Interesting how his argument is always that irreducible complexity makes people so fragile, yet he's clearly able to write with just half of a brain.
You have not comprehended the argument that I am putting forward.
Topic: The Mathematical Impossibility of Evolution - page 2. (Read 1907 times)
You have not comprehended the argument that I am putting forward.
What do you need a church for? Use some critical thinking; I posted some great links in this thread. Welcome!
Your links are total shit
Interesting how his argument is always that irreducible complexity makes people so fragile, yet he's clearly able to write with just half of a brain.
Zombies^^"
Interesting how his argument is always that irreducible complexity makes people so fragile, yet he's clearly able to write with just half of a brain.
What do you need a church for? Use some critical thinking; I posted some great links in this thread. Welcome!
Your links are total shit like your perception of reality lmao
So this is not advertisement for some weird judaistic religion? Lol
What do you need a church for? Use some critical thinking; I posted some great links in this thread. Welcome!
^
The barbarians at that time were building pyramids and that stuff lmao.
The barbarians at that time were building pyramids and that stuff lmao.
Those stone age barbarians sure must have been clever; they apparently domesticated all sorts of wild plants and many other clever things that certainly appear to be impossible for modern man; Pye's essay mentions some of these clever things and some others are found here:
100 things evolutionists hate
Dat angry chinese meme. You got me. Where can i join your church rofl
^
The barbarians at that time were building pyramids and that stuff lmao.
The barbarians at that time were building pyramids and that stuff lmao.
Those stone age barbarians sure must have been clever; they apparently domesticated all sorts of wild plants and many other clever things that certainly appear to be impossible for modern man; Pye's essay mentions some of these clever things and some others are found here:
100 things evolutionists hate
Hmmmm, no rational responses to the evidence supporting Intervention, and no discussion of what these astronomical figures might mean for life's origin...
Is that directly from Twilight zone? Or outer limits? Rofl
More please im on the brink to joining your religion Lol
Mutations, eh? Have a closer read from the essay I am quoting:
Yes, its hilarious. What exactly is the reason that you chose to believe this? Do you think a natural origin somehow diminishes human value? Is a star slowly exploding into you not cool enough of a origin story? Or do you just lack the critical thought required to judge something before believing in it?
Why do I support Intervention? It's more powerful than Creationism and more powerful than Darwinism.
Why don't you do some critical thought yourself? Did you judge the evidence of domesticated plants? What about all of the other evidence cited by Pye?
I don't think that this discussion has anything to do with a "cool origin story", my support of Intervention is based on the evidence already outlined in Pye's essay.
How could you ask me why it is that I support Intervention when I gave you Pye's essay? Maybe you did not do any critical reading?
Hmmmm, no rational responses to the evidence supporting Intervention, and no discussion of what these astronomical figures might mean for life's origin...
Is that directly from Twilight zone? Or outer limits? Rofl
Thats a strong argument you got there, surely if something is represented in fiction it must be fiction. QED
I am convinced now, praise the dark lord of creation!
I am convinced now, praise the dark lord of creation!
Mutations, eh? Have a closer read from the essay I am quoting:
Yes, its hilarious. What exactly is the reason that you chose to believe this? Do you think a natural origin somehow diminishes human value? Is a star slowly exploding into you not cool enough of a origin story? Or do you just lack the critical thought required to judge something before believing in it?
Don't you realize that greater than 99% of the popular sci-fi books and movies depend on some form of evolution in the background for their theme and plot? Believing in evolution is believing in science fiction. Fun, but too much of it is a waste of time and corrupts logical thinking.
Mutations, eh? Have a closer read from the essay I am quoting:
Yes, its hilarious. What exactly is the reason that you chose to believe this? Do you think a natural origin somehow diminishes human value? Is a star slowly exploding into you not cool enough of a origin story? Or do you just lack the critical thought required to judge something before believing in it?
I love how he imagines living beings as being composed of legos, like mutations happen when someone randomly grows another nose or something.
