Topic: The Moral Character of Cryptocurrency-Related Work - page 2. (Read 2752 times)

Then you just end up making a Rube Goldberg permissioned ledgerr.  In the real world, force is the final arbiter of consensus, which is why Bitcoin is based on the same principle.  PoW is just a wargame exercise moved from physical to digital space.  It works because force, violence, whatever you want to call it, always trumps reputation, age, or any other variable.  

Since Satoshi didn't and can't solve Byzantine generals, the only way the system can work is leveraging the variable of confirmations, which has no upper limit, with an open entropy source to make it impossible for a permanent monopoly of block validators from occuring over a long enough timeline.  

Get rid of perputal mining, then you have a permissioned ledger falling under the privatized vs public money aspect.  Get rid of the unbounded entropy source, then your confirmations go from useful to worthless.

Some type of Negative Feedback such as a decline in amount or a freezing the amount in place for extended periods of time when they become too centralized to allow others to catch up.
Tricky part is whatever Negative feedback system you put in place, many will attempt to circumvent.
One Negative feedback would be when a miner rate is too high, is to automatically have his new coins split up and spread among all wallets so he ends up working for everyone not just himself.
Creating a negative feedback that no one can bypass will be the hard part.

Tie the negative feedback to a wallet, they will use multiple wallets. 

Just a thought , Maybe if you linked the wallet address to an IP address , you could enforce some type of negative feedback.
If they try to use that wallet on another IP address, the system would refuse it for ~72 hours or so, therefore helping enforce whatever penalty you place on them.

Anyway good luck with it. 


 

No-no, I'm not in the position to buy anything

Just investigating if cryptocurrecy could be used to implement time=money concept for social projects, that have no resources to afford significant investments.

Well of course we all see the point and interest in the concept of "public money". But that is irrelevant if we have no way to achieve it. I can find unicorns interesting also.

Do you have any ideas about how to solve the centralization of mining problem which prevents all block chains from achieving that ideal?

Most of Bitcoin core developers and the Foundation are utterly corrupted. Core devs are building startups on top of Bitcoin(Blockstream, Bloq etc) or serving companies around it. The blocksize drama happened mostly because of different devs lobbying different corporate interests. I think there's no reason to explain how miserable Bitcoin Foundation history is.  So Bitcoin in fact is pretty bad example for "public money" concept. Other than that, I see your point and found it quite interesting.

ETH will collapse if the FED ever had to raise rates again. ETH is pumped up by cheap money and user to value ratio is the worst in crypto. Meaning the price per head that owns ETH is higher then any other coin.

Do we have the changesets for the changes from the November 2008 source code:

https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive/tree/master/nov08

To the v0.1 January 2009 source code:

https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive/tree/master/bitcoin0.1

So we can see who did most of the work on the source code?

Has any one estimated the man-hours for those changes in that 2.x month timespan?

Remember my point was that it required $millions to develop Bitcoin into reliable system over that 12-18 month timespan. And apparently Gavin is very close with the CIA. Who was funding that early development and why. Bitcoin was only worth less than 10,000 BTC per pizza.

And so we do agree we can't develop something like Bitcoin without $millions of investment. It can't be done a lone Japanese guy in his basement.

There's the strict evidence against the conspiracy theory. That is the original Bitcoin code: https://github.com/benjyz/bitcoinArchive . The problem, it is vulnerable as hell and so not usable at all. If we want to build something reasonably safe and useful in an observable time(12-18 months) that requires a lot of money.

The simplest explanation is *USUALLY* the correct one means USUALLY.. not ALWAYS.

And you Bill Byrne'd me LOL
He knows a guy who knows a guy "who said"
That is NOT proof.

Is there some conspiracy after Bitcoin was launched ? i bet yes !
We know the FBI had a pow wow with the dude getting 900k a year.

You do realize the topic is morality and you have once again veered off into the bushes gone 4 by'in right ?

