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Topic: The Legal Fiction Perpetuated by BitcoinTalk (Read 5252 times)

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 263
let's make a deal.
January 31, 2014, 07:38:46 PM
#53
but that doesn't change the legal reality of what can be legally considered "official" in da real world mon.

The point of my post was simply that the forum perpetuates a legal falsehood that there exists an official Bitcoin in the legal sense of the word and the MIT/X11 License was cited for that point.

"official" in da real world maybe not, but "official" in de facto sense, yes:  Bitcoin SHA-256 is de facto bitcoin.  

e.g. USA has no de jure 'officlal' language, but that doesn't mean you can ask for your 1040 tax form in Japanese.

vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
Please re-read my posts and stay on topic. Wink

It was unclear from OP just exactly what the topic was.  The legal stuff went way over my head, possibly because I'm not a lawyer, and possibly because OP contained a lot of terms like "logically impossible", "legal fiction", and "official", used in ways that depart drastically from the meanings for these that I'm accustomed to, and in ways that seem to bear no resemblance (that I recognize) to any of law that applies to me where I live (US).  Even though I'm not a lawyer, I'm a fan of understanding legal topics and feel I have a rudimentary grasp on basic legal reasoning, especially on topics that pertain to my work, such as intellectual property.

Where you live, this might make legal sense, but where I live, even as a non-lawyer I feel comfortable suggesting it does not.  The only sentiment I felt certain I understood clearly was the contempt displayed for the administrators and the way you purport them to (mis)manage the forums so... I hope that helps explain why I replied as I did.



rnp
member
Activity: 65
Merit: 10
Bullish on BitCoins
This thread is an entertaining read.

At one point I think I saw something about the idea that by limiting discussion of AltCoins, the board would be violating the license by not allowing the free  distribution (or something like that).

I also saw that since bitcoin forked post-satoshi, the current bitcoin is no more the original bitcoin than namecoin is (with the exception of having the same ports, etc. - Namecoin in sha256, right?)

I think I have those read correctly.

Here's my newbie 2¢...

- Wouldn't it be up to Satoshi to enforce the license for his work? Since he probably doesn't even exist, doesn't it make it an unenforceable license?
- On the bitcoin name, I definitely see your point. Of course it's like complaining about the flawed Monopoly trademark. Anyone could likely make a game and call it "Monopoly", and Hasbro would likely sue, and if you have enough $$ you'd actually likely win, as Hasbro has a demonstrably flawed trademark. As long as you create the elements of the game yourself, you couldn't really get hit under copyright either.
 However, Just like the Public-Domain based Make Your Own-OPOLY games, even though Monopoly-Hasbro isn't "really" THE official "Monopoly" game, it still is what people think of.

On the legal side, yes, you could call ALL crypto-currencies "Bitcoin", and technically be as correct as calling Coke, Pepsi and RC all "colas" (or in the south, all "Coke" for that matter). Bitcoin could be used as generically as crypto-currency.

So you could start referring to "Lite Bitcoin" and "Doge Bitcoin" but that doesn't mean everyone will.

As far as "Bitcoin (Scrypt)" vs "Bitcoin (SHA-256)", I do think it's weird, and even if the addresses are the same format (so you could technically use the same one for both wallets), but not illegal unless you try to sell one for the other's going rate without specifying which wallet (although if you sell SHA-256 for the Scrypt price, I don't think you'd get sued).

Any of this make sense?
full member
Activity: 129
Merit: 100
If you disagree that the forum operators are going against the spirit (if not the letter) of the MIT/X11 Open Source License, I look forward to your response.


Operating a discussion forum has nothing to do with subject matter such as software licensing.  The forum is not source code or intellectual property, and its administrators and moderators have the right to administer and moderate as they see fit.  It's also private property and its owners and management have the right to manage it or dispose of it as they see fit, and also have the right to define the mission and vision of the forums, to update these as needs and circumstances change, and to make administrative decisions consistent with them.  I am not certain why this is even a question.  The MIT/X11 Open Source License has about as much relevance here as the Book of Mormon.

+1. It is the right of a webmaster to censor content on his/her website as they see fit. This is one place where freedom of speech does not apply, and most people fail to understand that.


