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Topic: The reasons why Bitcoin securities can’t be regulated by the SEC - page 2. (Read 5907 times)

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
You werent talking about the Romanian backwoods 6 heads "government" you are talking about the SEC and a country that has a military that is larger than the next 10 combined. Untill you can show us where MP has taken on the SEC and/or the US Attorney General or the supreme court please gtfo. Also satoshidice is an unregulated security issued by a US citizen who is easy to find.

Not that I agree with what the SEC does but the outcome is inevitable. If you think Im bullshitting MP should fly to the US and see what happens  Tongue

You don't get to set any goalposts for Mr. P 'till at the very least you're done reimbursing the poor suckers that your company has defrauded.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
Who is in your counsel and what credentials do they hold?

Pretty much none of your business on the first score.

No kidding. I sure wouldn't want my real name or professional reputation associated with the nonsensical garbage presented as legal reasoning in the linked article.

You can get much better than that from a first-year law student at a bottom-tier law school. If you paid anything for that steaming pile of intellectually dishonest crap you should ask for your money back.

I don't think the author even read the district court opinion they cited - if they did, they should find a new line of work.

If you have anything substantial to say, it belongs in the comments section of the reference.

Who is in your counsel and what credentials do they hold?

As Internet Lawyers and Internet Attorneys, Mircea Popescu Internet Law specializes in protecting small, medium and large businesses on internet law issues related to online defamation, copyright infringement, internet and online trademark infringement, software trade secret theft and other internet law issues. When you need a real internet lawyer, talk to us first then compare the rest. Chances are we have already represented a client like you on an issue like yours.

http://polimedia.us is a website operated by Mircea Popescu, PLC DBA Mircea Popescu Internet Law. If you have an internet law question, whether it involves website agreements, affiliate marketing, selling counterfeit unregisterd (and unexempted) online securities, online contract drafting or negotiation, copyright infringement, internet defamation of character, domain name disputes, hacking or unauthorized access, trade secret theft, trademark infringement or other issue arising on the world wide web, contact us today.

Founding Partner Mircea Popescu began practicing law yesterday when he wrote a blog post about the internet and has been specializing in internet law ever since! As an intellectual property lawyer who understands the internet, Mr. Mircea Popescu has been featured in articles and interviews ranging from his own blog to Bitcointalk.org. Mircea Popescu Internet Law is large enough to handle complex litigation against the largest law firms, but nimble enough to offer innovative approaches to solving legal issues.

Oh I dunno, just some guy with a provable track record of suing the gov't and winning. Go cook some crow, smartypants.
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311
Who is in your counsel and what credentials do they hold?

As Internet Lawyers and Internet Attorneys, Mircea Popescu Internet Law specializes in protecting small, medium and large businesses on internet law issues related to online defamation, copyright infringement, internet and online trademark infringement, software trade secret theft and other internet law issues. When you need a real internet lawyer, talk to us first then compare the rest. Chances are we have already represented a client like you on an issue like yours.

http://polimedia.us is a website operated by Mircea Popescu, PLC DBA Mircea Popescu Internet Law. If you have an internet law question, whether it involves website agreements, affiliate marketing, selling counterfeit unregisterd (and unexempted) online securities, online contract drafting or negotiation, copyright infringement, internet defamation of character, domain name disputes, hacking or unauthorized access, trade secret theft, trademark infringement or other issue arising on the world wide web, contact us today.

Founding Partner Mircea Popescu began practicing law yesterday when he wrote a blog post about the internet and has been specializing in internet law ever since! As an intellectual property lawyer who understands the internet, Mr. Mircea Popescu has been featured in articles and interviews ranging from his own blog to Bitcointalk.org. Mircea Popescu Internet Law is large enough to handle complex litigation against the largest law firms, but nimble enough to offer innovative approaches to solving legal issues.
member
Activity: 113
Merit: 10
Who is in your counsel and what credentials do they hold?

Pretty much none of your business on the first score.

No kidding. I sure wouldn't want my real name or professional reputation associated with the nonsensical garbage presented as legal reasoning in the linked article.

You can get much better than that from a first-year law student at a bottom-tier law school. If you paid anything for that steaming pile of intellectually dishonest crap you should ask for your money back.

I don't think the author even read the district court opinion they cited - if they did, they should find a new line of work.
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1010
3 and this is the killer)  Crowd funding portals are prohibited from offering ANY trading.  Period.  With no exceptions.