I did not mean to insult you just point out how you seem to be oblivious to things on a level.
A tendency to plow on hard & stubborn on tangents never letting up.
They say you were banned for criticizing Ethereum here.
Which is WHY i brought up that i just got banned on their IRC channel.
It was not a pissing contest to see who's opinion is smarter or more feared.
But a correlation and assertion that THEY are scared Frauds.. unwilling to accept criticism.
Worth pointing out i was not doing squat.. they banned me for some past commentary i guess.
I only noticed because i was afk for hours and my ICON flashed telling me something was said.

Cryptsy did the same thing too.. bans all round.. just delayed out of context & random.
I had mentioned before the Cryptsy Points hack incident because that is how the story was relayed to me..
Those were the words people used when they told me the story i passed along over here on the forum
..from the Troll-Box.
Jim Shockney showed up here on the forum and flipped out demanding i was a liar and there was no hack.
and that they had never been hacked.. time stamps show Paul Vernon saying they were hacked even worse
before the points hack and i think JShock was in on it or knew about it.
So he was lying.. but they gave me a 1 year chat ban anyway (for my choice of words here)
When all i did was relay what i had heard from chat box users the next day.. when i went to Cryptsy.
And.. it did happen too !
They rolled back the markets and mentioned it on their Twitter so YES it DID happen.
SO no i never lied about squat.. and they were hacked.. more than once !
if you believe they were hacked for 12.5 million then shut down.. i think Paul stole the money.
So that would be 1 fake hack and 1 real hack LOL

Who are they scared of Shelby ?
I don't know..
Who is smarter ? seems your hinting at that LOL
Who is the smarter guy here Shelby ? Me or You ?

Look left bud.. see a Penguin with an Ak47 ?  
Do i look "banned" to you ?  

r0ach is just trying to sell you Monero proof-of-work bagholding that he bought. His logic is incorrect. See my detailed rebuttal immediately above yours.

Roach, good observations and strong points!

Does it mean that only Bitcoin is a good basis for social projects, all other currencies are "private" ones? The holders of currencies will benefit and all other participants will loose sooner or later.

I'm rather new to the topic, so sorry if my question is stupid one.

Funding the development of a block chain technology doesn't mean the block chain issues all the money supply by paying the developers.

For example, Ethereum was funded with an ICO, but issuance of the money continued by proof-of-work.

Even Charles claimed in his recent video, that he had favored the funding the Ethereum corporation with venture capital instead of an ICO (but he was overruled), so then none of the money supply would have been issued by the developers.

But I will agree with you on one aspect, which is that if ICOs hand too much control to one group, then they can continue to influence the project and system which sort of makes them rulers akin to a Federal Reserve. We see this effect recently with Vitalik using his influence to propose forks. And we may be seeing this with WAVES or other ICOs having too much control over the float.


Gold is not permissionless. You need a license to mine it in most instances. You pay taxes when you mine it. Increasingly so it is becoming dangerous to carry it with you for the government will just seize it and say you are trafficking it for criminal intent.

And besides, who the fuck has time to go mine gold. And it isn't currency, because virtually no one accepts it.


That is not the case if the developers raised funding, but don't control the ongoing issuance via proof-of-work and if the source code is open source so anyone can fork if they aren't satisfied with the attributes of the protocol.


The slave is everyone who doesn't own an ASIC farm, while they pay $50 per BTC, we pay $600 per BTC.

Sorry your logic is REKTED by reality.

Proof-of-work just trades one set of owners for another set of owners. Chinese mining oligarchy owns Bitcoin. We pay them $550 per Bitcoin. Enjoy your delusion.


It is not different for Bitcoin. The Chinese are extorting us.

Fact is that no alternative will be developed without funding.
 
So please come of your "Holier than thou" Mundero "voluntears" high chair (that you've been promoting after buying it) and take off your bib and stop yammering like your were born 6 months ago.

Would "they" ban a drunk homeless man from the alley way nearest to the Capitol, for wailing incessantly, "Michelle is a HIV-positive, male ICO!"?


Because my arguments have more technological bite than yours. They can deal with you by promoting your reputation. See all that red they put on you. Attacking my reputation doesn't really work. I even attack my own reputation. You've seen the photo of "my" balls right? (even it was stated that wasn't my balls, but let's not engorge on irrelevant details)


Like I said, your arguments are grasping for technological coherence.


I did not implicate the USA govt.