Please re-read my posts and stay on topic. Wink

Nobody ever claimed the forum wasn't permitted to censor its own content.   Indeed, respect of private property rights dictates that this forum can perpetuate whatever it wants, but that doesn't change the legal reality of what can be legally considered "official" in da real world mon.

The point of my post was simply that the forum perpetuates a legal falsehood that there exists an official Bitcoin in the legal sense of the word and the MIT/X11 License was cited for that point.

Again, I never claimed the forum was prohibited from managing the forums how they see fit (and, personally, I don't have a problem with setting the alts free by getting rid of the alt-coins section altogether).  

But, whether intentional or not, responses arguing against forum censorship, rather than addressing my actual points re what can legally be considered official outside of this forum, are straw-men arguments tearing down claims I never made.  

For example, compare the content of SaltySpoon's and theymos' responses in this thread to both of your responses to see what I mean.

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 504
always the student, never the master.
If you disagree that the forum operators are going against the spirit (if not the letter) of the MIT/X11 Open Source License, I look forward to your response.


Operating a discussion forum has nothing to do with subject matter such as software licensing.  The forum is not source code or intellectual property, and its administrators and moderators have the right to administer and moderate as they see fit.  It's also private property and its owners and management have the right to manage it or dispose of it as they see fit, and also have the right to define the mission and vision of the forums, to update these as needs and circumstances change, and to make administrative decisions consistent with them.  I am not certain why this is even a question.  The MIT/X11 Open Source License has about as much relevance here as the Book of Mormon.

+1. It is the right of a webmaster to censor content on his/her website as they see fit. This is one place where freedom of speech does not apply, and most people fail to understand that.
vip
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1140
The Casascius 1oz 10BTC Silver Round (w/ Gold B)
If you disagree that the forum operators are going against the spirit (if not the letter) of the MIT/X11 Open Source License, I look forward to your response.


Operating a discussion forum has nothing to do with subject matter such as software licensing.  The forum is not source code or intellectual property, and its administrators and moderators have the right to administer and moderate as they see fit.  It's also private property and its owners and management have the right to manage it or dispose of it as they see fit, and also have the right to define the mission and vision of the forums, to update these as needs and circumstances change, and to make administrative decisions consistent with them.  I am not certain why this is even a question.  The MIT/X11 Open Source License has about as much relevance here as the Book of Mormon.
legendary
Activity: 2548
Merit: 1054
CPU Web Mining 🕸️ on webmining.io
It's ok to be mad that Bitcoin is like the least profitable coin to mine, though. We don't mind. Go ahead and take your ball and go home, babies. Nobody cares
sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250
Hold up there legal eagle.  You wouldn't be misrepresenting the law just to win a silly online argument would you?

To make sure we are on the same page, are you arguing that because some courts have recognized Bitcoin but made no mention of other Bitcoins, that use of the name Bitcoin by anyone but the official Bitcoin is illegal and will lead to liability in court?  Keep in mind that fraudulently misrepresenting oneself to be "Bitcoin SHA256" is an entirely different matter than representing oneself to be "Bitcoin Prime" or "Bitcoin Scrypt" or "Bitcoin SHA512."  Are you claiming that the latter is illegal and would lead to liability in court because of the unnamed cases you allude to?

If so, it's obvious you do not fully appreciate the MIT/X11 license attached to the original Bitcoin so I have included it below (with emphasis added):
http://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

Quote
The MIT License (MIT)

Copyright (c)

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
in the Software without restriction
, including without limitation
the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
furnished to do so
, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN
THE SOFTWARE.

Thus, if another cryptocoin modifies the original Bitcoin source-code and represents itself as "Bitcoin Scrypt" or "Bitcoin Prime" or "Bitcoin SHA512" they have a legal license to do so, so long as the modified Bitcoin source-code includes this MIT/X11 notice and they do not restrict others from doing the same.   Do you disagree with this statement?

How about the converse?  Could it be argued that the current successors to Satoshi's original Bitcoin source-code do not own the source-code, but rather, have a license to use the source-code  so long as they allow others, "without restriction, including without limitation" to freely use, modify and distribute it?  The million dollar question then becomes:  Would the successors to the original Bitcoin lose their license to use the original Bitcoin source-code if they placed restrictions or limitations on anyone else's ability to freely use, modify or distribute a modified version of Satoshi's Bitcoin source-code, as per the MIT/X11 license?

