The root of the problem! | Bitcointalksearch.org

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Sjalq on July 08, 2011, 07:30:24 AM

Guys my original point was that debt based fiat currency that has to continually increase and is monopolized by a small elite via government enforcement is what is causing all the problems.

If you add to that causes: "current society values" i totally agree!

Quote from: Sjalq on July 08, 2011, 07:30:24 AM

Satoshi probably never seriously thought things would reach this level and I agree he may have been experimenting but he did want to create something without the current currencies properties.

I don't have the smallest clue about the intentions of Satoshi.
Till now all i can say is that he brilliantly mixed 3 widely known (and even old from the IT point of view) technologies to solve the "centralized third-party authority" problem.
But I hope for the best! Grin

Ciao.

Sjalq

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Guys my original point was that debt based fiat currency that has to continually increase and is monopolized by a small elite via government enforcement is what is causing all the problems. Satoshi probably never seriously thought things would reach this level and I agree he may have been experimenting but he did want to create something without the current currencies properties.

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on July 08, 2011, 07:08:49 AM

Okay, no such thing as bad money huh?

I've got some Zimbabwe dollars I'd like to sell you ... in ten years time that will be USD.

You can split hairs and do semantics all you like but at the inevitable point is that the broken/outdated technology (monetary information technology) has been revealed as such.

$200 billion in naked short treasury settlement failures for example.

I have a better idea ... go make same goods/services exchange with BitCoins in Zimbabwe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe_Electricity_Supply_Authority)
Ciao.

marcus_of_augustus

legendary

Activity: 3920

Merit: 2349

Eadem mutata resurgo

Okay, no such thing as bad money huh?

I've got some Zimbabwe dollars I'd like to sell you ... in ten years time that will be USD.

You can split hairs and do semantics all you like but at the inevitable point is that the broken/outdated technology (monetary information technology) has been revealed as such.

$200 billion in naked short treasury settlement failures for example.

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on July 08, 2011, 05:04:35 AM

and you've completely and utterly missed the point (or twisted it your way, whichever)

not all monies are equal. It is a technological tool, some technologies are better than others, regardless of the men managing them.

Bitcoin is a modern fighter jet, the Fed. Res. US dollar is sopwith camel biplane era technology (1913).

Now we can start to talk about who missed/twisted the point ... but that is out of my intention on this forum.
I'll try to be as clear as I can can:

Money = A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market.
Market = A public gathering held for buying and selling merchandise.

From the definition Money can't be bad ... they can only be GOOD ... it makes the exchange easy (and in some cases possible).
There is a particular case when something goes wrong ... in a Market FOR Money in that cases the definitions become:

Money = A medium that can be exchanged for Money and is used as a measure of his value on the market.
Market = A public gathering held for buying and selling Money.

But that doesn't mean the the Money are BAD ...
Money can take various forms (silver coins, gold coins, copper coins, paper, digital ... etc)
Obviously there are forms that are more adapt for transaction in a specific environment:

I can't buy/sell goods/services with digital money in a place where electricity is not present (you will be surprised how many places in this world are where electricity is not available for daily private use;
I can't buy a naval ship with silver coins for obvious reasons;
It will be hard (foolish) to buy Storage space on an online server using paper money (like putting them in an envelope and sending them with Fedex)
etc.

But, again, money are not a bad thing ... it's the form that I chosen is inappropriate for a specific context.

Of course, every day, new technologies are born and new contexts for transactions are created and that will lead to new forms of money ...

Ciao.

marcus_of_augustus

legendary

Activity: 3920

Merit: 2349

Eadem mutata resurgo

and you've completely and utterly missed the point (or twisted it your way, whichever)

not all monies are equal. It is a technological tool, some technologies are better than others, regardless of the men managing them.

Bitcoin is a modern fighter jet, the Fed. Res. US dollar is sopwith camel biplane era technology (1913).

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on July 08, 2011, 03:56:31 AM

But don't bring a knife to a gun fight .... and then praise the knife for being expertly crafted .... but inevitably not up to the job.

There is such a thing as bad money, good money, better money and best money and it is a technological continuum.

Cowrie shells and tally sticks are obviously past their use by date. Centrally issued fiat paper notes and their electronic ledgers representations are smelling pretty bad right about now too.

Again you are mislead by the words used ...
There is not such a thing that knife vs gun fight (they don't fight eachother). There is a man vs man fight ... one brings a gun the other brings a knife.
I think what you try to say is:
Bad USE of money, good USE of money, better USE of money etc ...
Inserting the word USE change our focus ... from the object used to the who use them and that is the road to fallow to solve the "fight problem".

Sorry that i insisted on the matter but this kind of misleading its too often used by our "chosen" politicians to fool us and i always try to make people to pay attention to this kind of misleading so they can protect themselves.

Ciao.

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Sjalq on July 08, 2011, 03:45:42 AM

So you think he built this as his cool little side project, all the things about a limited money supply, safeguards against both govt control and malicious hacking were just nice to haves and that he did not have a fundamental problem with the current system?

Let me make it clear:
Bitcoin is a "proof of concept" project!
The "concept" is a solution to the problem "How to send something to someone without the need of a centralized third-party to guarantee the transaction?"
Now you can (as very often happens) to use this solution to make different thing, because not only the currencies have this problem. For example another project born with the same solution is namecoin (just search the net for it).
Now pretending that Bitcoin is a solution to the actual socio-economic-political shit in which we live ... its FAR TOO SIMPLISTIC...

Trust me ... i'm not a anti-Bitcoin moron ... i just trying to say that the Bitcoin's core is truly important and not the Bitcoin itself and that the problems of our world can not be solved by it.

