Topic: The simple and undeniable reason why all cryptocurrencies will collapse (Read 477 times)

most cryptos may collapse within two years, but there are some good and strong projects will survive, they will rule the blockchain world like MS and Google did, it is frustrating hence the market is so bad, but hope is pregnant with it

And yet you still aren't warning the public about cash being legally unenforceable in many scenarios?  People all over the world could be buying stuff from markets, garage sales, street vendors, bazaars, carnivals, festivals or boot fairs using cash right now, with no legal recourse if the goods they bought turn out to be faulty or counterfeit.  Surely someone should warn them about the complete lack of legal path to restore their ownership rights of tangible goods.  It's a total fraud.  I guess they'll just have to rely on some good old fashioned personal responsibility and common sense like those of us here in cryptoland do.  

AGAIN, I would like to warn people that bitcoin and cryptos are not legitimate trading instruments, that they are bound to collapse, and that it is not a smart idea to buy them. I modified my article to more clearly explain why this is the case: https://cryptofraud.wordpress.com/

Sure, let's take the recent example where some people bought a total of 50 luxury flats from a couple in exchange for bitcoins.  Physical, tangible assets traded for some entries in the ledger.  By your logic, the couple who sold those dwellings can accept the bitcoin and then simply not give them the flats they paid for, because it's not legally enforceable, right?  Except you're wrong, because your arguments clearly fall apart the moment they're exposed to the slightest dose of reality.  Those deals are finalised.  It all looks pretty enforceable to me.  

With Bitcoin you can always choose to involve legal enforcement and contractual obligations if you desire.  You have that option.  If you want to pay some suit to draft a contract every time you transact with Bitcoin to make sure the other person doesn't try to rip you off, have fun paying for that.  It's entirely your call.  Although, in any example where properties are concerned, obviously that will almost always involve legally binding documents like deeds or lease agreements that have to be signed.  But in no way does it mean that every single transaction requires a similar level of bureaucracy and administrative labour for it to work.  In other examples of real world purchases, people are paying for their VPNs with Lightning and someone paid their prepaid phone bill too.  And standard bitcoin transactions have been used for plenty of purchases over the years.  The vast majority of them, funnily enough, not requiring a law firm on retainer to make them happen.

Please, tell us all in your infinite wisdom how they're going to overturn and reclaim that first (now notorious) "Bitcoin Pizza" just because there wasn't a lawyer involved.  

Done deals are done.  They're not falling through or being disputed just because there isn't a notary, paralegal and judge on standby.  In fact, the number of transactions that are disputed, or where claims of scams or other fraudulent activity occur are likely in close proportion with the number of similar reports when using fiat cash.  Which makes perfect sense if Bitcoin is cash for the internet.  Any deal done as a face-to-face exchange with fiat cash where there's no receipt for the goods in question is equally as legally unenforceable as Bitcoin.  

Are you also warning people about the dangers doing fiat cash interactions without receipts too?  One might be tempted to call it hypocrisy if you aren't.  

But fine.  You stick with your precious nanny state who will happily take ever-increasing proportions of your wealth in exchange for pacifying you, mollycoddling your delicate, pampered ass and making you feel "safe".  If you want to spend money out of your pocket to make that compromise, feel free.  Everyone here has that choice, to keep some or even most of their total net worth within the traditional sovereign kleptocracy if they so wish.  How much you want to risk your exposure to that is entirely up to you.  But when the state does eventually screw you, and they will, don't say we didn't warn you.  It's their system, you're merely the fuel they burn to keep it running.

I'm not sure about this vintage distortion of reality you are clinging too

legally binding , courts of law with regard payment and receiving goods/services??  that's all useful but I'm sure most would like to see less need for such things anyway.

We are trying to build a decentralised trustless end to end arena here.


Those mechanisms you mention will soon be obsolete or greatly reduced in their role.

Double Deposit Escrow and a trustless end to end (for real currency) will obliterate the squabbling and need for middle men or centralised authorities sorting out your personal shit. The entire point is that there is not need at any point for trust so you should not be in a position not to receive your goods or services for your magic internets money.

Before we reach that stage I am not even sure why you would assume if amazon offered btc as payment and you bought an item there and paid in BTC you would have no legal right to ensure you received goods or services.

Perhaps I am not grasping your  point or else your point is soon to be pointless.

If BTC can serve as a better alternative to "money" in that i use it and get what I want.. then why even clutter the board with this kind of nonsense.

Again, numerical values are NOT money, they are abstract mathematical objects. Money is either commodity or legally binding instrument that provides its holder with legal path to goods or services. If you give an iPhone to someone as a gift and then you mark this gift by writing a number into the computer's memory, this number won't magically become money. It's still a number. If you send it to someone, or record it on blockchain it is still... a number. Creating, transferring and storing numbers has nothing to do with money. Money is not based on faith but on legal obligations. Borrowers are legally obligated to use money for their loan payments. Legal obligation is not faith, but a duty that is enforced by a court of law. You are like a member of some crazy cult with this vehement denial of reality.