Taking this to its logical extreme, because the original Bitcoin client is licensed under the MIT/X11 regime and is not purely public domain, I would argue that you, anti-scam, as a licensee of the original Bitcoin would lose said license to use the Bitcoin client by taking any actions intended to limit or restrict someone else's ability to freely use, modify or distribute a modified version of the Bitcoin source-code meeting the MIT/X11 notice requirements.  Wink



Finally, to prove me legally and factually incorrect, I challenge you to cite the cases for which you base your argument.  Otherwise, you are being dishonest and simply misrepresenting the law to win an online argument, truth-be-damned.  I've backed up everyone one of my assertions in this thread with independently verifiable facts and conceded where I was wrong.  

Are you honest enough to do the same?

For somebody who claims to be so well-versed in law, I don't think you understand that a software license is not the law. If I make a software license that entitles me to your first born child's kidney for use of the software then that would not be enforceable. Similarly a software license cannot permit its licensees to commit fraud. Bitcoin is not merely a piece of software, but a particular monetary asset. If you were to advertise anything using the common name of this particular monetary asset, claiming it to be this particular monetary asset or an equivalent of it, and then provide something that is not like it at all in that is not accepted as a valid substitute for the original thing, then that is fraud. "Bitcoin" scrypt would there not be legally recognized as Bitcoin in any court of law.

As for my source, have a look at the pirate case. No ideas about alternate Bitcoins have come up. If the legality of "Bitcoin SHA-256" is in question as the only Bitcoin implied when people say the word "Bitcoin" then why doesn't Mr. Shavers offer to pay his victims millions of "Bitcoin" scrypt and solve the whole issue? That's because they're not Bitcoin.

That's the point you seem to be missing. Intellectual property laws don't necessarily have to do with fraud. If I were selling horse meat as beef then I'd be investigated even though nobody can trademark the word beef. Saying that "Bitcoin" scrypt is Bitcoin is the same.

If you feel so confident in your claim then I assume that you should be more than ready to make tons of cash by offering "Bitcoin" for sale (with no need to specify the hashing algorithm, since the idea of there being only one Bitcoin is a legal fiction) for real dollars and giving people easily mined "Bitcoin" scrypt. If you refuse such an easy money-making opportunity then we can only conclude that you recognize its fraudulence and therefore the fraudulence of your claim.

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 251
COINECT
Hold up there legal eagle.  You wouldn't be misrepresenting the law just to win a silly online argument would you?

To make sure we are on the same page, are you arguing that because some courts have recognized Bitcoin but made no mention of other Bitcoins, that use of the name Bitcoin by anyone but the official Bitcoin is illegal and will lead to liability in court?  Keep in mind that fraudulently misrepresenting oneself to be "Bitcoin SHA256" is an entirely different matter than representing oneself to be "Bitcoin Prime" or "Bitcoin Scrypt" or "Bitcoin SHA512."  Are you claiming that the latter is illegal and would lead to liability in court because of the unnamed cases you allude to?

If so, it's obvious you do not fully appreciate the MIT/X11 license attached to the original Bitcoin so I have included it below (with emphasis added):
http://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

Quote
The MIT License (MIT)

Copyright (c)

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
in the Software without restriction
, including without limitation
the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
furnished to do so
, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN
THE SOFTWARE.

Thus, if another cryptocoin modifies the original Bitcoin source-code and represents itself as "Bitcoin Scrypt" or "Bitcoin Prime" or "Bitcoin SHA512" they have a legal license to do so, so long as the modified Bitcoin source-code includes this MIT/X11 notice and they do not restrict others from doing the same.   Do you disagree with this statement?

How about the converse?  Could it be argued that the current successors to Satoshi's original Bitcoin source-code do not own the source-code, but rather, have a license to use the source-code  so long as they allow others, "without restriction, including without limitation" to freely use, modify and distribute it?  The million dollar question then becomes:  Would the successors to the original Bitcoin lose their license to use the original Bitcoin source-code if they placed restrictions or limitations on anyone else's ability to freely use, modify or distribute a modified version of Satoshi's Bitcoin source-code, as per the MIT/X11 license?

