Pages:
Author

Topic: The negative impact of mining farms - page 3. (Read 10799 times)

member
Activity: 99
Merit: 10
October 29, 2014, 12:49:35 PM
...
Remember there is an economic incentive for players not to collude and respect decentralization of the system.
...

>ZEUSMINER EXPANDS PARTNERSHIPS TO INCLUDE ASICMINER, XBTEC AND ROCKMINER

Ignorance.


And simple greed.  Make as much as you can as quickly as you can.  You cant really blame them.  They are fighting tooth and nail with other ASIC/rig makers.  Its not like they have been in business for a hundred years or looking to go another hundred.  The root of the problem is bitcoin core development failed to evolve and keep it P2P and the consequences will be centralization and open the doors to the many downfalls that p2p decentralization solves.

Those who argue that we are not headed to increased centralization sound more and more like denialist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism
sr. member
Activity: 369
Merit: 250
October 29, 2014, 12:45:32 PM
...
Remember there is an economic incentive for players not to collude and respect decentralization of the system.
...

>ZEUSMINER EXPANDS PARTNERSHIPS TO INCLUDE ASICMINER, XBTEC AND ROCKMINER

Ignorance.


 Cheesy

consolidation of small fries != centralization

they probably amount to less than 10-15% of the network hashing power so I don't see the problem

try again, troll

If a small fry controls 15% of the network hashing power, I wonder how much a big fry will control.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 12:30:21 PM
...
Remember there is an economic incentive for players not to collude and respect decentralization of the system.
...

>ZEUSMINER EXPANDS PARTNERSHIPS TO INCLUDE ASICMINER, XBTEC AND ROCKMINER

Ignorance.


 Cheesy

consolidation of small fries != centralization

they probably amount to less than 10-15% of the network hashing power so I don't see the problem

try again, troll
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
October 29, 2014, 12:16:24 PM
...
Remember there is an economic incentive for players not to collude and respect decentralization of the system.
...

>ZEUSMINER EXPANDS PARTNERSHIPS TO INCLUDE ASICMINER, XBTEC AND ROCKMINER

Ignorance.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 10:02:11 AM
Big players making farms.  Sure.  Everyone can see that.  Specialized silicon that would lead to 1 or 2 large players controlling bitcoin.  No.

The intent was a decentralized peer-to-peer system.  Failing to adapt the core to that end put bitcoin on a path of greater and greater consolidation that will eventually make it vulnerable to a number things and non-viable.  It will be replaced by a version 2.0 that is peer-to-peer decentralized and probably has other fundamental innovations.


Remember there is an economic incentive for players not to collude and respect decentralization of the system.

Moreover you are also underestimating the prospects of commoditized ASICs and development of p2p mining pools.


Good diagram.  Really helps to clearly understand your perspective and whats guiding it.  Couple thoughts that I think may materially impact the degree of centralization differently than what you drew.

1. Why would a company making the best (most efficient cost per hash) sell that for less than what they would make mining themselves?  The trend so far has been get public support to raise start up capital.  If successful phase out public to maximize profits.
2. Assuming the best hardware is commoditzed and sold to the public; mining would still centralize around cheap power and cooling.  Anyone paying $0.15+ in a hot climate is not going to be viable against someone paying $0.05 or even lower if subsidized like it is in some countries.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing


to be fair this is not my diagram.

I have no answer for your first question, only time will tell how all of this unfold. As for your second question, my vision of commoditized ASICS is that they would essentially be integrated to regular house appliances and personal computers in a way that they are essentially everywhere and run at no significant premium cost for the user. Of course if their propagation is marginal it might have no significant impact but imagine a world where every personal computer is sold with an ASIC running inside.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 29, 2014, 09:46:51 AM
I wonder what would happen to the gold mining companies if they tried 'hodling' their gold until it went to the moon...

gold mining companies do not have other revenue stream

So basically the BTC mining companies take the money from their other revenue streams and throw it into a bottomless pit, right?

Bottomless pit?

Not sure what you're referring too.

They're using the money to build large scale industrial farms that can mine BTCs at significantly lower prices than even current market price. I'd say that inventory need not to be sold unless the market price goes down to that production cost level.
sr. member
Activity: 369
Merit: 250
October 29, 2014, 09:27:43 AM
I wonder what would happen to the gold mining companies if they tried 'hodling' their gold until it went to the moon...

gold mining companies do not have other revenue stream

So basically the BTC mining companies take the money from their other revenue streams and throw it into a bottomless pit, right?
newbie
Activity: 43
Merit: 0
October 27, 2014, 05:19:53 PM
I wonder what would happen to the gold mining companies if they tried 'hodling' their gold until it went to the moon...

