Topic: The most important thread YOU can contribute to .. this YEAR....no Kidding. - page 2. (Read 1294 times)

mikeywith probably said everything that needs to be said, but if certain people are causing you so much annoyance it's probably best to just ignore them and your problems will probably go away. Take a few days off for the holiday if the board is getting to you but things aren't that serious and there's really no grand conspiracy here.

I'm having a bit of a change in attitude towards life. Up until now I've been more interested in the macro-economic and political issues related to Bitcoin and crypto, and those boards are thhe ones that seem to attract the sig spammers. I'm getting more interested in the inner working of Bitcoin,and the way it will shape our futures. The technical boards seem to be well moderated, and much more interesting.

Maybe Theymos sees the tech boards as the real function of Bitcoin Talk, and the other boards as an income source, and a search promotion aid to help spread the more serious Bitcoin message.

@mikeywith already gave a very apt response.
The system which governs operations on this forum might not be perfect, but it keeps the forum running, and we still have quality content providers. Although we have lost some great posters, i do not think it was due to spam or conspiracy theories.

Any changes made to the system could tip the balance of the system over and would spark changes in other aspects as well.
Theymos as i have come to know is reluctant to make major changes on the running of the forum, and not too quickly as well. There's no point over analysing every situation.

This forum is pretty retarded now but the history of it is cool.  Its mostly  members posting for their signature campaigns to make bIg mOneY  and "legendary members" trading merit back and forth.    There are some fun conversations in a few sections though and it's still a lot better than reddit.

I would just remove all signatures, would clean this place up REAL QUICK.

 I supported your case against the negative trust you got from marlboroza and many others did, including  some other DT members who gave you a positive trust as a counter for marlboroza's trust, or at least supported your claim, as it was very obvious that you did not deserve a negative trust just because someone thought you were "trolling" regardless of the fact that you were trolling or not.

and marlboroza removed the negative trust as i see now on your profile, which is probably the result of people standing up to you.

but with that being said , i think you have taken this too far personal, you became so doubtful by implenting the theory of conspiracy in your brain.

I understand that your goal and intention might be so kind and innocent. but you are also over-reacting and accusing some people who may have nothing to do with the gang that you are trying to implement in your own mind.

while i agree with some of the parts you say, and i think everybody knows that

1- some members are probably abusing the trust system.
2- some members are probably abusing the merit system.
3- some members are only here for money.

My grandma never had a computer and she can bet the house on these points.

but in general, it's not as bad as you or any other person would imagine.

I recently joined the forum, and only started to be active last month, i ranked up to full member straight away , got almost 100 merits in a month and i know for sure that i can easily rank up to Legendary member or at least get the merits needed before i had spent a whole year around, because I know i don't shit post and many people find my posts to be helpful.

non of the DT members ever bothered me, in fact i was scammed once and Ognasty helped out in my case and was very responsive, the Mods of the boards where i usually post are very helpful and kind.

there are for sure some bad DT members, some bad Mods, some bad legendary members and indeed some bad in everything in life.

I might be new to this forum , but i would assume i am older than you, and here is my advice, for any thing you type, you either have to enjoy it or, make money of it. so if you are enjoying launching this war ( apparently you ain't getting paid) i suggest you start it a step by step, take one person at the time, provide whatever proof you have against their actions.

there is no point of deploying a war against a dozen of a mysterious gang that may not exist in the first place.

So meta has been fun and it is always good to kick the hornets nest now and  give things a shake up...see what shoots out...

THESE ARE LONG POSTS BUT DO YOUR BEST TO READ AND UNDERSTAND FULLY BECAUSE YOUR FUTURE TO POST AND SAY EXACTLY WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO SAY DEPEND ON IT.

I have never had an interest in this sub board since I just thought it was theymos and some mods that ruled over the forum and I had never had any reason to think things were not fine as they were...from a moderation level

Then someone asked me to help some newbie who was getting a bit bullied around by some others so I took a look... just to see what they meant. I read over it and thought he was getting a bit of rough deal so decide to just try to help him out a bit.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/negative-rating-from-the-pharmacist-5063753

I think noticed during all all this talk about red trust and DT lists.... what is all this stuff I asked myself? i wondered why some scum bags had given me negative trust for busting their scam projects but i didnt start glowing red with warning I am a scammer on it..