The entire point of Bill Moyers' DEEP STATE presentation is that the USA govt is not in control of the USA.

Satoshi exited after he found out Gavin would be talking to the CIA. So it wasn't the "USA govt" who created Bitcoin.

You don't find it peculiar that no one can find a trace on the "man". Who besides government secret agents are able to accomplish that when everyone is searching for them ("him")  


Bill Moyers and the guy who did the research on the DEEP STATE are mainstream and highly respected. That guy was in a high position in the government.

I did not claim it is falsifiable. I am applying Occam's Razor. It is quacks and walks like a duck, maybe it is a duck. Okay maybe it could be a Spoetnik penguin. So admit you really created Bitcoin didn't ya?  

Please don't use the words "see a shrink" or "batshit crazy" with impunity. Real sane people actually get committed to mental institutions and forcibly enslaved. It is not a joke. I really don't appreciate it.

(not that anyone will ever take me alive in an illegal entrapment, because I am a Cherokee indian and I will die on the spot preempting any unjust attempt to take my freedom)

I have been "speaking out" against Ethereum and the staff here never banned me man..
I suspect it was because of other reason(s) you won't or can't admit ?
I have no idea..

US Black budget groups made Bitcoin ?
It might be time to see a shrink or lay off the "Conspiracy Theory With Jesse Ventura" TV episodes
You would not need THAT much money to code a wallet and launch it with some community support.
Besides..
Where is some tangible evidence ?
We have pretty much none on the Bitcoin inventor as it is ..never mind implicating the US govt.

Don't get me wrong i have railed on BILLIONS of times against the USA's govt.
I am no fan of theirs and i think they are drunk with power & out of control..
And i do think some of the US govt conspiracy theories out there are plausible *enough*
So if there was something for me to go on i would be able to listen and consider the concept.
Sorry i just don't see it..

How certain are you that some branch of the US govt created Bitcoin ? 100% ?
Absolute guaranteed ?
I see things like that as a scientific examination / test.
If you have no smoking gun or concrete proof then there can not be a 100% certainty.
We don't have that tangible proof so how can you say it is proven 100% guaranteed ?
This shouts insanity to us all.. a mental problem sorry to say.

It could not have been made with out the Financial power of a govt the size of the USA ?
It *required* the agenda & backing of a world player govt ?

I think it was some guy(s) who had an idea and had worked on it over the years.
You said yourself there was others before BTC came along.. people have thought of the idea for decades !

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EDIT:

Although i was just banned right now on the Freenode ethereum channel.
I had not said anything in an hour and last just posted a couple topic links from here into there.
Random ban by "chanserv"
They are scammy ass cowardly pieces of shit LOL

@OP
Well said !
I agree and wish i had some input on that for you.. but i don't.

@roach i agree with what you said entirely.
Although it was a rather wordy complicated advanced comment LOL
I think i got most of it.. the usual guys here know i got the basics of the
US FED Reserve memorized
But i think you all have poured more time & effort into thinking about it than i ever have.
Some of the info i seen came from Documentaries and..
As a Canadian this gave me some insight into how it works "over there"
I am telling you all this because.. you can then see what i saw !

For example i watched this.. "Money for Nothing Inside the Federal Reserve - Jim Bruce 2013.mkv" 1.59gb
Mentions the housing bubble + recession stuff & the Federal Reserve
And goes into stuff such as regulations & quantitative easing etc
All in an easy to digest manner.. not too dumb down or to advanced.
(i got it via Piracy Torrent sites a couple years back in 2013)

When you dive into advanced topics with massive walls of text using "big words"
all of crypto tunes you out.. then they go and buy scammy ass ICO coins.

I have been harping on you guys for ages to "dumb it down" for the masses
and yes sometimes even for me because you guys get REALLY fucking carried away
with the tech babble jerk off Mr. Smart Guy crap ROFL

So..
I don't care if people think they deserve to paid
..then want to rig the system / currency to pay themselves.
It's scammy period.
Sorry Shelby i am not bending on that rule.