Taking this to its logical extreme, because the original Bitcoin client is licensed under the MIT/X11 regime and is not purely public domain, I would argue that you, anti-scam, as a licensee of the original Bitcoin would lose said license to use the Bitcoin client by taking any actions intended to limit or restrict someone else's ability to freely use, modify or distribute a modified version of the Bitcoin source-code meeting the MIT/X11 notice requirements.  Wink



Finally, to prove me legally and factually incorrect, I challenge you to cite the cases for which you base your argument.  Otherwise, you are being dishonest and simply misrepresenting the law to win an online argument, truth-be-damned.  I've backed up everyone one of my assertions in this thread with independently verifiable facts and conceded where I was wrong.  

Are you honest enough to do the same?

For somebody who claims to be so well-versed in law, I don't think you understand that a software license is not the law. If I make a software license that entitles me to your first born child's kidney for use of the software then that would not be enforceable. Similarly a software license cannot permit its licensees to commit fraud. Bitcoin is not merely a piece of software, but a particular monetary asset. If you were to advertise anything using the common name of this particular monetary asset, claiming it to be this particular monetary asset or an equivalent of it, and then provide something that is not like it at all in that is not accepted as a valid substitute for the original thing, then that is fraud. "Bitcoin" scrypt would there not be legally recognized as Bitcoin in any court of law.

As for my source, have a look at the pirate case. No ideas about alternate Bitcoins have come up. If the legality of "Bitcoin SHA-256" is in question as the only Bitcoin implied when people say the word "Bitcoin" then why doesn't Mr. Shavers offer to pay his victims millions of "Bitcoin" scrypt and solve the whole issue? That's because they're not Bitcoin.

That's the point you seem to be missing. Intellectual property laws don't necessarily have to do with fraud. If I were selling horse meat as beef then I'd be investigated even though nobody can trademark the word beef. Saying that "Bitcoin" scrypt is Bitcoin is the same.

If you feel so confident in your claim then I assume that you should be more than ready to make tons of cash by offering "Bitcoin" for sale (with no need to specify the hashing algorithm, since the idea of there being only one Bitcoin is a legal fiction) for real dollars and giving people easily mined "Bitcoin" scrypt. If you refuse such an easy money-making opportunity then we can only conclude that you recognize its fraudulence and therefore the fraudulence of your claim.

anti-scam,

If you refuse to back up your bald-faced assertions with actual law or cases, then I refuse to acknowledge your posts. 

You haven't heard of the pirate case?
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
If removing giveaway threads from a specific subforum on a sole site is all it takes to significantly effect the value of an Alt Coin, my advice is not to invest in it.

Ouch! Now we can finally see real improvement in alt coins developments. I'm so glad the giveaway phase is finally over.  
full member
Activity: 129
Merit: 100
While I did acknowledge that there should be difference between trademark/copyright law and what would apply to Bitcoin, no I had not heard of that case as I am not a lawyer nor have I ever studied the law (other than to learn the lingo to win approval of a woman's father, but thats another story). But something does not sound right about your claim. If I was to change the Bitcoin code, and then redistribute it as allowed under an open source license, that would require essentially a 51% attack to successfully change the existing Bitcoin protocol. I don't see how there could be more than one official Bitcoin at any given time. If your fork was accepted and went through, that would then be Bitcoin and the old fork would not.

Maybe I'm not thinking of this the right way, but I cant put into logic how there could be two completely identical but seperate entities. If we define Bitcoin by its genesis block or blockchain surely there is no other way there could be another Bitcoin. If someone sues you for the theft of 10 Bitcoins, you couldn't make your own Bitcoin fork and send them your own 10 Bitcoins, as the network wouldn't accept it and your legal obligation wouldn't be fulfilled.

At this point, this more appropriate belongs in Bitcoin Discussion, however I am intrigued. If there is something I'm not understanding, I'd like to learn it, but I can't comprehend how what you are saying would make any sort of physical sense.

That's fair especially considering the disruptive nature of Bitcoin technology in general.  

Satoshi, whether by design or not, did not attempt to trademark Bitcoin, even though he could have.

Maybe clarity lies in appreciating the distinction between the Bitcoin protocol and the Bitcoin block-chain.  Specifically, no matter whether any coin uses the Bitcoin protocol, there is only one original Bitcoin blockchain (original Bitcoin, main Bitcoin, legacy Bitcoin, Bitcoin SHA256, whatever).  Any other blockchains using the Bitcoin protocol are different and distinct from each other regardless of what they call themselves and should have a duty to ensure no confusion between blockchains (e.g., Bitcoin Scrypt referring to itself as simply Bitcoin would be a problem while properly distinguishing itself from the original Bitcoin would not).