Im not sure as I dont have he data but I think mantaining a gold mine business is way more expensive than maintaining a btc mining business, so they are forced to buy to pay a lot of expenses anyway.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
October 27, 2014, 05:09:22 PM
I wonder what would happen to the gold mining companies if they tried 'hodling' their gold until it went to the moon...

gold mining companies do not have other revenue stream
Right there are totally no gold mines on the stock exchange. Cryptocurrency miners on the other hand......
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 27, 2014, 03:10:03 PM
I wonder what would happen to the gold mining companies if they tried 'hodling' their gold until it went to the moon...

gold mining companies do not have other revenue stream
sr. member
Activity: 369
Merit: 250
October 27, 2014, 01:37:33 PM
I wonder what would happen to the gold mining companies if they tried 'hodling' their gold until it went to the moon...
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
October 27, 2014, 10:30:02 AM
brg444 = full blown retard.. welcome to my ignore list.  Grin Grin Grin Grin
member
Activity: 99
Merit: 10
October 27, 2014, 08:58:06 AM
Big players making farms.  Sure.  Everyone can see that.  Specialized silicon that would lead to 1 or 2 large players controlling bitcoin.  No.

The intent was a decentralized peer-to-peer system.  Failing to adapt the core to that end put bitcoin on a path of greater and greater consolidation that will eventually make it vulnerable to a number things and non-viable.  It will be replaced by a version 2.0 that is peer-to-peer decentralized and probably has other fundamental innovations.


Remember there is an economic incentive for players not to collude and respect decentralization of the system.

Moreover you are also underestimating the prospects of commoditized ASICs and development of p2p mining pools.


Good diagram.  Really helps to clearly understand your perspective and whats guiding it.  Couple thoughts that I think may materially impact the degree of centralization differently than what you drew.

1. Why would a company making the best (most efficient cost per hash) sell that for less than what they would make mining themselves?  The trend so far has been get public support to raise start up capital.  If successful phase out public to maximize profits.
2. Assuming the best hardware is commoditzed and sold to the public; mining would still centralize around cheap power and cooling.  Anyone paying $0.15+ in a hot climate is not going to be viable against someone paying $0.05 or even lower if subsidized like it is in some countries.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing


legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
October 27, 2014, 01:29:10 AM
This is how bitcoin slowly dies from here.  What started as a chance for everyone to generate their own bitcoins and participate in the economy now turns to a few data centers producing bitcoins thus forcing new users to purchase new bitcoins from them.  We've traded fiat currency controlled by a few central banks to bitcoin controlled by a few data centers.

Meet the new 1%.  Slightly different to the old 1%, but they're still there.

Holy shit I thought I was the only one that noticed that. Nice to meet you I have been saying that for 10 months.  Grin
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
October 26, 2014, 11:24:56 PM
Well if the mining farms do put a lot of their Bitcoin on the market it means that there will be a depressing effect on the bitcoin price for a while, this combined with increasing merchant adoption with conversions to fiat using bitpay means a price drop
The question is when the stabalizing effect and market upside begin to return to offset these factors.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 26, 2014, 10:35:54 PM
Big players making farms.  Sure.  Everyone can see that.  Specialized silicon that would lead to 1 or 2 large players controlling bitcoin.  No.

The intent was a decentralized peer-to-peer system.  Failing to adapt the core to that end put bitcoin on a path of greater and greater consolidation that will eventually make it vulnerable to a number things and non-viable.  It will be replaced by a version 2.0 that is peer-to-peer decentralized and probably has other fundamental innovations.


Remember there is an economic incentive for players not to collude and respect decentralization of the system.

Moreover you are also underestimating the prospects of commoditized ASICs and development of p2p mining pools.

member
Activity: 99
Merit: 10
October 26, 2014, 10:18:57 PM
I believe he means that mining has become a job of a few entities (mining farms). Not exactly Satoshi's idea about decentralized peer-to-peer systems.

If you think Satoshi didn't envision mining farms then you are underestimating him

Big players making farms.  Sure.  Everyone can see that.  Specialized silicon that would lead to 1 or 2 large players controlling bitcoin.  No.