The SEC hasn't finished their rulungs but the Crowdfunding ammendment restricts the selling of shares to any other unaccredited investor for one year after purchase.  The ammendment doesn't prohibit shares of equity in a crowdfunded venture from being sold back to the issuer or to an accredited investor.  What wasn't clear is if those shares can be re-sold again to unaccredited investors or not

I believe the general understanding is that there will be secondary markets, just that because of the 1-year lockup, they won't exist until 2014.  If I had to guess, I'ld think that the crowdfunding platforms will have one or more markets that they will allow their platform's collection of crowfunded ventures to be traded.  The crowdfunding platform itself wouldn't have any involvement in operating the market then.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
How about get signed notarised statements from all asset issuers solomnly swearing their asset is fully legitimate licenced legal and so on in their jurisdiction? At least that way you have clear fraud to point at if it turns out they lied.

-MarkM-
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
Wat
I find this relatively, though not entirely, compelling.

Indeed it is hard for me to argue that Bitcoin is -not- a game... for any number of people involved in Bitcoin may consider it a game and how can one argue with them? The issue of title is also very interesting. Does anyone actually own bitcoins? Is possession of something all that is required to prove title? And if so, Bitcoins aren't really possessed are they... it's the keys which are possessed.

All very confusing. I wish the government would just leave this system alone.

As a US citizen offering unregulated securities to people its not MPEX getting seized people need to worry about , its the fact the underlying security is issued by a US citizen. Just because you list it on a Romanian stock exchange doesn't make any difference to the men with guns. Its not MPEX they will go after its the people who offer the security.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
I believe US Government might recognize Japan Yen is a currency, while US Goverment does not accept it as payment of taxes.

I also believe, that The Bitcoin Foundation is going to make some kind of a definition of what bitcoin is and that definition is going to be embraced by dozens of most prominent bitcoin businesses making that definition pretty hard to beat. If there is ever going to be lawsuits about these issues, you could bet that goverment is going to use that definition as an argument in the lawsuit if that definition suits their purposes. Now anybody could guess whether Bitcoin Foundation is going to define bitcoins as a currency or "play money" in their mission trying to promote bitcoins to mainstream usage as a more modern currency to replace fiat money.

Wait, you're trying to convince me that there are enough "prominent bitcoin businesses" that there can be dozens of "most" prominent ones? 

I may only have a (very) small four figure BTC portfolio, so am clearly not a major player, but I don't think I could name two dozen prominent bitcoin businesses.  At least not that are still operating.  I'm fairly certain most of us can name dozens which have defaulted, defrauded, or simply disappeared.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
Before you get so excited the "Jobs Act" crowdfunding doesn't do what you think it does.

1) You will be required to collect KYC and AML information of all participants (primarily for taxation reasons).
2) You will need to be a registered broker dealer (up front cost is in the tens of millions) or a registered crowdfunding portal.
3 and this is the killer)  Crowd funding portals are prohibited from offering ANY trading.  Period.  With no exceptions.

So even registered and licensed by SEC and with all anonymity removed GLBSE wouldn't be compliant under the Jobs Act unless it was a full broker dealer.  As a crowd funding portal it could simply facilitate the selling of the initial offering of securities.  No reselling or trading.

While the crowd funding provisions in the Jobs Act are a step in the right direction and will help small biz raise capital in a more efficient manner those thinking it is some kind of silver bullet are going to be sorely mistaken.   To be licensed under the SEC a "GLBSE like entity" would need to be registered broker dealer with the mountains of paperwork, legal provisions, due diligence, underwriting, and reporting requirements that come with it.


Yes, I am aware of all 3.

Speaking from the exchange operator's perspective:

1) That's the asset issuer's problem.
2a) I am working on registering in Seychelles.  Will definitely be tackling the broker/dealer registration in Seychelles.
  2b) If Seychelles doesn't work out, there are other options that require a little more money/legwork (Bermuda, Bahamas)
3) I am not targeting becoming a crowdfunding portal.  Most of the good news for crowdfunding is for the Asset Issuers.  Smiley

From an asset issuer's perspective:

For my own LTC-MINING issues I am definitely going to have to go through the hoops of registering under these crowdfunding guidelines.  As I go through the process I will document it and hopefully be able to help other asset issuers through the process later on.  Some of it should be interesting, like questions "how much $$ are you raising?".  Do I say $0?  Or do I say 10,000 LTC?  Smiley

Edit: (3) should read:

3) Because of (2a) I am not targeting becoming a crowdfunding portal as the SEC defines it.  Most of the good news for crowdfunding is for the Asset Issuers.  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
I believe US Government might recognize Japan Yen is a currency, while US Goverment does not accept it as payment of taxes.