And I do appreciate debating someone who is at least trying to be fair, even if I disagree with some of your content.  Respect.
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 2156
Welcome to the SaltySpitoon, how Tough are ya?
While I did acknowledge that there should be difference between trademark/copyright law and what would apply to Bitcoin, no I had not heard of that case as I am not a lawyer nor have I ever studied the law (other than to learn the lingo to win approval of a woman's father, but thats another story). But something does not sound right about your claim. If I was to change the Bitcoin code, and then redistribute it as allowed under an open source license, that would require essentially a 51% attack to successfully change the existing Bitcoin protocol. I don't see how there could be more than one official Bitcoin at any given time. If your fork was accepted and went through, that would then be Bitcoin and the old fork would not.

Maybe I'm not thinking of this the right way, but I cant put into logic how there could be two completely identical but seperate entities. If we define Bitcoin by its genesis block or blockchain surely there is no other way there could be another Bitcoin. If someone sues you for the theft of 10 Bitcoins, you couldn't make your own Bitcoin fork and send them your own 10 Bitcoins, as the network wouldn't accept it and your legal obligation wouldn't be fulfilled.

At this point, this more appropriate belongs in Bitcoin Discussion, however I am intrigued. If there is something I'm not understanding, I'd like to learn it, but I can't comprehend how what you are saying would make any sort of physical sense.
full member
Activity: 129
Merit: 100
Hold up there legal eagle.  You wouldn't be misrepresenting the law just to win a silly online argument would you?

To make sure we are on the same page, are you arguing that because some courts have recognized Bitcoin but made no mention of other Bitcoins, that use of the name Bitcoin by anyone but the official Bitcoin is illegal and will lead to liability in court?  Keep in mind that fraudulently misrepresenting oneself to be "Bitcoin SHA256" is an entirely different matter than representing oneself to be "Bitcoin Prime" or "Bitcoin Scrypt" or "Bitcoin SHA512."  Are you claiming that the latter is illegal and would lead to liability in court because of the unnamed cases you allude to?

If so, it's obvious you do not fully appreciate the MIT/X11 license attached to the original Bitcoin so I have included it below (with emphasis added):
http://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

Quote
The MIT License (MIT)

Copyright (c)

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
in the Software without restriction
, including without limitation
the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
furnished to do so
, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN
THE SOFTWARE.

Thus, if another cryptocoin modifies the original Bitcoin source-code and represents itself as "Bitcoin Scrypt" or "Bitcoin Prime" or "Bitcoin SHA512" they have a legal license to do so, so long as the modified Bitcoin source-code includes this MIT/X11 notice and they do not restrict others from doing the same.   Do you disagree with this statement?

How about the converse?  Could it be argued that the current successors to Satoshi's original Bitcoin source-code do not own the source-code, but rather, have a license to use the source-code  so long as they allow others, "without restriction, including without limitation" to freely use, modify and distribute it?  The million dollar question then becomes:  Would the successors to the original Bitcoin lose their license to use the original Bitcoin source-code if they placed restrictions or limitations on anyone else's ability to freely use, modify or distribute a modified version of Satoshi's Bitcoin source-code, as per the MIT/X11 license?

Taking this to its logical extreme, because the original Bitcoin client is licensed under the MIT/X11 regime and is not purely public domain, I would argue that you, anti-scam, as a licensee of the original Bitcoin would lose said license to use the Bitcoin client by taking any actions intended to limit or restrict someone else's ability to freely use, modify or distribute a modified version of the Bitcoin source-code meeting the MIT/X11 notice requirements.  Wink



Finally, to prove me legally and factually incorrect, I challenge you to cite the cases for which you base your argument.  Otherwise, you are being dishonest and simply misrepresenting the law to win an online argument, truth-be-damned.  I've backed up everyone one of my assertions in this thread with independently verifiable facts and conceded where I was wrong.  

Are you honest enough to do the same?

