Topic: The new design of BFL Single (Read 6568 times)

Peterepeat deleted his original post lol.

But to address my ignore button. There are a ton of pansies on this forum that can't handle the truth. I just like to shove it in the faces of idiots, morons, liars, and scammers.

  I call it the pussy ignore button. You should press it peterepeat.

So a 5kilowatt home clothes dryer is half 'very dangerous'?

A 10kw residential load is very unusual, but so long as it is a modern house with 200A service and the heat is vented outside though the practical limit for a load is more like 5000W due to plug/breaker/wire pricing issues.

A 6-30R plug would be the way to go.  It can do 6600W peak, taken to 80% it is 5200W. 

Talking about majorities - maybe you should read this here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/poll-should-butterfly-labs-bfl-get-a-scammer-tag-155730

Reminds me of this here:

So...now to make your logic apply you are going for rarer and rarer types of residential installations?

Alright, lets play that game, now we are down to BFL ready® households with 100 amp fuses and multiple 240V lines.

A) Keep in mind that in the USA 110 is the standard while 240V is an exception. I have never seen a residence with lots of 240v lines.

B) I have never heard of 1 PC power supply that can supply 10kilowatts. So unless you also employ a veeeerrry rare 100amp fuse installation....with I suppose 4 gauge wiring...you are talking about multiple plugs of 240V and 8kw to 10kw heat dissipation into a normal non-air conditioned residence.

C) Lets not talk about adding air conditioning to add to the power equation or exacerbate the situation. Instead lets imagine that the typical household as being near or on the artic circle.

Alrighty, let move on.

Your statement flies in the face of BFL's original intent....to provide power efficient MiniRigs. Their power use was a main selling point.

This is not the fault of the customer that BFL failed to live up to this. This is also not a fallacy to have believed BFL's advertising.

Again, you are thinking through this in hindsight.

At the time the MiniRigs were being sold they were designed and spec'ed well within the ratings of a household. You are either new here or you are (for some reason) avoiding reality.

Irrelevant, they were on sale with a much different spec in the past. Now they are no longer available...I presume...because they fail to meet that spec.

FALSE.

These were not touted with commercial grade installations in mind. Hence, they are no longer on sale...see above.

Again, please return to reality when you are thinking up these posts!


False, you do not know where the money comes from to buy these rigs. Some people have said they have taken out loans and remortgaged their house. (No, I am not kidding)

Therefore you cannot assume that (by default) the buyers are somehow rich or have collocation ready to go. To assume this is to stretch reality to meet the merits of an argument.

Does it?

Face palm.

You do realize that 10kilowatts of heat dissipation in any home is very dangerous right? Your only option with a 10kilowatt heat profile is to have dedicated monitoring and a server grade rack.

Just keep in mind, this is not what the MiniRig was intended to require. It has a smartphone display integrated into the front of it for user monitoring. Therefore, unless the monitoring is coming from a person living at a datacenter...it was designed for residential applications. Otherwise, you would have seen server grade software and monitoring built into the device as is standard, in many commercial servers.

After the Power Issue reared it head, (when Kano was there) they had plans to add supplemental power supplies. Though, the Power issue is now estimated far beyond the spec of even that supplementary power supply. Hence, it is no mystery why it is "out of stock".

Hah, I think you need to go back to October and realize that you don't seem to know what you are talking about....

I think a hosting service close to KC will be perfect for these kind of purchase, also the maintainace will be much easier

Valid points, mostly. However, first I have to correct my math. I calculated the amperage for 110v power, so if we are figuring 240v power, it's actually only 31.25aps.

However, a 100 amp fuse should be fine to run a 62.5 amp device, even if that were the case, round the clock. If there are people planning on buying multiple devices @$30,000/pop and running them on residential power, that's a fallacy on the part of those individuals, and not the fault of BFL. For one, they're not even listing it as available, but anybody planning on putting multiple machines like that on a residential service main is seriously failing at logic.

These machines (though they're not even available for presale at this time) assuming a high power consumption or not, are intended for commercial-grade installations. People with that kind of cash to throw at mining rigs have dedicated, air-conditioned server rooms, powered by industrial-grade electrical wiring systems, with battery backup systems, backed up by generators, etc.