I also believe, that The Bitcoin Foundation is going to make some kind of a definition of what bitcoin is and that definition is going to be embraced by dozens of most prominent bitcoin businesses making that definition pretty hard to beat. If there is ever going to be lawsuits about these issues, you could bet that goverment is going to use that definition as an argument in the lawsuit if that definition suits their purposes. Now anybody could guess whether Bitcoin Foundation is going to define bitcoins as a currency or "play money" in their mission trying to promote bitcoins to mainstream usage as a more modern currency to replace fiat money.

I can tell you for sure that any group of people can make whatever association, foundation or whatever else, but any claim that they "speak for" Bitcoin is outright fraudulent (and yes, we might sue if they do).
full member
Activity: 209
Merit: 101
FUTURE OF CRYPTO IS HERE!
I believe US Government might recognize Japan Yen is a currency, while US Goverment does not accept it as payment of taxes.

I also believe, that The Bitcoin Foundation is going to make some kind of a definition of what bitcoin is and that definition is going to be embraced by dozens of most prominent bitcoin businesses making that definition pretty hard to beat. If there is ever going to be lawsuits about these issues, you could bet that goverment is going to use that definition as an argument in the lawsuit if that definition suits their purposes. Now anybody could guess whether Bitcoin Foundation is going to define bitcoins as a currency or "play money" in their mission trying to promote bitcoins to mainstream usage as a more modern currency to replace fiat money.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
hero member
Activity: 699
Merit: 500
Your Minion
Who is in your counsel and what credentials do they hold? What measures do you have and will have in place to prevent an immediate seizure/closure prior to you fighting your arguments in court?

Pretty much none of your business on the first score. As detailed in the FAQ on the second.


I can respect the anonymity but how about their credentials then. Thanks for the link.

His credentials are porno website operator. He host his website fraudulently on a US domain under a false name and address. You are all safe!

 Wink
donator
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Who is in your counsel and what credentials do they hold? What measures do you have and will have in place to prevent an immediate seizure/closure prior to you fighting your arguments in court?

Pretty much none of your business on the first score. As detailed in the FAQ on the second.

Heh this is basically the same argument the Galactic Nexus Uberplan (GNU) folk favour when deploying Martian BotCoin and similar cryptocurrencies (including the Hacker nation's national currency, Bitcoin, from which the Martians derived the technology) on backwards worlds such as the planet known as Earth during such planets' pre-Milieu transition period.

-MarkM-


Mark baby...when you talk to me I can never make heads or tails of it. S'okay if I just nod?

Thanks for the Great info, I'll use it if I ever have to defend myself.  Cry

Isn't really intended for that use. If you have to defend yourself in court you absolutely should hire a lawyer.

@Everyone: the discussion of the thing itself should really be carried on in the comments section of the article, I don't really have the authority to comment much.

His credentials are porno website operator. He host his website fraudulently on a US domain under a false name and address. You are all safe!
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
Who is in your counsel and what credentials do they hold? What measures do you have and will have in place to prevent an immediate seizure/closure prior to you fighting your arguments in court?

Pretty much none of your business on the first score. As detailed in the FAQ on the second.

Heh this is basically the same argument the Galactic Nexus Uberplan (GNU) folk favour when deploying Martian BotCoin and similar cryptocurrencies (including the Hacker nation's national currency, Bitcoin, from which the Martians derived the technology) on backwards worlds such as the planet known as Earth during such planets' pre-Milieu transition period.

-MarkM-


Mark baby...when you talk to me I can never make heads or tails of it. S'okay if I just nod?

Thanks for the Great info, I'll use it if I ever have to defend myself.  Cry

Isn't really intended for that use. If you have to defend yourself in court you absolutely should hire a lawyer.

@Everyone: the discussion of the thing itself should really be carried on in the comments section of the article, I don't really have the authority to comment much.
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Yes, basically if a company gets all its ducks in a row to be able to legally issue actual real world securities then deployers of game currency game stocks game bonds game commodities etc trading platforms should have no problem deploying the same game-tested software on behalf of such a company as a convenient platform for trading their legal registered securities.

In the meantime, lets get on with play-testing these platforms so they will be well debugged and have users very familiar with them by the time any companies do go through the registration process required to be ready to issue real securities.

