The SEC Shows Why Bitcoin is Doomed. - page 2.

BCB

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BCJ

Quote from: Fundmanager23 on January 02, 2014, 08:55:48 AM

It don't think the SEC cares much about bitcoin. It has too many other things to worry about unless someone tries to sell bitcoin stocks or bitcoin securities without proper registration. There are other branches of govt that might be more interested. Again it is US only and they have't stopped online gaming.

+1

Most US Law enforcement and Regulatory Agencies are already on the record as saying they are only concerned with virtual currency to the extent is is used for illegal or fraudulent activities.

This includes
The Fed
US Secret Service
Department of Justice (FBI, DEA, ATF)
Department of Treasury
Security and Exchange Commission

e521

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Quote from: johnyj on January 02, 2014, 08:54:53 AM

Bitcoin's value is backed by all the infrastructure investments in mining operations, you can copy the source code, but you can never copy the hardware infrastructure

Since the essential of bitcoin is a consensus that people around the world using one currency with fixed limited money supply, any addition of other cryptocurrencies will just inflate the money supply and make that experiment more and more close to fiat money, which is not interesting. Majority of people will come back to bitcoin when they finally realize this

Litecoin could work as a backup in case the bitcoin failed, but since bitcoin is not unchangeable, when an extinction level event occur, miners around the world will agree to switch to a new protocol, so it is almost immortal

I disagree with you and I think you actually contradicted yourself.
We will never ever see Bitcoin changing from SHA256 to scrypt.
ASICs are the real value behind Bitcoin right?

Fundmanager23

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It don't think the SEC cares much about bitcoin. It has too many other things to worry about unless someone tries to sell bitcoin stocks or bitcoin securities without proper registration. There are other branches of govt that might be more interested. Again it is US only and they have't stopped online gaming.

johnyj

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Beyond Imagination

Bitcoin's value is backed by all the infrastructure investments in mining operations, you can copy the source code, but you can never copy the hardware infrastructure

Since the essential of bitcoin is a consensus that people around the world using one currency with fixed limited money supply, any addition of other cryptocurrencies will just inflate the money supply and make that experiment more and more close to fiat money, which is not interesting. Majority of people will come back to bitcoin when they finally realize this

Litecoin could work as a backup in case the bitcoin failed, but since bitcoin is not unchangeable, when an extinction level event occur, miners around the world will agree to switch to a new protocol, so it is almost immortal

Mowcore

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Quote from: Anddos on January 02, 2014, 05:23:12 AM

Its doomed because there is going to be to many asic on the bitcoin network (Hence the difficulty going sky high) hence people turning off the miners, hence no transactions processed,asics have basically killed bitcoin

I don't have an asic but that doesn't mean I can agree with what you said. We need asic's for bitcoin to make the network stronger, to protect it against the theorized attacks which I am sure you have read countless times. The only thing that might suck for you is the fact you can't mine with gpu's anymore. Yeah, I hated that too. I still mine alt coins (as much as I hate it) to get my BTC fix and with these impending "scrypt asics" that may one day actually appear, I feel the same thing could happen, though the Litecoin network will sure benefit in the same way as bitcoin has.

Imagine a bitcoin world without asics, I really could not see the price of the coin being what it is now!

Anddos

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Its doomed because there is going to be to many asic on the bitcoin network (Hence the difficulty going sky high) hence people turning off the miners, hence no transactions processed,asics have basically killed bitcoin

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 02, 2014, 04:36:13 AM

Quote from: Coin_Master on January 02, 2014, 03:05:30 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 01, 2014, 03:20:44 PM