The intent was a decentralized peer-to-peer system.  Failing to adapt the core to that end put bitcoin on a path of greater and greater consolidation that will eventually make it vulnerable to a number things and non-viable.  It will be replaced by a version 2.0 that is peer-to-peer decentralized and probably has other fundamental innovations.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 26, 2014, 10:07:47 PM
In one word competition. If it's so profitable what's stopping 100 new asian manufacturer coming online tomorrow at the fraction of the cost and driving hashrate through the roof squeezing those profits? What about Intel entering the market? It's always a risk/reward game you won't see crazy profits for too long, but when you do and first to the game you reinvest to try as grab as big of the pie early on, not hodle because you get way too much money from other business.

So they're not dumping now, and even less likely to dump when market goes up. Perpetual hodlers?? Great business plan with no exit strategy, but even if that's the case and 1% ASIC manufacturers horde up all new coins there's the risk of the other 99% revolting and hard forking you out of the game.

There is nothing stopping them doing it.... In fact there are some doing it at this very moment, have you not seen hashrate going "through the roof" in the last few months?

Again, I fail to see what argument you are trying to make.

Quote
When you do and first to the game you reinvest to try as grab as big of the pie early on, not hodle because you get way too much money from other business

That's exactly what the biggest ones are doing. At the moment, they don't need to sell their Bitcoin to do that.

Do you not understand that them and their backers believe in the technology?

They're going to eat their share of the pie as long as they can sit at the table. They have a business model that allow them to profit and accumulate assets.

Certainly for the majority of them their business model is not substainable. But don't fool yourself that selling their BTC for fiat would change any of that.

Bigger player (Intel) will enter the market once the price of Bitcoin starts appreciating again and grows another order of magnitude. Once that happen, maybe, just maybe, even major first movers like BitFury will be forced out the market but guess what? They will be sitting on thousands of Bitcoin from early days.

Quote
Great business plan with no exit strategy, but even if that's the case and 1% ASIC manufacturers horde up all new coins there's the risk of the other 99% revolting and hard forking you out of the game.

Couldn't make any sense out of this
legendary
Activity: 2833
Merit: 1851
In order to dump coins one must have coins
October 26, 2014, 09:33:29 PM
Sales != profit.

And again you're whole argument seems to be that they're so profitable they can do whatever they want. Even if that the case in one instance, clearly that's not sustainable on a long term scale

Not one instance, most instance.

Tell me exactly how it is not substainable? I should add that most of these companies are now setting up cloud mining services and selling mining contracts at what are most certainly extremely high profit margins.

What is not substainable is this persistent bear market in the face of continuing innovation and development in Bitcoin's infrastructure.

When the price starts shooting up again, these companies will be even less enticed to sell any Bitcoin.

It seems to me you have little to no argument and keep moving the goal posts. I, on the other hand, have brought forward numerous arguments and factual reports to indicate that miners are not all dumping to fiat the BTC they mine.





In one word competition. If it's so profitable what's stopping 100 new asian manufacturer coming online tomorrow at the fraction of the cost and driving hashrate through the roof squeezing those profits? What about Intel entering the market? It's always a risk/reward game you won't see crazy profits for too long, but when you do and first to the game you reinvest to try as grab as big of the pie early on, not hodle because you get way too much money from other business.

So they're not dumping now, and even less likely to dump when market goes up. Perpetual hodlers?? Great business plan with no exit strategy, but even if that's the case and 1% ASIC manufacturers horde up all new coins there's the risk of the other 99% revolting and hard forking you out of the game.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 504
Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks
October 26, 2014, 09:13:10 PM
Sales != profit.

And again you're whole argument seems to be that they're so profitable they can do whatever they want. Even if that the case in one instance, clearly that's not sustainable on a long term scale

Not one instance, most instance.

Tell me exactly how it is not substainable? I should add that most of these companies are now setting up cloud mining services and selling mining contracts at what are most certainly extremely high profit margins.

What is not substainable is this persistent bear market in the face of continuing innovation and development in Bitcoin's infrastructure.

When the price starts shooting up again, these companies will be even less enticed to sell any Bitcoin.

It seems to me you have little to no argument and keep moving the goal posts. I, on the other hand, have brought forward numerous arguments and factual reports to indicate that miners are not all dumping to fiat the BTC they mine.



Pages:
Jump to: