The legality of sending money abroad using bitcoin - am I doing something wrong?

Superbitzz

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Quote from: olubams on July 17, 2016, 03:20:43 PM

Quote from: AlexGambaryan on May 07, 2016, 05:56:58 AM

Hi everyone.
I am new. I hope this is the right sub for this.

I work outside the US.

I tend to prefer to keep my balance in USD as opposed to the currency at my current place of residence. I have a US bank account of course.

What I do is cash out my salary and buy bitcoins with it.

Then, I send the bitcoins to the american exchange I am using (Coinbase, Circle, or other), and issue a sell-order.

This saves me tons on fees (last international wire I did ended up costing me $70. That's outrages).

My question is about the legality of this. My intuition tells me there's nothing wrong with this (just a modern way of sending money), but I want to make sure I am in the clear.

The reason I have decided to ask, is because Coinbase emailed me asking for more information regarding this action. They are asking for the source of the funds, my line of work, and so on.

I will appreciate your advice or input on this.

Thanks so much.

Alex

I'm my opinion, it depends on the position of the law on situations like that, if the law is silent on issues like that then there is not wrong cos a reasonable person will want to keep his money from the reach of government cos its interpreted to mean avoiding rather than evading but if the law is expressly against it then @op you're working against the law which is wrong... My 2 cents...

i think that is such a confusing situation and no one know the real answer of this question. to be it is very clear that sending of money abroad without paying tax is not legal. and so we are not paying tax on bitcoin then how can we say that sending bitcoin abroad is a legal process.

olubams

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Quote from: AlexGambaryan on May 07, 2016, 05:56:58 AM

Hi everyone.
I am new. I hope this is the right sub for this.

I work outside the US.

I tend to prefer to keep my balance in USD as opposed to the currency at my current place of residence. I have a US bank account of course.

What I do is cash out my salary and buy bitcoins with it.

Then, I send the bitcoins to the american exchange I am using (Coinbase, Circle, or other), and issue a sell-order.

This saves me tons on fees (last international wire I did ended up costing me $70. That's outrages).

My question is about the legality of this. My intuition tells me there's nothing wrong with this (just a modern way of sending money), but I want to make sure I am in the clear.

The reason I have decided to ask, is because Coinbase emailed me asking for more information regarding this action. They are asking for the source of the funds, my line of work, and so on.

I will appreciate your advice or input on this.

Thanks so much.

Alex

I'm my opinion, it depends on the position of the law on situations like that, if the law is silent on issues like that then there is not wrong cos a reasonable person will want to keep his money from the reach of government cos its interpreted to mean avoiding rather than evading but if the law is expressly against it then @op you're working against the law which is wrong... My 2 cents...

GreenBits

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Depends on the two countries involved. Capital controls in some countries prevent the transmission of fiat outside borders. A person in said country would be breaking the law by buying another currency not of that government (bitcoin) with that governments fiat.

In the States at least, you shouldn't be taxed for transferring value. You may pay a fee to move said value, but there are no taxes associated with the simple transfer of value. Trade is another thing, but this is like sending money back home. Which is a one sided transaction, not a trade.

Cresciuanto

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Quote from: abugseuf on July 15, 2016, 05:13:30 AM

yes there is no doubt about this. if you are sending money abroad in bitcoin it is illegal. because bitcoin is still not legalize by any country. so if you sending money in form of bitcoin so it is a form of money laundlng.

yes you are right. it must be illegal. because if you are sending money first you have to pay taxes on it and then you will be allowed to send it. but you can see that there is still no tax on bitcoin. its mean that using of bitcoin is also illegal there.

abugseuf

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yes there is no doubt about this. if you are sending money abroad in bitcoin it is illegal. because bitcoin is still not legalize by any country. so if you sending money in form of bitcoin so it is a form of money laundlng.

Cresciuanto

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if the bitcoin currency is illegal in a country and still they do not legalize it. then it must be illegal to send money abroad using bitcoin. because you cannot transfer the property of a state without a proper and authorizing way. and that will also be a form of money landing.

Das

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My question is about the legality of this. My intuition tells me there's nothing wrong with this (just a modern way of sending money), but I want to make sure I am in the clear.

The reason I have decided to ask, is because Coinbase emailed me asking for more information regarding this action. They are asking for the source of the funds, my line of work, and so on.

[/quote]

You are definitely not doing anything wrong. Coinbase asked all those questions from you because of the KYC [Know Your Customer] regulation on ground for all bitcoin exchanges and wallets in the U.S. in order to curb money laundering.