I just read this Timothy Lavin Bloomberg story and wondered if it's been discussed yet. I can't seem to find anything on it. If it has please direct me to the thread. The comments at the bottom are as interesting as the article. He raises some interesting points considering all the recent action from government agencies lately (like Mike Caldwell's recent letter forcing him to close up shop). Will governments simply regulate Bitcoin to death like so many good ideas of the past? Will business competition cease to make Bitcoin a worthwhile alternative? Is this just another naysayer that is missing the "point" of Bitcoin? Is the "point" to provide an outlet for crime or does Bitcoin have a place alongside other payment systems and is simply waiting to claim its market share?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-08/did-the-sec-just-validate-bitcoin-no-.html

Far too often I see the 'government' referred to as this 'thing that wants to stop people from conducting private legal activities'. Please remember the 'government' are people, elected representatives of the people (at least in democratic countries, sorry to all those that don't get a say in who they would prefer to represent them). If the people choose to allow Bitcoin, the 'government/elected representatives' will do exactly what they are paid to do, as employees of the state, if they don't they get fired/not re-elected. Bitcoin will continue to be a success, as it already is (by the people, for the people).

Were you the one that voted for the 21 kiloton atomic bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki? I'm against genocide for the greater good so I voted against it. Oh, I voted against Vietnam too, twice.

Don't assume governments will do what the citizens want and don't assume that you are in the voting majority.

Or that the majority is the most evil (deserving capital punishment/life without parole) segment of the electorate, because the worst possible evil always seems to "win" where it counts, regardless of "party".

QuestionAuthority

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You lead and I'll watch you walk away.

Quote from: Coin_Master on January 02, 2014, 03:05:30 AM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 01, 2014, 03:20:44 PM

I just read this Timothy Lavin Bloomberg story and wondered if it's been discussed yet. I can't seem to find anything on it. If it has please direct me to the thread. The comments at the bottom are as interesting as the article. He raises some interesting points considering all the recent action from government agencies lately (like Mike Caldwell's recent letter forcing him to close up shop). Will governments simply regulate Bitcoin to death like so many good ideas of the past? Will business competition cease to make Bitcoin a worthwhile alternative? Is this just another naysayer that is missing the "point" of Bitcoin? Is the "point" to provide an outlet for crime or does Bitcoin have a place alongside other payment systems and is simply waiting to claim its market share?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-08/did-the-sec-just-validate-bitcoin-no-.html

Far too often I see the 'government' referred to as this 'thing that wants to stop people from conducting private legal activities'. Please remember the 'government' are people, elected representatives of the people (at least in democratic countries, sorry to all those that don't get a say in who they would prefer to represent them). If the people choose to allow Bitcoin, the 'government/elected representatives' will do exactly what they are paid to do, as employees of the state, if they don't they get fired/not re-elected. Bitcoin will continue to be a success, as it already is (by the people, for the people).

Were you the one that voted for the 21 kiloton atomic bomb that was dropped on Nagasaki? I'm against genocide for the greater good so I voted against it. Oh, I voted against Vietnam too, twice.

Don't assume governments will do what the citizens want and don't assume that you are in the voting majority.

Coin_Master

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 01, 2014, 03:20:44 PM

I just read this Timothy Lavin Bloomberg story and wondered if it's been discussed yet. I can't seem to find anything on it. If it has please direct me to the thread. The comments at the bottom are as interesting as the article. He raises some interesting points considering all the recent action from government agencies lately (like Mike Caldwell's recent letter forcing him to close up shop). Will governments simply regulate Bitcoin to death like so many good ideas of the past? Will business competition cease to make Bitcoin a worthwhile alternative? Is this just another naysayer that is missing the "point" of Bitcoin? Is the "point" to provide an outlet for crime or does Bitcoin have a place alongside other payment systems and is simply waiting to claim its market share?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-08/did-the-sec-just-validate-bitcoin-no-.html

Far too often I see the 'government' referred to as this 'thing that wants to stop people from conducting private legal activities'. Please remember the 'government' are people, elected representatives of the people (at least in democratic countries, sorry to all those that don't get a say in who they would prefer to represent them). If the people choose to allow Bitcoin, the 'government/elected representatives' will do exactly what they are paid to do, as employees of the state, if they don't they get fired/not re-elected. Bitcoin will continue to be a success, as it already is (by the people, for the people).