The monetary system as it functions today is based on faith, there's nothing backing the Dollar or Euro expect for your faith in a government. Governments can collapse you know? Your argument invalidated your argument. If you're going to say cryptocurrencies aren't currencies nevermind whether it is BTC or altcoins atleast understand the monetary system before you start arguing against them. You think that just because something is tangible it has value? Well why don't I start paying you with toilet paper instead of Fiat currency? Fiat has the intrinsic value of near nothing and is soley based in the assumption or belief that I can get something of value with my worthless papers, alteast with toiletpaper you can wipe your butt and it doesn't sting. Golds value is entirely determined by faith, and if you want to argue that gold is used for electronics and jewelry then I refute your argument by saying the value that is given to gold in that regards is only a few percent and doesn't account for the rest.

Face it, everything is based on belief. If you're going to shit on crypto atleast do it right and give some good arguments. So what is money? It is a tool to communicate value. What does it represent? Well it doesn't actually represent value or we wouldn't use valueless papers. Money represents its author and its culture. The only fraud that is being commited is by the centralized banks that print money as they please and loan money to charge interest for money that doesn't exist.

Gold is faith based, but it's like comparing the Roman Catholic Church (gold Heraeus bars) to the Church of the Province of West Africa (btc).    They are technically both faith based, but one is much more firmly established.

but how will i sending immediately over the internets tangible value for my goods i wanted to order from other side the world??

this is internets money pal

we are all living in a simulation apparently where tangible is merely a matter of perspective

get with the times

If we all asked for the tangible value of our current fiat at once you  would find that little would be delivered to each of us.

It is no longer backed by gold and is just a faith based system too.

You could argue that golds value is faith based.

The only real things you need are food, water, shelter, and pussy. Trading in anything else is a leap of faith of eventually trading back into those things at an advantage.

Dot-com was one of the best things that happened to me in this life, and the investment capital from those times are still sitting safely in my various accounts.   If I can make as much in crypto as I did during the late 90's tech boom, I will be very very happy.   

Cryptography is not an enforceable instance, it is a technique for secure transmission of information. Enforceability in the context of money means that someone if legally forced to provide you with tangible goods on the bases of monetary instrument you own (borrowers in the case of fiat money). When you own crypto numbers nobody is legally forced to provide you something tangible for this numbers, which means that crypto numbers are completely useless and giving away your land, food, car, house or other tangible goods just to have this numbers is worse than the Tulip Craze in the Netherlands where people sold houses for tulips. You are literally throwing away your tangible property just because you believe that others will do the same thing. If that's not crazy than I don't know what is.

Regarding fiat money and legal system, calling them a Ponzi scheme and negative because few corrupt governments misused them, is as nonsensical as saying that Ferrari is a useless car because someone crashed it, and that protecting our life, freedom and property is evil because we used coercion in the protection.

What different is with Fiat money? it also is faith-based if there was a point that people started to fear the weakness of any Fiat in according to scale, it will collapse. You would try to say that it is backed by gold, but no. It has been long time since currencies was backed by gold. Even the gold which allegedly is there to back up some fraction of FIAT most likely is gone and not to mention fractional loans which is absolutely crazy and is another good point that there is little support to FIAT rather than faith and words of politicans. You would say no way Fiat is to strong but there is some good amount of speculations and arguments why wars in middle east broke out exactly because of the reason that one of the biggest FIAt currencies was threatened.

The potential for the whole crypto currency and block chain technology is huge. It barely scratches the surface now.
 I believe in crypto currencies in the long run, as they solve many issues other technologies cannot by removing third parties.

So don’t think of them as just coins, because new currencies since Ethereum are more than just coins, they build apps and project that may have real world impact outside of their financial value or replacing regular currencies.

There are project like Steem that give construct versions of youtube, projects like Akasha that make social networks on the Block Chain, and hundreds of many others. Some will fail, others will not.

It is fiat currencies that are for most part faith based and forced onto us by the threat of violence. It is fiat currencies that have collapsed time and time again when the fiat Ponzi scheme runs out of steam. Normally as a result of reckless expansionary monetary policy backed by nothing more than empty promises. This is normally when the governments and banksters take nations to war in order to rinse and repeat the same old Ponzi scheme. The issuing and control of fiat currencies are centralized. This gives the issuers immense power and undue influence over the lives of people.

It is different with cryptos and with cryptos I mean digital tokens that for one enable peer-to-peer trustless (bankless) transactions within peer-to-peer economies driven by decentralized blockchains. And I am not in reference to cryptos that are used in Ponzi schemes such as Bitconnect or that are issued and controlled by governments and banksters.

