I can play the same game. (i can buy large quantities on a dip), but that is not really what I am trying to build. I dont care about getting the market moves (i know it can be a lot of money) I want to get paid for giving the people what they want. I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll you should get payed for sharing it to the world. I sell to people no one else would touch, new users, for PP. It is a lot of work to verify accounts and I still have charge back risk. I bought 6,600 in btc this year and have 0 coins right now I made about a 1000 selling the coins, not very good I know. In my other business I have 20,000 dollar months with 0 risk. I look at what I am doing as building a real market.

Okay, I think I understand what you're trying to do now, and why buying and selling might not be an ideal business model for you. Reading your reply here though makes me think that you should be mining and selling though. You would be getting payed for doing good, something that you've made clear is important to you, and able to serve customers on your own terms, not dictated by what the market is doing.  Have you considered investing in high end mining equipment?
 

I have. My dad owns a software company that writes software to manage data centers and is partnered in another company DCN cables that makes custom length power strip whips with custom outlets and other data center hardware. So I have access to a mini data center that acts as their test bed, but it didnt look financially viable to mine btc when I looked into it. I just started looking into LTC which would be better for me because the data has lots of cpu's not a lot of gpu's. To be honest i consider that to all be tech guy nerd stuff. That is not my style is what i am trying to say, but i can get one of my dads's guys to start mining for me.   
legendary
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1006
48% of Americans believe another great depression is likely to happen in the next 12 months.
50% of Americans also believe that the sun revolves around the earth. your point?

Ignorance does not necessarily equal stupidity.

There was a time when that was the prevailing theory. Even in the scientific community.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
No the rising price is great for me on the way up I get the to get my tiddy"little" profit plus the market move, the problem is when the price moves become irrational. I bought close to 19 and then it corrected down to 17. I turn my coins over every 24-48 hours that math doesn't work out then when you factor in risk of a major correction I takes me out of it all together. I can park my money in to my business and get a 300-400 % return (over time) with zero risk. One of the main reasons that I am not selling coins right now is that I cant get them. Over the last 6 months I have gotten 3 sellers and one miner that sell to me for PP. Once the market exploded upwards, two sellers are out and one has tons of coins that he bought a .50 cents, but will not sell for a decent prices because he doesnt want to sell and miss the next move up. He quoted me at 26.68 when the spot was 24.9. I invest I do not gamble and right now I see a lot of gambling. I have a verified Mt gox and dwolla and a okpay but it takes forever to get them funded. I have to transfer from PP to bank to dwolla to mt.gox or PP to okpay to btc-e. Then I sell for PP and have to do it all over again. It is not possible for me to serve my customers without a steady supply or BTC for pp without holding onto large amount of coins, and I can take that kind of risk, right now.  

you can't fault Bitcoin for your woes.  you can blame speculators for causing volatility but that's just the market and that's not Bitcoin.  unfortunately, i don't think there are many markets you can be an exchanger in and not have this sort of risk.

Paypal has that kind of market with the dollar. I agree bitcoin is not the problem the problem is the market, but the market will change or die. LTC will help. I will be watching LTC to see how it behaves. Right now I am planning of dealing LTC and telling my customers to they can exchange for BTC, but i still have to wait for bank transfers. I really need PP sellers of LTC (which I am hoping will be easier to find) to keep me liquid and a constant supply of coins.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1001
Sublime,

Could your supply/price problem be solved by simply stocking up on coins at current prices and selling those in the following month? Woudn't it be easier on the books if the coins you're selling are from last month's purchase, and the coins you're buying are for next month's sales? You would be building a reserve in profit margins to protect against a price drop, allowing you to operate profitably on a long-term scale and not focus so much on the day to day aspect of it.

I realize it's still risky, but depending on your volume, I think it would be much harder to lose money this way over a significant time period unless bitcoin enters a very long downtrend.

As long as the price keeps going up. I sell to the public so I have a decent idea of the number of new users coming on board. Obviously I dont know all of the market forces at play (no one does) but IMO their is not the market demand to justify the price. I have only been involved with btc or 6 months. When I got in it was moving every evenly upward. Once the price spiked my sellers ran out or started to try and F!@# me on the price. under that scenario I bear all of the down side risk. So I told my number 1 seller "why so I need you?" If I can just deal with the exchange. I told him that I can play the same game. (i can buy large quantities on a dip), but that is not really what I am trying to build. I dont care about getting the market moves (i know it can be a lot of money) I want to get paid for giving the people what they want. I want to get payed for serving my customers. I believe that the market rewards the people that do the most good. You shouldn't get paid for for hoarding like a troll you should get payed for sharing it to the world. I sell to people no one else would touch, new users, for PP. It is a lot of work to verify accounts and I still have charge back risk. I bought 6,600 in btc this year and have 0 coins right now I made about a 1000 selling the coins, not very good I know. In my other business I have 20,000 dollar months with 0 risk. I look at what I am doing as building a real market.

Okay, I think I understand what you're trying to do now, and why buying and selling might not be an ideal business model for you. Reading your reply here though makes me think that you should be mining and selling though. You would be getting payed for doing good, something that you've made clear is important to you, and able to serve customers on your own terms, not dictated by what the market is doing.  Have you considered investing in high end mining equipment?
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