There is sources that can and do release fair projects out there around the globe
and they do not NEED to scam us to launch them.
This delusion that it is a necessity to take your cut or the project can not be completed is bullshit.
THEN DON'T DO IT !
Leave it to someone who CAN !
Do not create the problem to sell me a fix basically..

It's real simple don't release scammy shit.
THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION THAT IS ACCEPTABLE
THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR BAD BEHAVIOR

"BAD IS BAD" i have said here for years.
Apparently you guys think you can "Justify" bad behavior somehow.. NOPE !

You *WANT* money is not an excuse for ..anything.
Spare me the charade
..none of these ICO's ever launched needed even a small fraction of what they got etc.

Satoshi ?
I lean towards the guy being a group but i do consider still it may have been one guy with some help too.
I don't know.. i have done research and it's tough to say really.

Anyway people don't want to touch this issue they go silent fast..
I am surprised anyone at all replied..
It seems we have so many people in Crypto that ETH got a market cap worth 1 Billion $
But when you start talking about morality the whole entire god damn scene vanishes hiding under their bed.
hmm i wonder why ? LOL

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EDIT:
I sure as hell don't think clandestine sub-groups of the US Govt or NWO "MADE" Bitcoin.

Is Bill Moyers on drugs?

http://billmoyers.com/episode/the-deep-state-hiding-in-plain-sight/

Is this the same Charles who once told me that everyone knows (speculates) that the NSA created Bitcoin? Did you conveniently forget you used to think that, somewhere along your journey  

Cripes man, I was supporting your employee's position on the necessity to raise funds to fund the development of block chain software.

I've never in my entire life tried the class of "drugs" you are alluding to, unless you count the very few times I took sleeping pills in my 30s, the Codeine I took when my wisdom teeth were extracted, and the high powered morphine analog I was given only twice (two 3 hours respites from 4 days of nonstop huffing and puffing burning like hell inside) during the acute peptic ulcer ICU hospitalization in 2012.


Btw, perhaps you've detected that I really don't support governance as a solution. I believe in the "code is the law" and finding solutions other than Foundations and governance. So perhaps that might be a reason for lack of harmony between our respective plans and platforms. I am not sure about that, because I can't read your mind. Just saying.

Edit: also that doesn't mean I entirely reject Bitcoin. Even badly intentioned things can sometimes be leveraged for good outcomes, or even the good can be intentionally obscured within the bad because often people disobey their orders when they feel it is necessary to do so. And I expect the reality is multifarious. We each speak from a perspective of it.

From my perspective, Bitcoin is clearly designed to co-opt traditional finance powers at the nation-state level, i.e. disposable nation-state central banks and too-big-to-fail banks. And the control of Bitcoin is shifting to the Chinese miners and mining farms.

You obviously don't know how to quote as you didn't do that.  I see you now edited your post.  Congratulations, daughter!

You obviously don't have much reading comprehension. It was in reference to the bad shit crazy post above mine. Alex and I have a great relationship. Try again son.

The problem is you don't see the obvious categorization here, private money vs public money.  The Federal Reserve currently lends debt based money into existence and charges you interest to use it.  This is obviously private money and detrimental to anyone that's suckered into using it when it's clearly neo-feudalism through usury.  Gold?  Anyone can find it if they try hard enough.  There's no strings attached to it.  It's not debt based.  It's not issued by a central authority.  It's not possible to be extorted by interest or devaluation by some unknown party just by picking it up.  It's permissionless, public money.

The same dynamic exists in cryptocurrency.  IPO scamcoins are essentially directly replicating the Federal Reserve banks, in that they're attempting to charge you to utilize their private money system.  Even if you remove the interest or devaluation aspects, it's still a system of extortion.  Pay me to use my money.  Private money.  It is capitalism, but it's also subjecting yourself to be someone's slave where they make the rules and you're there to benefit them at your own expense.

In traditional Bitcoin PoW, the block reward does not benefit the issuer, so there is no master and slave dynamic.  It's public money, just like gold.  Everything else that deviates from this model where the issuer benefits is just a flat out extortion scheme.  I'm sorry all of you people want to get paid, but it's not possible in this domain unless you willingly become an extortionist scammer.  The reason this forum exists is for the facilitation of public money to defeat those private money scams.