So to meta board then to learn more about all these strange things.

After a few weeks here In meta I have become rather more concerned about this board. I will tell you why.

If it were just theymos and some mods working according to some criteria and their own human common sense to make reasonable and fair decisions and that is where it ended then fair enough. Everyone gets roughly the same treatment... we hope.


However, what I have come to realise is that ICO's presented us with new problem the board was not ready for. .Paid2post incentive.

PAID2POST is the motivation for 99% of people here now including most people who are part of the control systems that grant the access and rates of the payment for posting.

PAID2POST (and trading on forum to a far smaller degree) is the fuel the control systems run on and give them the power to influence posting behaviour more than even the mods and theymos at this stage.

So it is quite simple for me to see how it is working now after just a few weeks of being here in meta.

You need to understand that if you can control peoples rank (through merit) and peoples trust (no red trust you can control the entire board  if the if the vast majority of people are financially motivated to post (or want to trade).

It should not be that hard for people to recognise this.

You need high rank (depending on merit)  you need zero red trust for most campaigns now too (depending on DT lists trust system).

Therefore those (merit sources) and (DT trust lists members) control your ability to participate in PAID2POST (and trade to a certain degree) and your rates once you are even granted access.

So when you then start to discover the same people are starting to control rank via (merit - merit sources) and can if they chose give you red trust at will with almost impunity. Then you start to see the issue. I mean the same people starting to get quite substantial control of both systems.

Now that may be quite worrying. Then when you realise these same people are also determined to participate in PAID2POST and get into the most exclusive and high paying slots then you start to see the problem.

There is no doubt in my mind this PAID2POST  is not a motive limited to newbies alone everyone wants some of this except older legends or anyone who made a fortune already...they tend to not bother or just support projects they believe in or the person who is running it. I have challenged some of the controllers of these 2 systems to remove their highly paid signatures and was told in no certain terms something along the lines of NO WAY IN HELL WILL I REMOVE MY PAID SIG by a member whom is both a DT list member and a merit source.

Now if all members start to require the approval of those controlling those systems and there are no clear guidelines/criteria they the "system controllers " must abide by or no comeback at all for abusing those systems you can start to appreciate the problem.

People start to have no choice but to adopt these "system controllers" ideologies and become afraid to refute their often quite insane claims. I have had conversations with LEGEND members whilst I've been "debating" with these system controllers on meta. These LEGENDS  told me they would like to support my views in public and stand up for my side of the debate but they were scared because it would have clear implications for them and their future on this board in many ways.

Now I say my side of the debate but after having had this debate it is clear that is how things are. The hostility to my proven view backed with stats that there is huge huge merit cycling within 0.13% of active posters. The results when eventually I pushed them into providing them demonstrated around 80% reductions of their merit. I mean I wasn't initially even saying this was a result of deliberate cycling and even now I accept it is likely due to more collisions between mediocre posters sharing views on a small volume (in terms of users) board. However after a time I certain get the feeling there is a bit of gang mentality that has formed already.

So anyway now you have a board where people are not able to post in a normal way and express their views as they like without considering the implications not of the mods but rather of these system controllers. They need to actually support those system controllers or remain silent when they are confronted with the "system controllers" ideologies and claims. This power is far more apparent over new members or anyone who wants to progress up the ranks or continue trading without a red scam warning flashing next to you.

I mean I was shocked that some very high merit high rank individuals can make statements like

"most pre merit legends are spammers"
 
and

that I was an idiot and totally incorrect to claim that some of the 99.93% (the rest of the 150k posters in the last month) of the board are capable of making posts as good or better than the 0.13% (top 200 merit hoarders) of the board

and not get called out on this to explain by nobody except myself.

Then say I have to substantiate everything I say about them or I am a liar and I will go the way of previous liars..... perhaps he means red trust or then again the fact they are going post by post through my entire post history these system controllers and their friends mean business. They have already created some 1 day old sock puppet account to present the initial report but now they have just gone all out there is like the entire gang spell checking my every posted word lol...... happy xmas enjoy the over time I won't be paying you.