Mutations, eh? Have a closer read from the essay I am quoting:TWEEDLEDUM AND TWEEDLEDEE
Quote from: http://www.whale.to/b/pye1.html
Plants and animals evolve, eh? Alright, how do they evolve?
By gradual but constant changes, influenced by adaptive pressures in their environment that cause physical modifications to persist if they are advantageous.
Can you specify the kind of gradual change you're referring to?
In any population of plants or animals, over time, random genetic mutations will occur. Most will be detrimental, some will have a neutral effect and some will confer a selective advantage, however small or seemingly inconsequential it might appear.
Really? But wouldn't the overall population have a gene pool deep enough to absorb and dilute even a large change? Wouldn't a small change rapidly disappear?
Well, yes, it probably would. But not in an isolated segment of the overall population. An isolated group would have a much shallower gene pool, so positive mutations would stand a much better chance of establishing a permanent place in it.
Really? What if that positive mutation gets established in the isolated group, then somehow the isolated group gets back together with the main population? Poof! The mutation will be absorbed and disappear.
Well, maybe. So let's make sure the isolated population can't get back with the main group until crossbreeding is no longer possible.
How would you do that?
Put a mountain range between them, something impossible to cross.
If it's impossible to cross, how did the isolated group get there in the first place?
If you're asking me just how isolated is isolated, let me ask you one. What kind of mutations were you talking about being absorbed?
Small, absolutely random changes in base pairs at the gene level.
Really? Why not at the chromosome level? Wouldn't change at the base pair level be entirely too small to create any significant change? Wouldn't a mutation almost have to be at the chromosome level to be noticeable?
Who says? Change at that level would probably be too much, something the organism couldn't tolerate.
Maybe we're putting too much emphasis on mutations.
Right! What about environmental pressures? What if a species suddenly found itself having to survive in a significantly changed environment?
One where its members must adapt to the new circumstances or die out?
Exactly! How would they adapt? Could they just will themselves to grow thicker fur or stronger muscles or larger size?
That sounds like mutations have to play a part.
Mutations, eh? All right, how do they play a part?
This game of intellectual thrust and parry goes on constantly at levels of minutiae that boggle an average mind. Traditional Darwinists are one-upped by neo-Darwinists at every turn. Quantum evolutionists refashion the work of those who support the theory of peripheral isolates. Mathematicians model mutation rates and selective forces, which biologists do not trust. Geneticists have little use for palaeontologists, who return the favour in spades (pun intended). Cytogenetics labours to find a niche alongside genetics proper. Population geneticists utilise mathematical models that challenge palaeontologists and systematists. Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists struggle to make room for their ideas. All perform a cerebral dance of elegant form and exquisite symmetry.
Their dance is, ironically, evolution writ large throughout science as a process. New bits of data are put forth to a peer group. The new data are discussed, written about, criticised, written about again, criticised some more. This is gradualism at work, shaping, reshaping and reshaping again if necessary until the new data can comfortably fit into the current paradigm in any field, whatever it is. This is necessary to make it conform as closely as possible to every concerned scientist's current way of thinking. To do it any other way is to invite prompt rejection under a fusillade of withering criticism.
This system of excruciating "peer review" is how independent thinkers among scientists have always been kept in line. Darwin was an outsider until he barged into the club by sheer, overpowering brilliance. Patent clerk Einstein did the same. On the other hand, Alfred Wegener was the German meteorologist who figured out plate tectonics in 1915. Because he dared to bruise the egos of "authorities" outside his own field, he saw his brilliant discovery buried under spiteful criticism that held it down for 50 years. Every scientist in the game knows how it is played--and very few dare to challenge its rules.
The restrictions on scientists are severe, but for a very good reason. They work at the leading edges of knowledge, from where the view can be anything from confusing to downright terrifying. Among those who study the processes of life on Earth, they must cope with the knowledge that a surprising number of species have no business being here. In some cases, they can't even be here. Yet they are, for better or worse, and those worst-case examples must be hidden or at least obscured from the general public. But no matter how often facts are twisted, data are concealed or reality is denied, the truth is out there.