Nagle

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Quote from: bovcan on January 01, 2014, 10:18:08 PM

Yes exactly...China and India have already both come down hard on BTC. Those are the two most populous countries on the earth and something like 2.8 billion people. So next is #3 to come down hard on it and that is the USA.

China and India have exchange controls. The US doesn't. If you want to do a wire transfer of a few thousand, or a few million if you've got it, out of the US, the US doesn't care. It gets reported to FinCen, but they won't stop you. Nobody reports any problems wire transferring money to Mt. Gox. (The fact that all of Mt. Gox's "banking troubles" are on the outbound side is a strong indication that they're crooked or broke.)

Bitcoin's problems come mostly from the slimeballs associated with Bitcoin businesses. Over half of the Bitcoin exchanges have gone bust, most of the "online wallet" businesses went bust, and they usually kept the customers' money. Anonymous remote irrevocable money transfer is the con man's dream.

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

Quote from: Nagle on January 02, 2014, 12:13:47 AM

Quote from: TheButterZone on January 01, 2014, 07:23:51 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 01, 2014, 05:56:48 PM

We need someone to sell a pound of bread flour for btc and have the flour mill pay it's workers in btc.

http://www.bitcoinclassifieds.net/ad/5233_Bobs_Red_Mill_bread_mix_220oz_bags/

Bread mix at $12 ~~a loaf~~ for a pair of loaves of healthy bread. Right.

Also, it's a dead offer. "Buy this before midnight tonight [i.e. midnight on whatever day you're going to make the call, instead of claiming you can't make it 'til the next day or the weekend, then pretending to be comatose, jailed, or deceased, like hundreds I've had experience with]", 272 days ago.

ftfy

Nagle

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Quote from: TheButterZone on January 01, 2014, 07:23:51 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 01, 2014, 05:56:48 PM

We need someone to sell a pound of bread flour for btc and have the flour mill pay it's workers in btc.

http://www.bitcoinclassifieds.net/ad/5233_Bobs_Red_Mill_bread_mix_220oz_bags/

Bread mix at $12 a loaf. Right.

That's the problem with pricing in Bitcoin. Everything has to be way overpriced in case of a big price change.

Also, it's a dead offer. "Buy this before midnight tonight", 27 days ago.

bovcan

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Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 01, 2014, 08:23:27 PM

That concept "the rest of the world will save us" really doesn't seem to be working anymore. I think it's not working because most of the worlds governments/regulatory systems are as dysfunctional as the US system.

Yes exactly...China and India have already both come down hard on BTC. Those are the two most populous countries on the earth and something like 2.8 billion people. So next is #3 to come down hard on it and that is the USA.

And no it won't "kill" bitcoin as we all know you can't really kill the protocol but it will kill the chance for many more hundreds of millions of people to use it to make their lives better. And it will also hurt the value/price of BTC of course.

BCB

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BCJ

And speaking of coinbase

This is very interesting...

http://youtu.be/jkMhOchu9G8#t=1h30m12s

That is Fred Ehrsam, Co-Founder at Coinbase speaking...

BCB

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BCJ

This guy is a little nutty but if you have an hour he has some interesting point.

WRITTEN STATEMENT OF
AARON J. GREENSPAN
CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, THINK COMPUTER CORPORATION
BEFORE THE
U.S. SENATE COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS
NOVEMBER 18, 2013

http://www.aarongreenspan.com/writing/20131118.hsgacstatement.pdf

TheButterZone

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Quote from: BCB on January 01, 2014, 09:26:58 PM

Regarding operating with out a license: that may be exactly what Coinbase.com is doing. They don't seem to have a state money transmitter license, yet they have not been shut down. They would not receive a $25M investment unless the investors are pretty certain what they are doing it legal.

Talk about "Libertarian kooks"! This is anarchy! How will the roads be built if Coinbase doesn't blast tens of millions of dollars into the government's black hole!?