Many cryptos are used as currencies, but the vast majority are utility tokens that unlock access to specialized software and the features it offer. Even those that are exclusively used as currencies have utility value in the sense that it enable peer-to-peer trustless transactions across the globe.

Very little to no faith is required for cryptos to work. E.g. smart contracts ensure that contracting parties don't need to trust each other in order for contracts to be enforced. The technology ensures that each party has to stick to his/her end of the deal. If not, penalties agreed on when the contract was signed, are automatically enforced without a third party having to step in and enforce it.

Now of course if someone has zero faith in the technology, then he/she will most likely not want to get involved. However, this doesn't take away from the fact that the technology works and is available. It is after all a tool that one chooses to use or not to use. Unlike with fiat currency, freedom loving people involved with cryptos are not going to force anyone to use it, especially not by threat of violence.

In all fairness, the use of cryptos in peer-to-peer economies can be seriously hampered if governments use violence or misinformation to persuade enough people not to participate (or if a calamity outside of our control strikes).

Intrinsic value is a misnomer. Anything has just as much value as someone or something is prepared to give to it. E.g. a dung beatle most likely attaches more value to a piece of dung than most humans. This while most internet users will most likely attach a higher value to the hardware and software that enable the sending of emails than dung. It is no different when it comes to cryptos. Even fiat currency has value beyond its face value. E.g. fiat currency in the form of notes can be used to fuel a fire, as wallpaper, etc.

I see you use gold and silver certificates and fiat money as examples of something that provide a legal entitlement (right) "to tangible goods or foreclosed property of borrowers." This "legal entitlement" that you're talking about can easily be diminished and outright destroyed. E.g. history has shown that they always issue more gold and silver certificates than the physical gold and silver to back it. This while they always destroy fiat currencies, which are nothing short of debt instruments, via reckless expansionary monetary policy. This represents an indirect tax and theft for that matter. This while with cryptos - technology and consensus - assure that only x-amount of a certain token can exist - its value cannot be diminished via the reckless expansionary monetary policy of a centralized authority. Yes, I can hard fork and create my own x token, but it will be worthless if there is no or little consensus to back it.

In addition, if you're hungry and I own a pumpkin, your fiat money doesn't give you the "legal entitlement" or right  to my pumpkin. And when it is up for sale, your fiat money doesn't give you the right to buy it at a certain price. If I feel the fiat money you offer have too little value, then I will ask a higher price and perhaps even to the point where the "legal entitlements" that you hold are worth next to nothing - because you need a wheelbarrow full to be able to buy my pumpkin. Even if government forces me to sell my pumpkin at a certain price, then the overall supply of pumpkins in the market will dry up pretty quickly - leading to bigger imbalances and to the point where the "legal entitlements" you think you own, become worthless. And when the government fails that gave you the "legal entitlement," who is going to ensure that you're entitled to anything?

On the other hand, cryptos can be exchanged for almost anything, including property, gold, silver, fiat currency and what have you. And if I don't want to accept cryptos for the pumpkin - only fiat currencies, then those with cryptos who want to buy my pumpkin can exchange their cryptos for fiat and pay me in fiat. Unlike the governments and banksters, most people who are into cryptos are not going to force anyone to accept cryptos as payment. People have the choice to participate at free will. There is no need for violence or coercion to force people to use cryptos. It will be senseless to use violence. And the success of cryptos will at the end of the day not be dependent on the successes and failures of governments and banksters.

Now of course governments and banksters are most likely going to issue their own centralized cryptos and most likely force people to use it. However, I am sure there will be enough decentralized cryptos and consensus available to make their threats of no or little effect in no time. Assuming the masses wake up and realize the power that decentralized cryptos afford us.  

If you say bitcoin is not a currency then you are wrong because from my understanding of the definition of bitcoin as a digital currency which can be use for online transactions, and a currency is any thing that has legal backing and is generally accepted so bitcoin is generally accepted by those who understand it and are able to use despite the fact that bitcoin does not have legal backing yet but is going to have in time to come. Bitcoin is still at it discovery stage.

The crypto is not a goal itself, but blockchain technology is, thats what we need to improve banking

Isn't that what I literally just said?  

You need all that extraneous crap to make your obsolete fiat system (or "representative money" as you insist on calling it) work.  We're clearly in agreement on that part.  I fully concede that your "money" wouldn't function without those things.  Plus, it isn't even money when more than 95% of it belongs to banks who never even really had it to begin with.  It's a facade.  What you have are some IOUs that someone puts a gun to your head in order to make you pretend they're worth something.  

We want to be the inherent negation of that.  That's the whole point.  It's precisely the reason we're all here.