By gradual but constant changes, influenced by adaptive pressures in their environment that cause physical modifications to persist if they are advantageous.
Can you specify the kind of gradual change you're referring to?
In any population of plants or animals, over time, random genetic mutations will occur. Most will be detrimental, some will have a neutral effect and some will confer a selective advantage, however small or seemingly inconsequential it might appear.
Really? But wouldn't the overall population have a gene pool deep enough to absorb and dilute even a large change? Wouldn't a small change rapidly disappear?
Well, yes, it probably would. But not in an isolated segment of the overall population. An isolated group would have a much shallower gene pool, so positive mutations would stand a much better chance of establishing a permanent place in it.
Really? What if that positive mutation gets established in the isolated group, then somehow the isolated group gets back together with the main population? Poof! The mutation will be absorbed and disappear.
Well, maybe. So let's make sure the isolated population can't get back with the main group until crossbreeding is no longer possible.
How would you do that?
Put a mountain range between them, something impossible to cross.
If it's impossible to cross, how did the isolated group get there in the first place?
If you're asking me just how isolated is isolated, let me ask you one. What kind of mutations were you talking about being absorbed?
Small, absolutely random changes in base pairs at the gene level.
Really? Why not at the chromosome level? Wouldn't change at the base pair level be entirely too small to create any significant change? Wouldn't a mutation almost have to be at the chromosome level to be noticeable?
Who says? Change at that level would probably be too much, something the organism couldn't tolerate.
Maybe we're putting too much emphasis on mutations.
Right! What about environmental pressures? What if a species suddenly found itself having to survive in a significantly changed environment?
One where its members must adapt to the new circumstances or die out?
Exactly! How would they adapt? Could they just will themselves to grow thicker fur or stronger muscles or larger size?
That sounds like mutations have to play a part.
Mutations, eh? All right, how do they play a part?
This game of intellectual thrust and parry goes on constantly at levels of minutiae that boggle an average mind. Traditional Darwinists are one-upped by neo-Darwinists at every turn. Quantum evolutionists refashion the work of those who support the theory of peripheral isolates. Mathematicians model mutation rates and selective forces, which biologists do not trust. Geneticists have little use for palaeontologists, who return the favour in spades (pun intended). Cytogenetics labours to find a niche alongside genetics proper. Population geneticists utilise mathematical models that challenge palaeontologists and systematists. Sociobiologists and evolutionary psychologists struggle to make room for their ideas. All perform a cerebral dance of elegant form and exquisite symmetry.
Their dance is, ironically, evolution writ large throughout science as a process. New bits of data are put forth to a peer group. The new data are discussed, written about, criticised, written about again, criticised some more. This is gradualism at work, shaping, reshaping and reshaping again if necessary until the new data can comfortably fit into the current paradigm in any field, whatever it is. This is necessary to make it conform as closely as possible to every concerned scientist's current way of thinking. To do it any other way is to invite prompt rejection under a fusillade of withering criticism.
This system of excruciating "peer review" is how independent thinkers among scientists have always been kept in line. Darwin was an outsider until he barged into the club by sheer, overpowering brilliance. Patent clerk Einstein did the same. On the other hand, Alfred Wegener was the German meteorologist who figured out plate tectonics in 1915. Because he dared to bruise the egos of "authorities" outside his own field, he saw his brilliant discovery buried under spiteful criticism that held it down for 50 years. Every scientist in the game knows how it is played--and very few dare to challenge its rules.
The restrictions on scientists are severe, but for a very good reason. They work at the leading edges of knowledge, from where the view can be anything from confusing to downright terrifying. Among those who study the processes of life on Earth, they must cope with the knowledge that a surprising number of species have no business being here. In some cases, they can't even be here. Yet they are, for better or worse, and those worst-case examples must be hidden or at least obscured from the general public. But no matter how often facts are twisted, data are concealed or reality is denied, the truth is out there.
I love how he imagines living beings as being composed of legos, like mutations happen when someone randomly grows another nose or something.
^
The barbarians at that time were building pyramids and that stuff lmao.
