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Topic: The Open Business (Read 1866 times)

10c
full member
Activity: 658
Merit: 100
BuyAnyLight - Blockchain LED Marketplace
June 24, 2014, 02:05:58 AM
#32

The most important thing right is now anyway is like you said: figuring out the optimal strategy so that the incentives line up. getting the game theory right is the key.

very true; converting it to a eth contract is easy once you have the right concept and workflows.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
June 23, 2014, 11:03:12 AM
#31
Because of the ability to run code inside the blockchain your business can be completely trustless.
You basically need to come up with a contract structure and it becomes law.
You can not cheat it.

all the payments can be made to be automated including the shares payout for stakeholders/investors. I'm a bit busy at the moment so I have no time to go in to much detail now but will be happy to discuss it here or over pm.

Eth is designed specifically to do what you want

If ethereum is going to do all that perhaps he can just build his idea within ethereum?

Yes, I would if there is such advantages. But as long as eth is not up and running, I'll work on the Bitcoin way to do that.
I'll educate myself better on the subject, but to my knoweledge eth is always in development.
Seeing the size of their team, also mean that the shipping date will be impacted. Meanwhile I continue the Bitcoin way.

The most important thing right is now anyway is like you said: figuring out the optimal strategy so that the incentives line up. getting the game theory right is the key.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 23, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
#30
Because of the ability to run code inside the blockchain your business can be completely trustless.
You basically need to come up with a contract structure and it becomes law.
You can not cheat it.

all the payments can be made to be automated including the shares payout for stakeholders/investors. I'm a bit busy at the moment so I have no time to go in to much detail now but will be happy to discuss it here or over pm.

Eth is designed specifically to do what you want

If ethereum is going to do all that perhaps he can just build his idea within ethereum?

Yes, I would if there is such advantages. But as long as eth is not up and running, I'll work on the Bitcoin way to do that.
I'll educate myself better on the subject, but to my knoweledge eth is always in development.
Seeing the size of their team, also mean that the shipping date will be impacted. Meanwhile I continue the Bitcoin way.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
June 23, 2014, 10:32:32 AM
#29
Because of the ability to run code inside the blockchain your business can be completely trustless.
You basically need to come up with a contract structure and it becomes law.
You can not cheat it.

all the payments can be made to be automated including the shares payout for stakeholders/investors. I'm a bit busy at the moment so I have no time to go in to much detail now but will be happy to discuss it here or over pm.

Eth is designed specifically to do what you want

If ethereum is going to do all that perhaps he can just build his idea within ethereum?
10c
full member
Activity: 658
Merit: 100
BuyAnyLight - Blockchain LED Marketplace
June 23, 2014, 08:00:09 AM
#28
Because of the ability to run code inside the blockchain your business can be completely trustless.
You basically need to come up with a contract structure and it becomes law.
You can not cheat it.

all the payments can be made to be automated including the shares payout for stakeholders/investors. I'm a bit busy at the moment so I have no time to go in to much detail now but will be happy to discuss it here or over pm.

Eth is designed specifically to do what you want
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 23, 2014, 07:48:53 AM
#27
how does this differ from the etherium project?
and doesn't eth solve most of your problems already?

from what I understand you should be able to do this entirely in eth without any trust.
I have been researching the same kind of thing and don't understand why would want a layer on top of btc instead of running it all natively inside a blockchain.

I have not informed myself enough on eth to comment on that.
However, the problem is not a technological one.
Technologically speaking, Bitcoin as well as eth to support an open business. So why using eth ?

The problem is pure game theory. How to setup incentives to not fraud without a legal system ?
The response is more structural than technological.

But maybe I am missing something about eth. Can you tell me how eth would respond to this problem ? Why bitcoin can't ?

Quote
I have been researching the same kind of thing and don't understand why would want a layer on top of btc instead of running it all natively inside a blockchain.

I don't understand what you mean. A layer on top of btc can at the same time run natively inside a blockchain. Colored Coins is such thing.
10c
full member
Activity: 658
Merit: 100
BuyAnyLight - Blockchain LED Marketplace
June 23, 2014, 07:18:36 AM
#26
how does this differ from the etherium project?
and doesn't eth solve most of your problems already?

from what I understand you should be able to do this entirely in eth without any trust.
I have been researching the same kind of thing and don't understand why would want a layer on top of btc instead of running it all natively inside a blockchain.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 23, 2014, 05:15:13 AM
#25
Opening a new business is more or less compete with the current one.