If you've got $30,000 to drop per machine, on a few machines, you've got the money to put it in a proper home. That means leasing a small amount of dedicated space in a datacenter.

If you're just going to buy one, you can get away with running it at your home, but you're gonna have to consider its power consumption needs, and possibly hire an electrician to put in a dedicated circuit for you (again, if you've got $30k, you can afford to have this done).

If people are planning on hooking it up in their college dorm room, they probably need to consider a different approach.

But none of this has anything to do with whether BFL should actually move forward with the project or not.

An interesting phenomenon: The total amount of mining electricity is higher when more people are mining, thus bitcoin price will also be higher. But if some of the miners are using high efficient mining devices, they will actually squeeze the low efficient miners out and reduce the total amount of electricity used, and that will in turn reduce the bitcoin price

Of course high efficient mining devices typically require a higher initial investment, so it is kind of difficult to evaluate the total cost of the network hashing power

One quick correction to your numbers. The national electrical code states that circuit conductors that are fed by a breaker on a continuous load can only be loaded to 80%. #12 wire rated at 20 amps, derated to 16 amps continuous = 16 x 120 = 1920 watts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code

You would need an 80amp circuit to pull 7500 watts to run a 1500GH/s unit (assuming 5w/GH).

Well....

Actually that was the plan of a couple of MiniRig owners. Go read up on the BFL forum.

Now that the specs are all over the place, that idea is toast.

I take it you are new to the concept of electrical nodes. Seriously, there is no way to utilize that much power....safely...with 24/7/365 operation.

Residential power is to be used while living. Having something drawing that amount of dangerous load 24x7 is unusual and unsafe. Your wires on a hot day would probably catch fire. I have 173 amps installed in my home. I use my home for "other things" than simply a wooden [flammable] structure to house my mining device.

It could be said that the Minirig is now incompatible with residential power.

And before you tout 240V. Keep in mind that those are usually reserved for 1 outlet or maybe 2 per residence. Keeping 8KW+~10KW+ on a 240V plug is not safe. Even if you divide it into two units. More than 2 units and you won't find many (or any) normal residences that have that many outlets rated at 240V. (In the USA)

Again, you are mixing a dedicated installation with appropriate safety (implied) with that of a mining unit that will consume almost an entire households electrical box.

Could you pull it off? Probably.

Would it be practical...unlikely.

Would it be safe for 24x7/365 operation...hell no.

About 2400 watts on a standard 20amp breaker. Of course, anybody who's serious about putting in a mining farm isn't going to just plug their shit into a standard outlet and walk away.

Residential power can easily throw down 200a @240v. or 48,000 watts, or enough to run 1600 jalapenos @30watts. There's literally ZERO chance of anybody over-drawing residential power with BFL equipment.

If you're talking about their 1500Gh units, even if you assume 5watts/Gh that's still only 62.5 amps. Plenty of residential hot tubs drawing WAY more than that...

Interestingly so is a 100 watt light bulb.  Coincidence?   

Mini rigs are not for your typical miner

I would cancel all mini rig orders if I were BFL. There is no way at 5watts/GHs that product will work unless you have 3 phase installed, or they get some wafers done with fabrication way smaller than 65nm. In either case it's back to the drawing board on that one. How much power can you pull from a typical US domestic power outlet?

Thanks for the story, a potential MiniRig purchase   Hope Josh could read this 

Avalon has all the R&D people and manufacturer contacts in one place, BFL contracted out some part of their operation, an integrated  solution is always slower than a whole solution

But I really think it's good that they don't have MiniRig offering now, this product will kick the difficulty to moon and hurt almost everyone's profit, very bad 

My point is ,yes it has far less wattage then a toaster but it has the wattage of 1.5 easy bake ovens. You probably wont be able to make toast on one but you may be able to make some delicious tiny cakes They should use that as a selling point

Think about Elden Tyrell's "Process invariant" metrics.  So, apparently, both Avalon and ASICMiner have designed an ASIC on an older process node that is more computationally efficient.


This is a bearish sign for BFL.  Especially in the fact that ASICMiner is already moving forward with their newer process node designs.



We all know who's full of BS and who's not now.  Re-structure your plans.

My LED torch is only 1 watt, and your point is exactly?