The barbarians at that time were building pyramids and that stuff lmao.
THE EMERGENCE OF DOMESTICATED PLANTS
Quote from: http://www.whale.to/b/pye1.html
Nearly all domesticated plants are believed to have appeared between 10,000 and 5,000 years ago, with different groups coming to different parts of the world at different times. Initially, in the so-called Fertile Crescent of modern Iraq, Syria and Lebanon, came wheat, barley and legumes, among other varieties. Later on, in the Far East, came wheat, millet, rice and yams. Later still, in the New World, came maize (corn), peppers, beans, squash, tomatoes and potatoes.
Many have "wild" predecessors that were apparently a starting point for the domesticated variety, but others--like many common vegetables--have no obvious precursors. But for those that do, such as wild grasses, grains and cereals, how they turned into wheat, barley, millet, rice, etc. is a profound mystery.
No botanist can conclusively explain how wild plants gave rise to domesticated ones. The emphasis here is on "conclusively". Botanists have no trouble hypothesising elaborate scenarios in which Neolithic (New Stone Age) farmers somehow figured out how to hybridise wild grasses, grains and cereals, not unlike Gregor Mendel when he cross-bred pea plants to figure out the mechanics of genetic inheritance. It all sounds so simple and so logical, almost no one outside scientific circles ever examines it closely.
But that brings up what Charles Darwin himself called the "abominable mystery" of flowering plants. The first ones appear in the fossil record between 150 and 130 million years ago, primed to multiply into over 200,000 known species. But no one can explain their presence because there is no connective link to any form of plants that preceded them. It is as if--dare I say it?--they were brought to Earth by something akin to You Know What. If so, then it could well be that they were delivered with a built-in capacity to develop multiple chromosome sets, and somehow our Neolithic forebears cracked the codes for the ones most advantageous to humans.
However the codes were cracked, the great expansion of genetic material in each cell of the domestic varieties caused them to grow much larger than their wild ancestors. As they grew, their seeds and grains became large enough to be easily seen and picked up and manipulated by human fingers. Simultaneously, the seeds and grains softened to a degree where they could be milled, cooked and consumed. And at the same time, their cellular chemistry was altered enough to begin providing nourishment to humans who ate them. The only word that remotely equates with that achievement is: miracle.
Of course, "miracle" implies that there was actually a chance that such complex manipulations of nature could be carried out by primitive yeomen in eight geographical areas over 5,000 years. This strains credulity because, in each case, in each area, someone actually had to look at a wild progenitor and imagine what it could become, or should become, or would become. Then they somehow had to ensure that their vision would be carried forward through countless generations that had to remain committed to planting, harvesting, culling and crossbreeding wild plants that put no food on their tables during their lifetimes, but which might feed their descendants in some remotely distant future.
It is difficult to try to concoct a more unlikely, more absurd, scenario, yet to modern-day botanists it is a gospel they believe with a fervor that puts many "six day" Creationists to shame. Why? Because to confront its towering absurdity would force them to turn to You Know What for a more logical and plausible explanation.
To domesticate a wild plant without using artificial (i.e., genetic) manipulation, it must be modified by directed crossbreeding, which is only possible through the efforts of humans. So the equation is simple. Firstly, wild ancestors for many (but not all) domestic plants do seem apparent. Secondly, most domesticated versions did appear from 10,000 to 5,000 years ago. Thirdly, the humans alive at that time were primitive barbarians. Fourthly, in the past 5,000 years, no plants have been domesticated that are nearly as valuable as the dozens that were "created" by the earliest farmers all around the world. Put an equal sign after those four factors and it definitely does not add up to any kind of Darwinian model.
Botanists know they have a serious problem here, but all they can suggest is that it simply had to have occurred by natural means because no other intervention--by God or You Know What--can be considered under any circumstances. That unwavering stance is maintained by all scientists, not just botanists, to exclude overwhelming evidence such as the fact that in 1837 the Botanical Garden in St Petersburg, Russia, began concerted attempts to cultivate wild rye into a new form of domestication. They are still trying, because their rye has lost none of its wild traits, especially the fragility of its stalk and its small grain. Therein lies the most embarrassing conundrum botanists face.