Maybe let that sink in for a bit.  It seems to be the part you're struggling with.  Everything you say is necessary, we say is useless.



It can be cryptographically enforced.  Which is better.  The legal system is fallible.  Mistakes are often made.  When we trade physical assets for bitcoins and reciprocally bitcoins for physical assets, it's merely indicative of the fact that bitcoins do indeed have demonstrable value, because, again, we're fully self-incentivised without any reliance on authority, fully self-regulating without any reliance on laws and fully self-sustaining without any reliance on debt.  Not because someone has a gun to our heads to make us pretend bitcoins have value.  But because everyone reaps the benefits of not having the overheads and costs of all the completely wasted resources that go into maintaining "banks assets, evaluation of the credit risk, collateral, foreclosure," etc.  Because, as we've established, we simply don't need them and no one can stop us.

The permissionless carrot will always win over the authoritarian stick.  It's a simple deduction.

As you've already admitted, you know it's only force and coercion that keeps your "representative money" barely intact.  That's a pretty big weakness when alternatives like this become available.  How long do you think people are willing to submit to that coercion when their economies keep failing, banks keep wanting bailouts and everyone gets poorer by the day due to inflation?  It's no contest.  We've already won.  The rest of the world just hasn't realised it yet.  And it doesn't stop there.  Once we're done with money, next on the to-do list is democracy and governance itself.  Imagine when we replace elected representatives with a blockchain.  The truest sense of "representative" (seeing as you keep using that word, even though I'm pretty sure you haven't understood its meaning) governance this planet has ever seen.  That's going to be better in every conceivable way too.  

Everything you think you know about how this world works is about to be disrupted by what we're doing.

You can try to get in the way if you like, but you're pretty much a bug-splat on the windscreen at this point.

the price is not just based on faith..

there is actually a real underlying cost to make a bitcoin.. that is mining. the higher the difficulty gets the more expensive it is to make fresh coins
this is going to continue for many many years

there are many "resistance points" where certain people refuse to sell below a certain price because they will lose money otherwise.
miners have a resistance price as described above
'early adopters' have a price they prefer which is normally alot lower because they are already in profit from buying early
'recent adopters' are the newer people who bought from the early adopters who have a higher price because they paid more

mining costs can be calculated easily. right now its about ~$8100/btc for mining using a bunch of s9's with FREE electric

however
this can get complicated  if they are given too much in tx fee, their need to hold a certain resistant point based purely on the mining cost for a block reward becomes less strong.

they wont care about 12.5btc costing them ~$101k(~$8k/btc), instead they will start seeing 14btc(1.5btc from fees) costing them $101k. resulting in them valuing their resistant point for 1btc being less than $8k and instead $7.4k

EG
if a block of say 2000tx had a tx fee of 0.00625 each tx. to give a block total fees of 12.5
then the block yields 25btc total(12.5reward+12.5 fee) pools with a mining cost of ~$101k would divide by 25 which is ~$4k
per btc. and thus would happily sell their btc for down to $4k each, and still break even

right now from doing some maths.. mining has a resistance point of $7k-$8k based on cost of mining with the variance of the tx  fee added
early adopters can push the price down low and its hard to really know when, if, how much they will sell for

early adopters have a resistance point of $2k-$6k based on the last 6-12 month resistance points
and late adopters well some got in very late and wont sell unless the price is above $19k because they bought in at that price.

give it enough time and as trades happen you can see when resistance points get tested (patterns of where prices refuse to go any lower) and you start to get an idea of where the safe points are to base the 'true underlying cost value' lays

yea there will be times when the price spikes up high, which is meaningless empty speculative bubble / 'faith' crap.. but if you ignore the highs and only concentrate on the LOWS.. you start to see that bitcoin does actually have reasons why even with alot of pressure that the price refuses to go too low

A very good statement. But crypto cannot be a currency because crypto itself is a digital asset so the collapse stated in the article will not happen as long as the internet to access a crypto wallet still exists. People there assume that crypto is a digital currency but for me personally crypto is not currency but crypto is a digital asset as well as stock. The articles you share will not affect users of crypto to divert and even stop investing in crypto because investment in crypto form is more promising than other investments.

The only reason the representative money exists is because legal system exists. Without the latter you wouldn't have the ability to restore the ownership rights of tangible goods which are transferred from these goods to representative money(useless paper or digits) at the moment of exchange. No one in their right mind would give away their land, food, cars, houses and other tangible goods for a paper that cannot be legally enforced. That's why we have banks assets, evaluation of the credit risk, collateral, foreclosure, laws, legally binding contracts , legal coercion and courts behind representative money. The crypto world is inherent negation of that. In this virtual world people literally give away their land, food, cars, houses and other tangible goods for a paper in digital form that cannot be legally enforced. I am trying to warn people that this won't last and that crypto system is bound to collapse.