BCB

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BCJ

DeathAndTaxes, I've checked EVERY state. State licensing is NOT public information in every state.

Regarding operating with out a license: that may be exactly what Coinbase.com is doing. They don't seem to have a state money transmitter license, yet they have not been shut down. They would not receive a $25M investment unless the investors are pretty certain what they are doing it legal.

It's all a mystery to me.

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

Quote from: BCB on January 01, 2014, 08:08:11 PM

Here is what we will see in 2014. Companies like circle.com with $9M invested, Coinbase.com with $25M invested and any of the other companies that receive significant investment moving quickly to spend a lot of that money to become licensed in all the US State.

That is possible but they are going to stop all business and wait 6-9 months? For a license they may or may not need?
By definition apply for a license (a defacto admission that unlicensed activity is unlawful) while engaging in unlicensed activity is not smart. I can't see any state granting a license to an entity which is operating without a license while seeking said license. The time required to obtain a license is an obstacle.

Quote

And another issue with NO federal regulator is the there is ABSOLUTELY no list of all the money transmitters in every state that requires licensing so there is really no way to tell.

Not sure what you mean by this. There is no unified list but pretty much all states make licensure a public record and most (all? I want to say all but there may be one or two exceptions) make these records available online. If xyz claims to be a licensed money transmitter, license #12345679 it is pretty hard to verify if there is no way to verify.

Examples:
CA money transmitters: http://www.dbo.ca.gov/Licensees/money_transmitters/money_transmitters_directory.asp
VA money transmitters: http://www.scc.virginia.gov/bfi/reg_inst/trans.pdf
NY money transmitters: http://www.dfs.ny.gov/about/whowesupervise/simoneyt.htm

Pretty much just google "[name of state] money transmitter" and you can find a list within a link or two.

BCB

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BCJ

Quote from: BCB on January 01, 2014, 07:46:35 PM

EDIT: Bitpay does perform extensive Know Your Customer(KYC) vetting on it's merchants to prevent being caught up in any fraudulent or illicit activity. This is a MUST for any legitimate virtual currency business. See e-gold ltd.

QuestionAuthority

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Quote from: BCB on January 01, 2014, 08:10:25 PM

Quote from: Peter R on January 01, 2014, 08:07:04 PM

Quote from: QuestionAuthority on January 01, 2014, 07:54:27 PM

Quote from: BCB on January 01, 2014, 07:46:35 PM

It is my understanding that bitpay is a "third party payment processor" which is EXEMPT from "money transmitter licensing"

Essentially Bitpay has a contract with their clients, the merchant and when a consumer sends bitcoin to bitpay and bitcoin converts that to cash and sends it to the merchant, the consumer is "legally" sending "other value that substitutes for currency" directly to the merchant. There for bitpay is not a "money transmitter."

But is it not possible for a drug dealer to sell drugs for btc then buy a couple of lamborghinis at a dealership for btc and sell them for dollars. In that scenario isn't BitPay enabling money laundering?

That's a good question. I'm certainly no legal expert, but my take is that it is no different than that same drug-dealer buying his Lamborghini in cash. In Canada (where I'm from) a drug-dealer could do this, but the car-dealership would need to report the transaction to FINTRAC (our version FinCEN). So regardless of whether the drug dealer purchases the car in cash or in bitcoin, the dealership knows who the buyer is and reports the transaction. BitPay is just facilitating the transaction between buyer and seller; they are outside the scope of any reporting requirements.

What you are discussing is called "Trade Based Money Laundering" and it is a bit problem. Auto dealer are required to file currency transaction report (CTR's) with FinCEN for the reason.

EDIT: http://www.ice.gov/cornerstone/money-laundering.htm

How does BitPay convert their Bitcoins to cash? Surly they must use an exchange and then need to do record keeping on the businesses they deal with. So, they must have some AML/KYC reporting requirement, no?

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