For somebody who claims to be so well-versed in law, I don't think you understand that a software license is not the law. If I make a software license that entitles me to your first born child's kidney for use of the software then that would not be enforceable. Similarly a software license cannot permit its licensees to commit fraud. Bitcoin is not merely a piece of software, but a particular monetary asset. If you were to advertise anything using the common name of this particular monetary asset, claiming it to be this particular monetary asset or an equivalent of it, and then provide something that is not like it at all in that is not accepted as a valid substitute for the original thing, then that is fraud. "Bitcoin" scrypt would there not be legally recognized as Bitcoin in any court of law.

As for my source, have a look at the pirate case. No ideas about alternate Bitcoins have come up. If the legality of "Bitcoin SHA-256" is in question as the only Bitcoin implied when people say the word "Bitcoin" then why doesn't Mr. Shavers offer to pay his victims millions of "Bitcoin" scrypt and solve the whole issue? That's because they're not Bitcoin.

That's the point you seem to be missing. Intellectual property laws don't necessarily have to do with fraud. If I were selling horse meat as beef then I'd be investigated even though nobody can trademark the word beef. Saying that "Bitcoin" scrypt is Bitcoin is the same.

If you feel so confident in your claim then I assume that you should be more than ready to make tons of cash by offering "Bitcoin" for sale (with no need to specify the hashing algorithm, since the idea of there being only one Bitcoin is a legal fiction) for real dollars and giving people easily mined "Bitcoin" scrypt. If you refuse such an easy money-making opportunity then we can only conclude that you recognize its fraudulence and therefore the fraudulence of your claim.

anti-scam,

If you refuse to back up your bald-faced assertions with actual law or cases, then I refuse to acknowledge your posts. 
full member
Activity: 129
Merit: 100
If we are strictly talking about legal definitions, and no longer discussing anything to do with the forum, you may be incorrect there. Assuming we are talking about Common Law jurisdiction, with Crypto Currencies being a thing that could not be precidented based on previous cases, a judge would try to draw connections to somewhat similar cases, in other words Software name and branding cases.

If a software comes out under a MIT/X11 License called "Duck" obviously they cannot patent or trademark the word "Duck" they can trademark logos, but that is unimportant for this example. Under the MIT/X11 license as you posted, people are free to make whatever modifications they wish. However! If someone decides to make another competing software that performs the same task as "Duck" and then they name it "Duck" the creators of the original "Duck" could indeed sue. If they decided to name it "Duck2.0" they could also sue, claiming that the name infringes on their software and confuses brand confusion. Now if they decide to name it "Goose" techincally if the software is close enough, "Duck" may still have a case against it, however that would depend on other circumstances and how good one's lawyers are.

Bitcoin is a SHA based Crypto Currency created by Satoshi Nakamoto in 2009. If a coin has any other description other than that, it is not Bitcoin. It can be a Bitcoin derivative, but you could not claim under any jurisdiction, that another coin is also Bitcoin. The MIT/X11 License gives people the rights to edit the Bitcoin source and create their own coins under other names, but should someone make Bitcoin2.0, Satoshi could techincally sue them over it, again not that he would.

None of that applies to the forum in anyway, but if Satoshi decided to indentify themself or themselves, while they would not have legal authority over Litecoin, Namecoin, etc etc, they would have legal authority over anyone who tried to misrepresent themselves as Bitcoin, in a way that infringes on his/her/their intellectual property. Satoshi designed Bitcoin for everyone, but everyone did not create Bitcoin.



While I previously gave you the benefit of the doubt when catching you in multiple misstatements and untruths in this thread, it's now obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.  Your armchair legal analysis would be considered legal malpractice if you made these statements up for a client.  

A few things first:

1.  There is established case law on open-source that is applicable to the situation at hand, notwithstanding your claims otherwise.
2.  You confuse copyright law with trademark law when asserting your branding claims, but they are two distinct bodies of law and the latter is inapplicable here.

I'de wager that you have never heard of the seminal Open-source case in the biggest common law jurisdiction in the world entitled Jacobsen v. Katzer, 535 F.3d 1373 (Fed. Cir. 2008) available online at http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/08-1001.pdf.

I'll briefly explain it to you since you obviously have never read this case, as evidenced by your Matlock-esque post.  

This was an appeal to the Federal Circuit in Washington, D.C., from a Federal District court concerning the extent of rights held by a licensor and licensee of software distributed under an open-source license; here, the Artistic License but the analysis is the same.