Many have "wild" predecessors that were apparently a starting point for the domesticated variety, but others--like many common vegetables--have no obvious precursors. But for those that do, such as wild grasses, grains and cereals, how they turned into wheat, barley, millet, rice, etc. is a profound mystery.
No botanist can conclusively explain how wild plants gave rise to domesticated ones. The emphasis here is on "conclusively". Botanists have no trouble hypothesising elaborate scenarios in which Neolithic (New Stone Age) farmers somehow figured out how to hybridise wild grasses, grains and cereals, not unlike Gregor Mendel when he cross-bred pea plants to figure out the mechanics of genetic inheritance. It all sounds so simple and so logical, almost no one outside scientific circles ever examines it closely.
But that brings up what Charles Darwin himself called the "abominable mystery" of flowering plants. The first ones appear in the fossil record between 150 and 130 million years ago, primed to multiply into over 200,000 known species. But no one can explain their presence because there is no connective link to any form of plants that preceded them. It is as if--dare I say it?--they were brought to Earth by something akin to You Know What. If so, then it could well be that they were delivered with a built-in capacity to develop multiple chromosome sets, and somehow our Neolithic forebears cracked the codes for the ones most advantageous to humans.
However the codes were cracked, the great expansion of genetic material in each cell of the domestic varieties caused them to grow much larger than their wild ancestors. As they grew, their seeds and grains became large enough to be easily seen and picked up and manipulated by human fingers. Simultaneously, the seeds and grains softened to a degree where they could be milled, cooked and consumed. And at the same time, their cellular chemistry was altered enough to begin providing nourishment to humans who ate them. The only word that remotely equates with that achievement is: miracle.
Of course, "miracle" implies that there was actually a chance that such complex manipulations of nature could be carried out by primitive yeomen in eight geographical areas over 5,000 years. This strains credulity because, in each case, in each area, someone actually had to look at a wild progenitor and imagine what it could become, or should become, or would become. Then they somehow had to ensure that their vision would be carried forward through countless generations that had to remain committed to planting, harvesting, culling and crossbreeding wild plants that put no food on their tables during their lifetimes, but which might feed their descendants in some remotely distant future.
It is difficult to try to concoct a more unlikely, more absurd, scenario, yet to modern-day botanists it is a gospel they believe with a fervor that puts many "six day" Creationists to shame. Why? Because to confront its towering absurdity would force them to turn to You Know What for a more logical and plausible explanation.
To domesticate a wild plant without using artificial (i.e., genetic) manipulation, it must be modified by directed crossbreeding, which is only possible through the efforts of humans. So the equation is simple. Firstly, wild ancestors for many (but not all) domestic plants do seem apparent. Secondly, most domesticated versions did appear from 10,000 to 5,000 years ago. Thirdly, the humans alive at that time were primitive barbarians. Fourthly, in the past 5,000 years, no plants have been domesticated that are nearly as valuable as the dozens that were "created" by the earliest farmers all around the world. Put an equal sign after those four factors and it definitely does not add up to any kind of Darwinian model.
Botanists know they have a serious problem here, but all they can suggest is that it simply had to have occurred by natural means because no other intervention--by God or You Know What--can be considered under any circumstances. That unwavering stance is maintained by all scientists, not just botanists, to exclude overwhelming evidence such as the fact that in 1837 the Botanical Garden in St Petersburg, Russia, began concerted attempts to cultivate wild rye into a new form of domestication. They are still trying, because their rye has lost none of its wild traits, especially the fragility of its stalk and its small grain. Therein lies the most embarrassing conundrum botanists face.
hahahaha
Don't laugh! I, too, don't lean toward creation, but have to admit that the OP got me to a thinkin'. Further, I'd say it's a stronger argument than what the Flat Earthers present, they, too, got me to a thinkin', albeit not as much as the OP above (this thread, not the dome).
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