-MarkM-
sr. member
Activity: 394
Merit: 250
Great find burnside!  Makes me sweat a little less Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1006
Lead Blockchain Developer
I've been doing a lot of research mysel recently.  I agree with most points made in your article.

The most damning of all for the SEC is that I do not believe they could consider bitcoin a currency, for any jurisdiction to consider it a currency (legal tender) would surely have to accept it as payment against tax debt, etc.

However, that may not improve things:

They could consider it a commodity.  Something does not have to be a real, tangible item to be a commodity.  In the USA energy is a commonly traded commodity.  Thus I suspect asset issuers in the USA would be subject to regulatory controls by the Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) on the bitcoin side, AND the SEC for the regulations around how they have to deal with their shareholders.  Simply trading a security using a commodity does not release that security from regulatory requirements.  If you want to be legit, there's likely no getting around the fact that we're dealing with securities.  Their definition of a security is pretty complete:

Code:
(1) The term "security" means any note, stock, treasury stock, security future, security-based swap, bond, debenture, evidence of indebtedness, certificate of
 interest or participation in any profit-sharing agreement, collateral-trust certificate, preorganization certificate or subscription, transferable share, investment
contract, voting-trust certificate, certificate of deposit for a security, fractional undivided interest in oil, gas, or other mineral rights, any put, call, straddle, option, or
privilege on any security, certificate of deposit, or group or index of securities (including any interest therein or based on the value thereof), or any put, call, straddle,
option, or privilege entered into on a national securities exchange relating to foreign currency, or, in general, any interest or instrument commonly known as a
"security", or any certificate of interest or participation in, temporary or interim certificate for, receipt for, guarantee of, or warrant or right to subscribe to or
purchase, any of the foregoing.

The good (GREAT) news is that the new JOBS act in the USA makes crowdfunding a whole lot easier and as far as I can tell, having read through several summaries of the stipulations, the securities issued (using commodities) will fit just fine into the new exchange I'm working on.

Code:
The JOBS Act creates a new exemption from registration for securities sold via crowdfunding offerings, so long as certain criteria are met, namely:

(A)  no more than $1,000,000 is raised via crowdfunding in any 12 month period; and
(B)  no single investor invests more than a specified amount in the offering, namely:
    i.  the greater of $2,000 or 5% of the annual income or net worth of the investor, as applicable, if the investor has annual income or net worth of less than $100,000; or
    ii.  10% of the annual income or net worth of the investor, as applicable, if either the annual income or net worth of the investor is equal to more than $100,000, capped at a max of $100,000 invested.
(C)  the offering is conducted through a registered broker or “funding portal” (a new term made up by the JOBS Act); and
(D)  the issuer registers with the requirements below.
    (a)  name, legal status, address, website, etc.
    (b)  names of directors, officers, and 20% stockholders
    (c)  “a description of the business of the issuer and the anticipated business plan of the issuer” – the devil is really in the details of this one, and it remains to be seen whether the SEC will require this “description” to be 4 pages or 40 in order to be sufficient
    (d)  prior year tax returns, plus financials – see below for details
    (e)  description of intended use of proceeds
    (f)  target offering amount, deadline, and regular progress updates through the life of the offering
    (g)  share price and methodology for determining the price
    (h)  a description of the ownership and capital structure of the issuer, including a lot of detail about the terms of the securities being sold, the terms of any other outstanding securities of the company, a summary of the differences between them, a host of disclosures about how the rights of shareholders can be limited, diluted or negatively impacted, “examples of methods for how such securities may be valued by the issuer in the future, including during subsequent corporate actions”, and a disclosure of various risks to investors

Much of that could be accelerated for the asset issuers via pre-prepared documents or a "registration wizard".

Short term though, I suspect my exchange is going to be a virtual stock exchange trading in virtual currency and virtual securities.  It will join the ranks of 100's of other sites out there that let you play stock trading simulations to study and learn about the financial industry's terms and trading process.

edit: made it easier to read.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
Thanks for the Great info, I'll use it if I ever have to defend myself.  Cry
legendary
Activity: 2940
Merit: 1090
Heh this is basically the same argument the Galactic Nexus Uberplan (GNU) folk favour when deploying Martian BotCoin and similar cryptocurrencies (including the Hacker nation's national currency, Bitcoin, from which the Martians derived the technology) on backwards worlds such as the planet known as Earth during such planets' pre-Milieu transition period.

-MarkM-
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