The Lightning Network for Beginners.. - page 2.

Lauda

legendary

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Terminated.

Okay, I'm really worn out. I have no idea how to approach the thread now (after a few replies). Could you ask direct questions? What is it that you do not understand or have trouble understanding; what are your concerns?

I found the exact words from luke-jr on reddit:

Quote

Near-instant confirmation for transactions in a trustless manner, much cheaper than the blockchain.

In other words, if some XT shill comes up here, and says that blockstream will profit from this and whatnot put them on the ignore list so that we can have a decent discussion.

Keep in mind that LN also needs a block size increase in order to scale upwards. However, even if we followed Gavin's plan and did 8 GB right now (I'm disregarding all problems with this statement, and we're going with the assumption that this is the perfect solution) it would be able to handle ~24 000 tps (3 tps at 1 MB x ~8000). This seems like a nice number doesn't it? It does not if you factor in the size of each block. We're talking about ~1 150 GB of data per day (~420 400 GB per year). Obviously this is really inefficient.

Now with the Lightning Network on the other hand:

Quote

If all Bitcoin transactions were conducted inside a network of micropayment channels, to enable 7 billion people to make two channels per year with unlimited transactions inside the channel, it would require 133 MB blocks (presuming 500 bytes per transaction and 52560 blocks per year).

oldbute

jr. member

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This article has good explanation about using a payment channel to pay 1 Satoshi for each second of video you watch. Doesn't look proprietary. They don't mention LN, I'm thinking LN would be something like BitPay but providing payment channel services.

https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/checklocktimeverify-or-how-a-time-lock-patch-will-boost-bitcoin-s-potential-1446658530

Kprawn

legendary

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Merit: 1074

This is how I understand it : At the core of the Lightning Network proposal is the usage of bitcoin micropayment channels. The micropayment protocol allows two parties to open a

channel for multiple payments, and the payments that are made through that channel do not hit the blockchain until the channel is closed. It functions like a Xapo wallet to wallet

transaction... but only goes on-chain once the funds are withdrawn from the Xapo service. I am still trying to figure out how this is going to happen : " Payments channels are made

possible through a combination of a multisignature bitcoin address with nLockTime. " .... I grasp the concept, but not the implementation.. still a lot of reading to be done. Huh

spartacusrex

hero member

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Quote from: turvarya on November 10, 2015, 10:56:10 AM

Quote from: spartacusrex on November 10, 2015, 08:50:25 AM

..
3) You cannot add funds to a room, except for those added at the inception, once the room has been created.
..

Are you sure about point 3? After all, it is just a multisig, so why shouldn't you be able to send new funds there?

No - I am not sure.. Undecided

That's pretty important though, as it changes how much you need to lock up.

Anyone ?

turvarya

hero member

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Quote from: spartacusrex on November 10, 2015, 08:50:25 AM

Quote from: pedrog on November 10, 2015, 08:44:16 AM

Is it proprietary? Patented?

How does it make money?

no & no... and it doesn't. (I think)

My current 'understanding' :

1) Any group of individuals can start an LN room. Securely and trust free.

2) You cannot join a room once it has been created.

3) You cannot add funds to a room, except for those added at the inception, once the room has been created.

4) The group transacts amongst themselves at high speed with no limit on the TXN numbers, in the room, off the main chain.

5) Finally, at some point, the room is closed and 1 TXN is sent out on the main chain, that gives everybody their final BTC tally.

6) If you want to continue, you need to create a new room.

Are you sure about point 3? After all, it is just a multisig, so why shouldn't you be able to send new funds there?

spartacusrex

hero member

Activity: 718

Merit: 545

Quote from: turvarya on November 10, 2015, 09:47:46 AM

1. You give a fixed amount, of how much you would spend max, say for Coffee at Starbucks. There is some mutlisig(that means neither you, nor the sender can do anything alone) and n-LockTime(which means you just get all back, if nothing happens)-magic. That's called a channel.
2. Now, you buy Coffee. You give Starbucks the transaction, which they don't put on the blockchain, since they know you will come again.
3. Next day, you buy another Coffee. You give Starbucks a new transaction, with money for both coffees(note, that they can not execute both transactions).
4. You realize that Starbucks is shitty coffee and never come back to them again. After a while, they see, that you are not coming back and just execute the last transaction you gave.
5. After n-LockTime is reached, the remaining money in this channel is send back to you.

So, this is the same as the ad-sig campaign example, but instead of paying someone every time they show your banner, you pay them every time they give you a coffee. Got it.

Does anyone know if you need any 'new' op-codes to get LN to work ? Does the refund txn require OP_CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY to work, as with other refund uses ?

..

I see now, that as long as you transact with someone MORE than once, especially for small amounts, LN can be very useful.

Although, it seems, you do need to lock up the funds you wish to use for the duration of the .. err.. 'room'. ( I think the room metaphor is quite simple to explain to the 'layman'..

)

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: turvarya on November 10, 2015, 09:47:46 AM

From what I understand, it works like this:

Yes - I think you have got it about right (a pity that no LN devs have joined in).

turvarya

hero member

Activity: 714

Merit: 500

I seriously don't get the room metaphor. It's too much of a black box.