Competition drives down profit. So be careful who you go after.
I don't understand your point.
I don't want to open a business, I am talking about a way to make a create a business whose financial existence would exist on the bitcoin network. (Votes, Shares, and profit alike)

Do you mean that such system would create high business creation, and drive competition up, so would crush profit to the current one ?
This seems more like feature than a bug for me.

It is impossible to do due diligence with this kind of company.

One part of corporate america is that people are held responsible when mistakes are made.

Is management is anonymous then it will be impossible to see that people are held accountable.

InvardContour, I want to keep founders and investors anonymous, because they can't be sued. It is a feature, not a limit.
The Open Business, like Bitcoin, won't use the justice system to protect itself, but a system of incentives so we don't need justice.

However, the real reason why people should be anonymous, at least for the beginning, is because of the emission of shares with the form of CC.
A normal IPO is heavily restricted to big companies, and by paying large fees to banks. Emitting CC bypass this system, and I fear that such thing is illegal.

Moreover, the founder can't give information about the investors and from where the funds come from, since there would be no centralized institution to emit and trade CC.
Such thing would make impossible for the IRS to fight against money laundering.

This two reasons, to my mind, would make such business illegal. Thus anonymity should be kept.

And yes, recourse would be impossible, which is the heart of the problem.
How to give incentives to the founder to not fraud ?

The goal is to lift the international, bureaucratic, fiscal and political barriers for worldwide entrepreneurship and funding. And sadly, there is no legal way to do it.
sr. member
Activity: 644
Merit: 260
June 22, 2014, 11:10:13 PM
#24
Opening a new business is more or less compete with the current one.

Competition drives down profit. So be careful who you go after.
I don't understand your point.
I don't want to open a business, I am talking about a way to make a create a business whose financial existence would exist on the bitcoin network. (Votes, Shares, and profit alike)

Do you mean that such system would create high business creation, and drive competition up, so would crush profit to the current one ?
This seems more like feature than a bug for me.

It is impossible to do due diligence with this kind of company.

One part of corporate america is that people are held responsible when mistakes are made.

Is management is anonymous then it will be impossible to see that people are held accountable.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 22, 2014, 12:35:08 PM
#23
It sounds like you're in the process of serendipitously reinventing DACs (Digital Autonomous Corporations), something enabled by the blockchain and bitcoin protocol. A quick google should give enough resources to make yourself familiar.

[1] http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7050/bootstrapping-a-decentralized-autonomous-corporation-part-i/ (series)
[2] http://coinwiki.info/en/Decentralized_autonomous_corporation

I've read the bitcoinmagazine article some times ago, interesting links.
They talk about the general idea, the goal now is to make it technically possible, and create the software for. (which I want to develop)
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Bitmark Developer
June 22, 2014, 11:13:13 AM
#22
It sounds like you're in the process of serendipitously reinventing DACs (Digital Autonomous Corporations), something enabled by the blockchain and bitcoin protocol. A quick google should give enough resources to make yourself familiar.

[1] http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7050/bootstrapping-a-decentralized-autonomous-corporation-part-i/ (series)
[2] http://coinwiki.info/en/Decentralized_autonomous_corporation
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
June 22, 2014, 10:57:20 AM
#21

One potential solution is what I talk about when I say "trusted founder, backed by investors".
A key would be given to other founders, whcih has been trusted in the past for other businesses performance.
Such performance is easy to prove (founder owns PaymentKeys of other business), and can't be faked.

That's an interesting idea. Established founders who have already built trust can be used in a sort of "overseer" role. They could collect a fee and build their reputation while protecting the investors.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 22, 2014, 08:53:14 AM
#20
m of n unlocking with investors voting perhaps?

Yeah, I see your point with regards to the founder feeling punished. But sometimes I think it's important to have an actor who has risk at stake in order to make sure their incentives are aligned properly.