Ciao.

marcus_of_augustus

legendary

Activity: 3920

Merit: 2349

Eadem mutata resurgo

Quote from: TheMalon on July 08, 2011, 03:23:57 AM

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on July 08, 2011, 02:44:05 AM

... bad money is the root of the problem!

Let's get rid if it.

There is no such a thing as "bad money" ... you can't say "bad stone" because someone smashed your head with it!
Currencies are essential because they facilitate the interchange of goods/services.

Ciao.

Fine point.

But don't bring a knife to a gun fight .... and then praise the knife for being expertly crafted .... but inevitably not up to the job.

There is such a thing as bad money, good money, better money and best money and it is a technological continuum.

Cowrie shells and tally sticks are obviously past their use by date. Centrally issued fiat paper notes and their electronic ledgers representations are smelling pretty bad right about now too.

Sjalq

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: TheMalon on July 08, 2011, 03:41:26 AM

Quote from: Sjalq on July 08, 2011, 03:36:28 AM

"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
-Satoshi's quote in the genesis block

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.
Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own.
It's very attractive to the libertarian viewpoint if we can explain it properly. I'm better with code than with words though."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

It seems to be a phrase from larger text. Extracting some sentences from their context let you interpret them as you like.
Could you, please, copy/paste the entire text.

Ciao.

So you think he built this as his cool little side project, all the things about a limited money supply, safeguards against both govt control and malicious hacking were just nice to haves and that he did not have a fundamental problem with the current system?

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Sjalq on July 08, 2011, 03:36:28 AM

"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
-Satoshi's quote in the genesis block

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.
Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own.
It's very attractive to the libertarian viewpoint if we can explain it properly. I'm better with code than with words though."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

It seems to be a phrase from larger text. Extracting some sentences from their context let you interpret them as you like.
Could you, please, copy/paste the entire text.

Ciao.

Sjalq

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

"The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"
-Satoshi's quote in the genesis block

"Yes, [we will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography,] but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.
Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks like Napster, but pure P2P networks like Gnutella and Tor seem to be holding their own.
It's very attractive to the libertarian viewpoint if we can explain it properly. I'm better with code than with words though."
-Satoshi Nakamoto

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on July 08, 2011, 03:28:37 AM

poorly managed currency...

Amen!

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on July 08, 2011, 03:23:50 AM

Actually, the easiest interpretation is encoded into the genesis block .... just one sentence.

Do you mean this sentence:

Quote

The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks

If you do ... this is an ironical text that Satoshi choosed to calculate the first hash ... but as he said ... any random text will be good.

But lets talk about this sentence. It doesn't say anything about the fact the $ is BAD ... but that some people are bad (is not the $ that decided to bailout some banks)

Ciao.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: TheMalon on July 08, 2011, 03:23:57 AM

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on July 08, 2011, 02:44:05 AM

... bad money is the root of the problem!

Let's get rid if it.

There is no such a thing as "bad money" ... you can't say "bad stone" because someone smashed your head with it!
Currencies are essential because they facilitate the interchange of goods/services.

Ciao.

'Bad money' in the sense of a poorly managed currency... not as in all money is evil.

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: marcus_of_augustus on July 08, 2011, 02:44:05 AM

... bad money is the root of the problem!

Let's get rid if it.

There is no such a thing as "bad money" ... you can't say "bad stone" because someone smashed your head with it!
Currencies are essential because they facilitate the interchange of goods/services.

Ciao.

marcus_of_augustus

legendary

Activity: 3920

Merit: 2349

Eadem mutata resurgo

Actually, the easiest interpretation is encoded into the genesis block .... just one sentence.

TheMalon

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Sjalq on July 07, 2011, 04:07:44 PM

Folks,

The root cause problem with today's economy is that money can be created out of nothing and used to buy up real world goods and services and that this right is legally centred (monopolized) with only a few people. Everything else; high frequency trades, resource miss-allocation, decreasing real wages, inflation, deflationary collapse, oil prices, expensive wars (most of the modern ones) etc. etc. etc. is just symptomatic. If this right was taken away from the banking-government elite I dare say most of the shenanigans would stop within a year. Of course a soft landing would be hard to guarantee.

Why do you think Satoshi created bitcoin?

The answer to your question is in the Bitcoin white-paper written by Satoshi:

Quote

Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main
benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending.
We propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer network.

So, the Bitcoin is not born as a solution to the "today's economy" but a solution to the "double-spending problem" when you don't use third party entities!
Don't let you fooled by easy interpretations ...
Both Bitcoin and $ are created from "thin air" the difference is Bitcoin has a built-in rate of generation (50BTC /600 sec) and a maximum but the $ don't.

Ciao.

marcus_of_augustus

legendary

Activity: 3920

Merit: 2349

Eadem mutata resurgo

+1 to the OP

... bad money is the root of the problem!

Let's get rid if it.

FreeMoney

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1016

Strength in numbers

+1 more to the OP

Quote from: bitcon on July 07, 2011, 08:29:03 PM

agree 100% with OP. +1. BUT... prove to a non techie that bitcoin cannot be counterfeited. The bitcoin system requires faith also. For all granny knows, some hacker is out there in cyberspace creating bitcoins on his palm pilot.

Come on. Is that granny's requirement for using paper money? Proof that no one is making more by magic? Granny doesn't have your suggested paranoid fantasy she'll use what you tell her is safe. The people who care if Bitcoin can be counterfeited are the people who know who to find out if that's actually possible everyone else always uses their trusted advisers.

Topic: The root of the problem! (Read 3600 times)