An easy bake oven is only 100 watts

here are much bastard who's copying me ideas ...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1849955

It sounds like we all paid a shit load of money to BFL a long time ago only to have a few developers, BFL employees, family members making really good money off our own money we sent them months ago. Our money basically made some working units to some "preferred" people. They apparently are picking and choosing who gets what. How nice.

I can't believe I actually bought an ASIC from these guys.  Good thing I got my refund and put it towards Avalon Batch 3.

I do wish the BFL customers well, just want them to do well 2 months after I get my Avalons 

........or just buy two smaller units. If that's not economical, then the problem is hashrate per dollar which has nothing to do with the size of the units.

It also doesn't make much sense to buy a 60Gh/s miner at this point.

The profitability is going down at this point....so if I am going to buy something it has to be superior to 75Gh/s. BFL simply has no way of delivering that at this point. It will probably turn into May and they won't even be shipping the singles. (IMO)

No matter how I keep cutting this cake in my mind, it doesn't add up. I am not looking for "residual earnings" in BitCoins either. The BFL rigs are late to the game and don't make much sense anymore unless you buy multiple units. Only if you buy multiple units and somehow managed to get their old pricing would it make sense.

2.5k is a little much for a 60Gh/s miner at this late in the game. I am waiting on upgraded modules from Avalon. That is the only road I see that is worthwhile at this point.

Personal? I don't quite understand.

------------------------

Here is what happened shortly after I got my Avalon Hashing away at 67 to 74GH/s:

I realized that I should order something with ALOT more hashing power. I was about to invest 30k into a BFL Minirig. Keep in mind, I paid actual Fiat for my Avalon. I didn't just do what alot of miners did (as in charge up their credit cards nor take out a loan).

I paid money out from my own pocket and savings. It was my first mining rig. So it was a leap of faith to be honest. I looked over most products and decided on Avalon because it was one self contained unit. The BFL rig was a close second, but after witnessing Inaba/Josh and BFL Engineers queries, statements and attitude...they didn't look all that hot or right. This was back in October/September 2012.

Speed forward to almost the end of March. I decided after seeing my first miner racking up Bitcoins and watching the wallet fill up (and to be honest the price of BitCoins skyrocket) I decided I should buy one of the MiniRigs @ 1.5TeraHashes/s.

Problem. I had to clear the money through my family for such a large purchase. (I swear on Gods good name I am telling the Truth)

They were fine with it, then I mentioned Inaba's name. DAMN...

As soon as they heard that and they asked me if this was the notorious and infamous Inaba/Josh...they pulled the rug on that purchase. They asked me all the smart questions that everyone with common sense on this forum usually asks. Has this guy or his company shipped any units? My painful answer was a clear no.

Then I was asked if this was the guy in the CES video. I said yes, it was. Then they asked me why in the world I would order from this guy. I really only had one defense to go by, because he has promised to ship Minirigs of 1.5 TeraHashes/s. I explained that this was a good chunk of processing power at any mining pool. (They more or less understood the idea.)

The problem was, they didn't think Inaba would ship especially after several months. So they said "no way" not gonna happen. I couldn't get their approval.

------------------------

They instead asked me what was "Avalon" doing and if they couldn't buy "more modules" or more devices. I said they hadn't really mentioned much on the extra modules and at around that time the batches weren't open yet. No one was against buying more Avalons they just were rejecting the whole BFL idea.

In hindsight, I guess I was impulsive on that idea. I am glad I listened....about within the span of 10 days later, the Minirigs disappeared from BFL's website, replaced with an "OutofStock" message. Inaba then came out and said there were serious power issues. The Minirigs were going to be broken into several pieces. People did the calculations and came to the conclusion that a Minirig would take 8 to 10 kilowatts of power. More than is probably safe to run in a standard residence.

(Or risk getting a raided by the FBI or DEA for suspected pot growing from an abnormally high electric bill. It's an indicator they look for in case people don't know.)

So, as far as I can see, BFL entire product line fell apart....

Right now it is pretty much impossible to buy a Minirig. It is also impossible to get anything above a Jalapeno in the short term. So like it or not, I guess I will be ordering from Avalon once again. I am not as biased against BFL as most people think. I would buy from them if they fired Inaba for omni-potent incompetence and if they actually shipped in volume....well....and if the product actually remains stable over a short term of being in customers hands....which I think won't be the case as they are practically dev units at this point. (In my opinion)

====================

So the short story is, in my eyes, as well as in the eyes of others....BFL fell apart, raised their prices, and will probably be impossible to buy their high end devices...let alone the lower end ones.