Here are some pertinent quotes from the case:

Quote
We consider here the ability of a copyright holder to dedicate certain work to free
public use and yet enforce an "open source" copyright license to control the future
distribution and modification of that work. (page 1)

Quote
Public licenses, often referred to as Open Source licenses, are used by artists,
authors, educators, software developers, and scientists who wish to create collaborative
projects and to dedicate certain works to the public. (page 6)

Quote
Open source licensing has become a widely used method of creative collaboration
that serves to advance the arts and sciences in a manner and at a pace that few could
have imagined just a few decades ago. For example, the Massachusetts Institute of
Technology ("MIT")
uses a Creative Commons public license for an OpenCourseWare
project that licenses all 1800 MIT courses. Other public licenses support the GNU/Linux
operating system, the Perl programming language, the Apache web server programs, the
Firefox web browser, and a collaborative web-based encyclopedia called
Wikipedia.  (pages 6-7) (emphasis added).

Quote
Generally, a "copyright owner who grants a nonexclusive license to use his copyrighted material waives
his right to sue the licensee for copyright infringement" and can sue only for breach of
contract
. Sun Microsystems, Inc., v. Microsoft Corp., 188 F.3d 1115, 1121 (9th Cir. 1999);
Graham v. James, 144 F.3d 229, 236 (2d Cir. 1998). If, however, a license is limited in
scope and the licensee acts outside the scope, the licensor can bring an action for copyright infringement.

See S.O.S., Inc. v. Payday, Inc., 886 F.2d 1081, 1087 (9th Cir.1989); Nimmer on Copyright, ' 1015[A] (1999). (pages 9-10) (emphasis added).

The Appeals court ended up holding that violations of open-source and public licenses are enforceable through copyright infringement and that the appellee was infringing the appellant's open-source copyright by not following the terms of the open-source license (i.e., failing to include the copyright notice, not following terms re attribution, not noting changed files, etc...) and remanded the case back to the District court where it was later dismissed as a result of an out of court settlement between the parties.

Besides demonstrating that you don't know what you're taking about, this case when applied to our facts demonstrates that the copyright owner who grants a nonexclusive license to use his open-source copyrighted material waives his right to sue the licensee for copyright infringement if the licensee does not act outside the scope of the license.  See Jacobsen, pgs 9-10. Here, since Satoshi's MIT/X11 license contains no conditions limiting or restricting the use of the name Bitcoin (and the name Bitcoin is not trademarked), a licensee is not infringing upon Satoshi's copyright by including the name Bitcoin if none of the express conditions in the MIT/X11 License are violated.

I'm not trying to be rude but please reconcile this with your last post before you make up anymore nonsense.

Accordingly, I stand by my statement that this forum perpetuates the legal falsehood that there is an official Bitcoin in the legal sense.


full member
Activity: 129
Merit: 100
If anyone still disagrees, please look up the words official, legal and fiction, in a dictionary before responding.
So basically, what you're saying is that you're very angry at:

- Merchants accepting bitcoins
- Journalists writing about bitcoin
- Anyone talking about bitcoin in the street
- etc.

For not mentioning which fork of which blockchain they're referring to? Roll Eyes

lol.  If you read the posts, a commentor does seem to be angry but it's not me.   Grin

But what I'm basically saying is the opposite of what you posted.

I'm clueless. Care to explain again why I'm on the opposite side of where your beleifs stand, please?

Because I do not mind whether merchants accept, journalists write or anyone talks about the original Bitcoin.  My problem lies with the opposite: posts advocating against the acceptance, writing or talking about other versions of Bitcoin.  

See how your statement is on the opposite side of my beliefs?
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 251
COINECT
Hold up there legal eagle.  You wouldn't be misrepresenting the law just to win a silly online argument would you?

To make sure we are on the same page, are you arguing that because some courts have recognized Bitcoin but made no mention of other Bitcoins, that use of the name Bitcoin by anyone but the official Bitcoin is illegal and will lead to liability in court?  Keep in mind that fraudulently misrepresenting oneself to be "Bitcoin SHA256" is an entirely different matter than representing oneself to be "Bitcoin Prime" or "Bitcoin Scrypt" or "Bitcoin SHA512."  Are you claiming that the latter is illegal and would lead to liability in court because of the unnamed cases you allude to?