You are not guilty of money laundering just because you want to do a cross-border transfer.

cjmoles

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It's probably not against the law yet, but that doesn't mean it wont be someday. Not only that, but it doesn't mean they wont try to test its legality by forcing you into costly court battle at some point. I think it's best to be as opaque as possible, while still obeying the law, to be on the safe side. Give as little information out as possible....don't use the gateway if they're asking you for too much information. It's your money; you paid your taxes; you're obeying the law; so you shouldn't have to jump through their hoops!

botany

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Quote from: odolvlobo on May 26, 2016, 11:46:31 AM

I have a paper wallet with 1 bitcoin. If I carry it from U.S. to Mexico, have I moved the bitcoin from U.S. to Mexico, or have I just moved the key? If I left a copy of the wallet back in the U.S., then where are the bitcoins? U.S. or Mexico, or both, or neither?

Tough one. You are right about precedents being developed.
The government will probably look at the answer which suits it and try to develop precedents along those lines.

Syke

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Quote from: odolvlobo on May 26, 2016, 11:46:31 AM

I have a paper wallet with 1 bitcoin. If I carry it from U.S. to Mexico, have I moved the bitcoin from U.S. to Mexico, or have I just moved the key? If I left a copy of the wallet back in the U.S., then where are the bitcoins? U.S. or Mexico, or both, or neither?

Bitcoins are never in a wallet, just the keys are. The keys allow you to move the bitcoins from address to address, but the bitcoins never leave the blockchain. The blockchain is in the digital world, not any specific country.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: botany on May 26, 2016, 10:31:03 AM

Quote from: odolvlobo on May 25, 2016, 03:00:33 AM

Also, consider this: when you "send bitcoins", you are not really sending anything. That means that you cannot send bitcoins in our out of a country. The coins you send to Coinbase in the U.S. could exist anywhere or nowhere.

It might be tough to convince government authorities about this.
They are only ready to consider bitcoin as a currency or commodity. Grin

Moreover, your argument could apply to digital fiat as well.
When you send money abroad, what you do is only make a couple of ledger entries.

I suppose you are right. Legal precedents will be developed, but I believe that they will be generally ineffective.

I have a paper wallet with 1 bitcoin. If I carry it from U.S. to Mexico, have I moved the bitcoin from U.S. to Mexico, or have I just moved the key? If I left a copy of the wallet back in the U.S., then where are the bitcoins? U.S. or Mexico, or both, or neither?

botany

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Quote from: odolvlobo on May 25, 2016, 03:00:33 AM

Also, consider this: when you "send bitcoins", you are not really sending anything. That means that you cannot send bitcoins in our out of a country. The coins you send to Coinbase in the U.S. could exist anywhere or nowhere.

It might be tough to convince government authorities about this.
They are only ready to consider bitcoin as a currency or commodity. Grin

Moreover, your argument could apply to digital fiat as well.
When you send money abroad, what you do is only make a couple of ledger entries.

odolvlobo

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Also, consider this: when you "send bitcoins", you are not really sending anything. That means that you cannot send bitcoins in or out of a country. The coins you send to Coinbase in the U.S. could exist anywhere or nowhere.

botany

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The country you are residing/working in matters.
You could be in violation of foreign currency/capital control regulations.

BellaBitBit

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Quote from: Syke on May 15, 2016, 01:09:21 PM

Quote from: AlexGambaryan on May 07, 2016, 06:06:29 AM

I was told that usually one cannot be taxed twice on the same income. So I assume I am in the clear. Is this correct?

No, the US loves to double-tax foreign income. Fortunately, there are exemptions.

https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion

I second this. I know there are cases of double tax for foreign income. It is good you are paying locally already but check out the IRS laws for sure.

Dinki

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No, you are not doing anything wrong. Coinbase cannot sue you for buying and selling bitcoins: that is what bitcoin trading is all about.

Bitcoin is completely anonymous, so Coinbase is just trying to make sure that the funds being transferred are not used for illegal purposes.

Syke

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Quote from: AlexGambaryan on May 07, 2016, 06:06:29 AM

I was told that usually one cannot be taxed twice on the same income. So I assume I am in the clear. Is this correct?

No, the US loves to double-tax foreign income. Fortunately, there are exemptions.

https://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion

The Sceptical Chymist

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OP take all this free advice with a huge shaker full of salt. And you're probably always going to be doing something wrong. The laws are set up to fuck you, plain and simple.

BitcoinLoan

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Among of other things, for thats why was created Bitcoin! You are not doing anything wrong. Use technology and do not pay the banks!

TheDreadPirateDickstein

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NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN NEIN

Do not use coinbase, do not declare SHIT to any government authority......that is your human right to keep your finances and business transactions PRIVATE or as we like to call it in Murika, what USED to be the fifth amendment.

So the answer is as follows

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj2KSiEeCcM

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