This is the type of story where you have a rolling turd that just keeps getting bigger and bigger down hill. At each step BFL has always been one issue after another. To examine that for the last 9 months and not come to a conclusion that it is a bad buy in more ways than one....

It would be a great products to buy (well not really anymore) if it actually worked, and they actually delivered...but it just doesn't materialize en masse.

lol backpedal time....see ya 

Component count roughly correlates with unit production cost, which suggests that BFL could push prices down further than Avalon could.

But yes, I agree that right now J/H and $/H/s (is that equivalent to s$/H?) are more important, with a secondary focus on H/s/m³.

Displacement is also an important metric. It looks like 6 singles could fit in the same place as one Avalon.

Number of chips is not a useful metric, you're discounting die size, transistor counts and many other factors.

Realistically, the important metrics are watts/hashrate and price. If one brand used 12 huge chips and the other 10,000,000 tiny chips but performed the same at the same price it wouldn't matter at all would it?

Remember when I predicted that their super secret hidden killer feature (which turned out to be that) would be near-useless? You can only "upgrade" them by ordering more ASIC modules from Avalon, with effectively zero cost saving per GH/s compared to just getting more units. The new BFL single design will still pack more GH/s into a smaller space and at a lower cost. When it finally ships, of course.

I don't know, you may be confusing me with the guy that's had (access to) a little single for a month...

Avalon actually uses 240 chips...

ohrly?

Are you ever going to change your sig?

Edit: I also love sucking BFL cock, in case anyone was wondering.

Wait, what? I thought, chip for chip, BFL's chips seriously outperform the Avalon ones. Hence why Avalon uses 108 or something chips to achieve 60GH/s, while BFL only uses (im assuming) 16. And while they did seriously miss their power specs, the point is still true that they're more energy efficient per GH/s. I don't run with the "well, everything is alright" crew, as it clearly is not, but at the same time, anyone expecting BFL to ship on time is an idiot, and anyone expecting BFL to be even reasonably close with their power estimates is also incredibly stupid. From the get-go, I knew they would be delayed at a minimum of 4-5 months. So I took that into account. I also knew that they'd miss their power target significantly (not nearly as significantly as they did, but I still knew they'd miss it). I don't support the "BFL are all assholes and fuck everything up" nor the "BFL will make everything alright". I stick to facts. Fact is they've screwed up a lot of things, but do appear to be shipping out now. The quoted section is nowhere near fact. You can say that ordering a batch 1 Avalon is a lot better than a first day BFL, sure (citing the fact that what those customers have now earned will last them thousands of years of electricity costs based on the fact that Avalon uses more electricity than a BFL for same hash power - they're already and forever will be ahead). But based on 2 actual products that exist and have been shown to exist by serveral customers with them in hand, you can't start coming up with crap to troll BFL customers with (despite how entertaining it is from time to time).

Why take it so personal? Because Josh honored you by your not ordering at BFL? 

I still recall Inaba throwing crap at Avalon customers for the size of our units. Except we got them early (enough) and they have been hashing for a little over a month. They are on spec, they work (99% of the time) and they did what was promised.

Now the story with BFL is entirely different....
Products disappeared overnight, and all prices for new customers doubled:
The Jalapeno disappeared and now has evolved into a two chip monster. Don't ask him about the number of chips shortages to come and how that will affect people down the line. The Mini-Rig also disappeared.

Now Inaba is virtually silent on the power and "being green" issue. He probably does not want to tell his customers that each BFL product is an electric hog compared to the original specs. What he was always adamant would never happen to his products. Their profitability over the long term is now closer to that of an Avalon (or much less) with two key differences.

A) The Avalons came out ~on time~ so each customer has plenty of Cash or Bitcoins. The BFL ASIC customers in contrast have lost all that time as "unrecoverable funds" from each delay after delay in the face of increasing difficulty. Their customers are late to the game.
B) The Avalons are actually upgradeable. The Avalons are 66~74GH/s while the BFL's are stuck in nuetral at 60GH/s....we hope....
BFL's 65nm chips perform nearly as bad as 110nm chips.