If so, it's obvious you do not fully appreciate the MIT/X11 license attached to the original Bitcoin so I have included it below (with emphasis added):
http://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

Quote
The MIT License (MIT)

Copyright (c)

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy
of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal
in the Software without restriction
, including without limitation
the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell
copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is
furnished to do so
, subject to the following conditions:

The above copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included in
all copies or substantial portions of the Software.

THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR
IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY,
FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE
AUTHORS OR COPYRIGHT HOLDERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER
LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM,
OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN
THE SOFTWARE.

Thus, if another cryptocoin modifies the original Bitcoin source-code and represents itself as "Bitcoin Scrypt" or "Bitcoin Prime" or "Bitcoin SHA512" they have a legal license to do so, so long as the modified Bitcoin source-code includes this MIT/X11 notice and they do not restrict others from doing the same.   Do you disagree with this statement?

How about the converse?  Could it be argued that the current successors to Satoshi's original Bitcoin source-code do not own the source-code, but rather, have a license to use the source-code  so long as they allow others, "without restriction, including without limitation" to freely use, modify and distribute it?  The million dollar question then becomes:  Would the successors to the original Bitcoin lose their license to use the original Bitcoin source-code if they placed restrictions or limitations on anyone else's ability to freely use, modify or distribute a modified version of Satoshi's Bitcoin source-code, as per the MIT/X11 license?

Taking this to its logical extreme, because the original Bitcoin client is licensed under the MIT/X11 regime and is not purely public domain, I would argue that you, anti-scam, as a licensee of the original Bitcoin would lose said license to use the Bitcoin client by taking any actions intended to limit or restrict someone else's ability to freely use, modify or distribute a modified version of the Bitcoin source-code meeting the MIT/X11 notice requirements.  Wink



Finally, to prove me legally and factually incorrect, I challenge you to cite the cases for which you base your argument.  Otherwise, you are being dishonest and simply misrepresenting the law to win an online argument, truth-be-damned.  I've backed up everyone one of my assertions in this thread with independently verifiable facts and conceded where I was wrong.  

Are you honest enough to do the same?

For somebody who claims to be so well-versed in law, I don't think you understand that a software license is not the law. If I make a software license that entitles me to your first born child's kidney for use of some software then that would not be enforceable. Similarly a software license cannot permit its licensees to commit fraud. Bitcoin is not merely a piece of software, but a particular monetary asset. If you were to advertise anything using the common name of this particular monetary asset, claiming it to be this particular monetary asset or an equivalent of it, and then provide something that is not like it at all in that is not accepted as a valid substitute for the original thing, then that is fraud. "Bitcoin" scrypt would therefore not be legally recognized as Bitcoin in any court of law.

As for my source, have a look at the pirate case. No ideas about alternate Bitcoins have come up. If the legality of "Bitcoin SHA-256"  as the only Bitcoin implied when people say the word "Bitcoin" is in question then why doesn't Mr. Shavers offer to pay his victims millions of "Bitcoin" scrypt and solve the whole issue? That's because they're not Bitcoin.

That's the point you seem to be missing. Intellectual property laws don't necessarily have to do with fraud. If I were selling horse meat as beef then I'd be investigated even though nobody can trademark the word beef. Saying that "Bitcoin" scrypt is Bitcoin is the same.

If you feel so confident in your claim then I assume that you should be more than ready to make tons of cash by offering "Bitcoin" for sale (with no need to specify the hashing algorithm, since the idea of there being only one Bitcoin is a legal fiction) for real dollars and giving people easily mined "Bitcoin" scrypt. If you refuse such an easy money-making opportunity then we can only conclude that you recognize its fraudulence and therefore the fraudulence of your claim.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
Quote
Satoshi Nakamura, the original creator of the Bitcoin project,

I thought Satoshi Nakamura played third base for the '78 Nippon Giants. 
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
Quote
and people keep looking for alterior motives such as why the admins are threatened by alt coins,

Now that is what I call coining a phrase - or maybe alt-coining a phrase.

vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 504

I am still want to know who are this donators and VIP forum participants which have been "negatively effected" by a mere section of the forum...

You may need a new pair of glasses then. The entire board has went to altcoin hell.

Ok, assume I agree with you. What should be done?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
Cuddling, censored, unicorn-shaped troll.
You may need a new pair of glasses then. The entire board has went to altcoin hell.
This looks like an incoming "pair of glasses" war. Grin
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