This is absolutely true Marlo, Founder should have some "proof of stake" that investors can impose if the odds of fraud go too high.
m of n unlocking with investors voting, I think, is the way to go.
However, who these "N" would be ?
It can't be investors, because nothing would prevent one to buy CC only to get enough % to get one key, and then sell the CC.

One potential solution is what I talk about when I say "trusted founder, backed by investors".
A key would be given to other founders, whcih has been trusted in the past for other businesses performance.
Such performance is easy to prove (founder owns PaymentKeys of other business), and can't be faked.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 280
June 22, 2014, 08:32:25 AM
#19
Perhaps time locked rewards based upon meeting or exceeding certain metrics. Bonuses based on progress. Or even negative bonuses when metrics are not met. For the founder I mean.

They could be based to a sliding scale and not necessarily static. Providing the most incentive possible with the greatest gains when the highest amounts of profit are made. Mutually beneficial for both investors and the founder(s).

And how would you enforce the reward in a decentralized manner ?
A vote by investors is possible and provable, but who would unlock the reward ?
Also, I fear that if founder feels "punished" (by not having the bonus), he would feel threatened which is not very good for long term profit and encourage short term profit, which give rise to dubious accounting and business practices just to meet the goals.

But it might be a good idea to develop, there is surely some way to mitigate that.






m of n unlocking with investors voting perhaps?

Yeah, I see your point with regards to the founder feeling punished. But sometimes I think it's important to have an actor who has risk at stake in order to make sure their incentives are aligned properly.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 22, 2014, 08:18:48 AM
#18
Perhaps time locked rewards based upon meeting or exceeding certain metrics. Bonuses based on progress. Or even negative bonuses when metrics are not met. For the founder I mean.

They could be based to a sliding scale and not necessarily static. Providing the most incentive possible with the greatest gains when the highest amounts of profit are made. Mutually beneficial for both investors and the founder(s).

And how would you enforce the reward in a decentralized manner ?
A vote by investors is possible and provable, but who would unlock the reward ?
Also, I fear that if founder feels "punished" (by not having the bonus), he would feel threatened which is not very good for long term profit and encourage short term profit, which give rise to dubious accounting and business practices just to meet the goals.

But it might be a good idea to develop, there is surely some way to mitigate that.




sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 280
June 22, 2014, 06:38:16 AM
#17
Perhaps time locked rewards based upon meeting or exceeding certain metrics. Bonuses based on progress. Or even negative bonuses when metrics are not met. For the founder I mean.

They could be based to a sliding scale and not necessarily static. Providing the most incentive possible with the greatest gains when the highest amounts of profit are made. Mutually beneficial for both investors and the founder(s).
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 22, 2014, 05:44:54 AM
#16
I published a wiki page about that where I speak about it in more details : https://github.com/NicolasDorier/Open-Business/blob/master/specification.mediawiki

Nice, checking it out now.

I really like this concept and I hope to see it evolve.

Thanks,
I will develop it, this is a sure. But I really need help of idea in incentives for an anonymous founder to do the right thing.
I gave some idea, but I don't think it will be enough.
What I am thinking about is a concept "trust backed by investors" of anonymous founder that would be controllable tool by investors, and would give incentives to flow capital in businesses held by trusted founders.
legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1002
amarha
June 21, 2014, 04:40:26 PM
#15
I published a wiki page about that where I speak about it in more details : https://github.com/NicolasDorier/Open-Business/blob/master/specification.mediawiki

Nice, checking it out now.

I really like this concept and I hope to see it evolve.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 15, 2014, 01:58:25 PM
#14
I published a wiki page about that where I speak about it in more details : https://github.com/NicolasDorier/Open-Business/blob/master/specification.mediawiki
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
June 14, 2014, 11:18:24 AM
#13

Maybe a good first way to try is out would probably be a bitcoin based gambling site. Where investors can invest their money and take out their profits at will without having to trust the site operator like they currently do. Would that be possible?

Whatever the service, as long as it is not physical, it is possible, gambling site sounds fine, since investors know they are sure to have a steadly return from customer's loss.

However, an investor can't take out the money freely, he needs to trade his CC to another investor willing to buy it.
But if the investor does not need money now, he can just enjoy the steady profit of the gambling site.
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