Inaba is also silent on the fact that their product has grown larger in it's footprint by the day. The compact nature and selling point is all but gone.

Inaba is silent on "competitive GigaHash performance" upgrades owed to their customers. (BFL hampsters are getting 60Gh/s units while Avalon customers got nearly 70GH/s+) Which means BFL customers now have the inferior product.

I could go on, but you'd pretty much get the idea...

if i ordered 2 x 60gh units how many units am i getting now?

"erk" is either retarded, or ... well, retarded.
No other explanation.
Even for a BFL shill his stupidity is just ridiculous.

Oh shit!

erk you have been found out! Quick jump out the nearest BFL window to hide yourself as an piece of evidence...

(Note: The interesting question is why is erk is defending BFL in all their screwups? There isn't a logical point to doing so. There isn't anything to be happy about except that delivery of a sub-par product is finally trickling out. Beyond that, there isn't anything to be happy about. Overpower, oversized and later than Jesus's second coming.)

I think it looks good (although could use some improvements) and it's still tiny compared to an Avalon. One Avalon probably has the displacement of 6 of these. Things are starting to look grim for Avalon batch 2 and especially batch 3 buyers.

Definitely toaster like. Should put in some recessed cupholders for coffee warming since that was the intent of the original jalapeno.

Nice new forum profile created April 14th....

BFL shill?

I tend to think so.

How would some newbie know so much about BFL so quickly and have such an "opinion" of them?

MiniRig = Full Sized Oven?

ROFL!

Now what game are you playing, you want me to work out where the 150watts comes from, I already no that the Single will probably consume around 150 watts, are you trying to make some new point or are you still trying to convince me that they are trying to put 150watts into the old case, or do you simply suffer from poor reading comprehension?

5 GH/s = 30 watts
25 GH/s = X watts

Can you solve for X?

Of course I read your post, you claimed they were trying to stuff 150watts into the original single SC case and I said that you are totally wrong, that's not what they are trying to do and I stick by that.

At least they're trying:

Did you even bother to read the quote I quoted? "the original Single SC case"

Except that you are totally wrong, they don't want to cram some 150watts into the same case, that's why they have designed a new larger case for it, the topic of this thread.

What idiots. The Single case was originally designed for 20 watts, and that's a nice thermal envelope for it. Then when reality hit and the actual FPGA single output 80+ watts, they had to stick another loud fan underneath it to keep it alive. Now they want to cram some 150 or more watts into the same case? Idiots!

"BFL_StevenM (Shoutbox): We are trying to fit the 25/30 in the original Single SC case with modification, but no promises."

"...25/30/50/60 SC case"

Anyone want any toast?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRq_SAuQDec

Nice.  Along with the coffee warmer, they're heading for a complete breakfast set.

Hopefully they use this case for both the 25 and 50 GH/s units, I don't want my little single crammed into the original single housing.

According to the BFL news feed, this new case can house two of the new boards, so it's looking like the 50GH/s units will have two boards while the 25 would only have one inside.

Yeah, I saw this at codinginmysleep, I think its a positive development. I guess this is the 25gh/s, Id like to see the 50gh/s because those are what I have on order and Im trying to make plans for space/power requirements....

LOL, wondered what you were going on about, then saw the picture.
Yeah 7 month pre-orders get the long screws.  

Guessing that is about three times the volume of the original advertised single.

F*cking LOLOLOLOL

Sometimes I hate to be right ...

This for sure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toHlMD50eYY

This maybe:

https://twitter.com/BFL_News/status/327929179100286976

The single is still 25GHs is it? If so you would expect it to be around or under 150watts. My toaster is about 1,000 watts, so I would think you would be waiting quite a while for that toast to pop. 150watt is about the power consumption of a reasonable video card for mining, which can get away with a muffin fan to exhaust the warm air.


It will be interested to see what the power consumption is on 25GHs worth of these Avalon chips lots of DIY people are mad keen on in the other threads.

Yeah, the heat might still be enough to fry some eggs, too 

Looks almost like a toaster.. Make some slots on top...

source?

Nice. Long screws.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5734/1yzoa.jpg