From what I understand, it works like this:

1. You give a fixed amount, of how much you would spend max, say for Coffee at Starbucks. There is some mutlisig(that means neither you, nor the sender can do anything alone) and n-LockTime(which means you just get all back, if nothing happens)-magic. That's called a channel.
2. Now, you buy Coffee. You give Starbucks the transaction, which they don't put on the blockchain, since they know you will come again.
3. Next day, you buy another Coffee. You give Starbucks a new transaction, with money for both coffees(note, that they can not execute both transactions).
4. You realize that Starbucks is shitty coffee and never come back to them again. After a while, they see, that you are not coming back and just execute the last transaction you gave.
5. After n-LockTime is reached, the remaining money in this channel is send back to you.

spartacusrex

hero member

Activity: 718

Merit: 545

Quote from: pedrog on November 10, 2015, 08:44:16 AM

Is it proprietary? Patented?

How does it make money?

no & no... and it doesn't. (I think)

My current 'understanding' :

1) Any group of individuals can start an LN room. Securely and trust free.

2) You cannot join a room once it has been created.

3) You cannot add funds to a room, except for those added at the inception, once the room has been created.

4) The group transacts amongst themselves at high speed with no limit on the TXN numbers, in the room, off the main chain.

5) Finally, at some point, the room is closed and 1 TXN is sent out on the main chain, that gives everybody their final BTC tally.

6) If you want to continue, you need to create a new room.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: pedrog on November 10, 2015, 08:44:16 AM

Is it proprietary? Patented?

If it isn't open source then no-one will use it - and I certainly hope they aren't trying to patent it.

Quote from: pedrog on November 10, 2015, 08:44:16 AM

How does it make money?

That is a good question - perhaps someone from LN would care to comment about that.

pedrog

legendary

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Merit: 1031

Is it proprietary? Patented?

How does it make money?

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: spartacusrex on November 10, 2015, 08:18:14 AM

If I was running the campaign, and you were showing the banners, we would have to start a LN room with just the 2 of us, and every time you showed my banner I would pay you a micro-amount, in the room, and at the end of the week/month (depending on how much you made) you would post the final tally on the main net ?

That is my basic understanding of how it will work.

spartacusrex

hero member

Activity: 718

Merit: 545

Quote from: CIYAM on November 10, 2015, 08:07:45 AM

Quote from: spartacusrex on November 10, 2015, 08:04:28 AM

What I am not seeing, is when 'Average Joe' who doesn't play cards, is going to be using this ?

What scenarios, in day-to-day life, is this going to be used for ?

Posting crap on this forum would be a very easily understood practical example. Cheesy

(i.e. ad-sig campaign payments)

So, just to be extra-clear,

If I was running the campaign, and you were showing the banners, we would have to start a LN room with just the 2 of us, and every time you showed my banner I would pay you a micro-amount, in the room, and at the end of the week/month (depending on how much you made) you would post the final tally on the main net ?

I assume either party can post the 'tally-txn' at any time.

Quote from: Lauda on November 10, 2015, 08:08:19 AM

OP wait for ELI5 from e.g. shorena, Dannyhamilton, etc. Once I find more time I'll explain it as well.

I wait.

Lauda

legendary

Activity: 2674

Merit: 2970

Terminated.

Quote from: TookDk on November 10, 2015, 08:00:31 AM

I assume that LN require to host (or room) to be trusted?
Is there any other applications expect for gambling?

What kind of question is that (You should not assume that it will be only used for a specific thing)? LN can be used for pretty much everything that the main chain is being used right now (it was not designed for gambling). It should be faster and cheaper (IIRC) than transacting on the main chain.

OP wait for ELI5 from e.g. shorena, Dannyhamilton, etc. Once I find more time I'll explain it as well.

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: spartacusrex on November 10, 2015, 08:04:28 AM

What I am not seeing, is when 'Average Joe' who doesn't play cards, is going to be using this ?

What scenarios, in day-to-day life, is this going to be used for ?

Posting crap on this forum would be a very easily understood practical example. Cheesy

(i.e. ad-sig campaign payments)

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: TookDk on November 10, 2015, 08:00:31 AM

Is there any other applications expect for gambling?

Actually I'm not sure if gambling was even what it was designed for just but micro-payments in general.

spartacusrex

hero member

Activity: 718

Merit: 545

Quote from: TookDk on November 10, 2015, 08:00:31 AM

I assume that LN require to host (or room) to be trusted?

I am 'pretty' sure this is trustless..

spartacusrex

hero member

Activity: 718

Merit: 545

ok. Thanks Ciyam.

Now, I am having 'understanding'..

What I am not seeing, is when 'Average Joe' who doesn't play cards, is going to be using this ?

What scenarios, in day-to-day life, is this going to be used for ?

( Funnily enough I can see Banks jumping all over this.. )

TookDk

legendary

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One coin to rule them all

Quote from: CIYAM on November 10, 2015, 07:48:56 AM

Quote from: spartacusrex on November 10, 2015, 07:47:02 AM

Can you join the 'room' after it has been created or do you need to be there at it's inception ? ( I have a feeling you need to be there at inception )

AFAIA you'd need to be there at the inception as it basically requires refund scripts to have been created before the off-chain txs occur.

I have only quickly browsed the documentation though so it would probably be better for one of the LN people to explain things.

I assume that LN require to host (or room) to be trusted?
Is there any other applications expect for gambling?

CIYAM

legendary

Activity: 1890

Merit: 1086

Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer

Quote from: spartacusrex on November 10, 2015, 07:47:02 AM

Can you join the 'room' after it has been created or do you need to be there at it's inception ? ( I have a feeling you need to be there at inception )

AFAIA you'd need to be there at the inception as it basically requires refund scripts to have been created before the off-chain txs occur.

I have only quickly browsed the documentation though so it would probably be better for one of the LN people to explain things.

Topic: The Lightning Network for Beginners.. - page 2. (Read 1828 times)