 Of course they are not aware that even if their influence can force those that have the actual power to ban your account then your very good friends are fully entitled to continue voicing their own extremely similar views in an extremely similar fashion.

However, now that I have had those good legends tell me they would like to support me but will not for fully understandable reasons I start to see just how bad things are. I mean they are not saying the mods are going to tell them off or theymos will delete their very existence they are saying they are being controlled by a sub lay between usual run of the mill "normal" users and the mods. This is a layer I was never really aware existed. Merit compounds this issue and I believe is far more dangerous than the trust system.

Another issue with these top down centralised control systems is that newbies seeing these legends with their very nice PAID2POST sigs think I want some of that. Then look at the reality now of being a normal user I mean like most on the discussion boards using the board to discuss and find out about crypto currencies...not in some sub board with a handful of users talking about their merit hoards and how to stop anyone under snr member (a view i once shared) having a chance to enter PAID2POST..Whilst they need to ensure they remain clearly able to participate in PAID2POST at the highest rates ... see how that sounds??

 and at the current rate of progress to get to the level where these "System controllers " are....( I mean you can not get to that level of control of course because they are aware by letting too many people in they are diluting their own control) same as letting too many people have an equal (rank)+(clear trust) PAID2POST credentials then you will dilute their chances of taking the most desirable spots.

Since newbies realise this they consider that fact it will take perhaps 100yrs to become a legend if you post in a normal way on the discussion forums and are an average level poster then they see they have no chance other than to game the system.  I mean some merit sources have said they have the discussion boards on ignore. Which again is not sounding promising if i am a newbie who wants to use this board in the way most joining would.

Now all of this may sound very negative.

But really it is very easy to find issue but very difficult to present solutions. I think those systems were introduced to obviously improve things but sadly they are creating side effects that perhaps were not expected. Sound good intentions but I think sometimes you can stay on a bad path too long and it is hard to get off it.

So what to do now?   I am not 100% sure

I don't really know. I am in favour of removing sigs for everyone except mods and a handful of people that have  strict criteria handed down to them to keep order but it is applied to everyone fairly and equally. If not they are out new person replaces them

 Sure a lot of users vanish. That to me is not important because if they are net negative and diluting down collisions between net positive members there is no point having them obviously.

or if we are not going to do that...

The other  idea is to make it so that you can not be in the merit (rank control) system and the trust system at the same time. Have some punishment and removal process for any clear abuse of either system. Also some clear criteria brought in which need to be kept to.

Merit actually is very damaging in many ways as it is and any plans to use these scores as if they are objectively attained on the basis of some criteria that has been applied to every post here is not going to work.

 If it is to stay at all then it needs to be run through a filter like the ones I have been asking for and there needs to be a removal tool. So that if you give merit to something that become provably wrong then you can be forced to remove the merit and with too many of those taking place...bye bye merit source.  

Same with the trust ...if you abuse this system on stupid argument or petty girly fight that has nothing directly to do with being scammed and someone can prove you were being petty or trying to force your will on someone or hush someone up and using that to bully them ....then bye bye DT list position.

I see that these people will need incentive to be part of these control systems so we could let them keep sigs but they must have criteria to keep them in line and ensure they are not abusing their mandate. Not just trust them to act in fair way because that isn't going to happen with no guidelines.

Also immediately add many other legends to be merit sources and on the DT lists to dilute the central control and make it harder for complete collusion.


Perhaps both those solutions will bring their own issues and side effects  and make things worse....so some one much smarter or some specialist in game theory can create something for us. Whatever let us do it before this gets out of hand. I can't take legends saying they are afraid to post what they think.

I would still like to hear why junior boards with people being raised up via merit given under some sensible criteria is not an improvement.
With a lot more merit sources I think instead of people searching around for things to report and snitch on earning your snitcher badges...which i accept right now is needed but really is all very negative. You could be doing something positive like bestowing merit and enjoying helping others become full members getting your err quality spotter badge... I know there will always be away to game things but without some sensible criteria then it is very easy to just blatantly abuse things and people end up not having any power to fight back even when they witness wrong doing and unfairness.