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Topic: The state of crypto - The only serious thread on the subforum - page 12. (Read 19479 times)

legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.

You mean the MPAs that are on bitdhares relying on pricefeeds derive their value in external entities outside the chain meaning the system by in large which uses it is useless if those external entities become useless or are regulated for use in the system?

But you do have UIAs which aren't based on feeds and ethereum ? There are no oracles in that one or price feeds gas is a market for fees how is that offchain? I don't see how either are relying on offchain for "most of their  value"

As far as I understood.. Fiat pegs are generally used to achieve network affect and thereafter if these cryptos become usable by avg joe then there is a push towards pegging to other cryptos instesd and perhaps by then there will be atomic transactions implemented anyway so only real thing you would peg to is gold or something a prediction market may need.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Wasn't there some talk some months back about smart mining integration into the client?

Yes that is still planned, probably in the next full release after the one that is coming up now.

Quote
Is there any site or application that is tracking the current number of monero nodes (full nodes) that are on the network?

This site (link below) tries to track them but has issues with part-time nodes, and the site itself seems to be down right now. The best estimate seems to be 50-100 full time, several hundred part-time but up regularly. I'm sure there are more that are very part time, brought online only when people want to transact or check balances.

Hopefully that number will increase significantly in the future with smart mining (it is intended to minimize its resource footprint to encourage, or at least not discourage, people to leave it running in the background like a Bittorrent client) and some other things that are in the works.

http://cucjrcntebdskoljhpxj4xc3bmietslv7nfg5uy7itgrbgppcb6q.b32.i2p.us
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
Botnets are not large mining facilities that can be shut down easily.

Indeed they are pretty much the opposite of something that is going to be successfully shut down or even regulated by the government any time in the foreseeable future. If anything that is a lot more like the pot grows mentioned in the OP, which to me seems like close to a best case for decentralized PoW mining. (I'm not sure whether that is better or worse than end users just running a mining client like Bittorrent, but it seems close.)

The pot example/analogy gave me a little chuckle.

But more seriously, I see the same as well. What would be the best case for decentralized PoW mining if the playing field as far as mining is concerned is more "level" or "fair" when comparing CPU vs GPU vs ASICs?

Wasn't there some talk some months back about smart mining integration into the client? That did interest me as it would give the end user the ability to mine XMR in the background with their unused CPU cycles at a much more fair rate than CPU vs GPU in many other coins.

It would be awesome if the decentralized structure of BTC or LTC would be constrained to that level playing field I mentioned earlier.

I was there when LTC had cpu mining. That was an interesting time as I got to get a glimpse first hand how it was to mine with CPUs as opposed to using my gigantic bitcoin mining rigs at the time.

Is there any site or application that is tracking the current number of monero nodes (full nodes) that are on the network?

legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
Someone linked this in an XMR thread, probably bullish for crypto in general as people try to avoid more inflationary government "coins":

http://yournewswire.com/denmark-becomes-first-country-to-ban-cash/

Situation for Monero looking kind of blah at the moment, but as everybody knows, someone like Rptiela can just double it's price at any time:

Halftime is kind of a milestone.
Soon we will see if Monero will get any meaningful valuation or not.
Soon there is no excuses such as "the emission is too high for any higher price". Emission is not going to be high anymore and if the market cap will not start rising during the coming 1 year, it probably will not rise ever. There will be no momentum and then the scenario which is going to happen most likely will happen and the coin start to decline little by little as the "long time holders" start to empty their plastic bags from coins.
There is not much time for excuses anymore. Until these days we have been able to argue that the emission is high - in my opinion it is not that high anymore and especially as there will be only 100 % more coins to be mined (again, excluded the tail emission),

In other news, Bitshares still rising with volume increasing way beyond Ethereum on Poloniex, and any second Kelsey will probably attempt to hand you a brochure for Litecoin for some unknown reason.


Perhaps the price is "blah". But it is important to remember the fundamentals of what is going on here.

I've been guilty of looking at the price of X-coin (any coin, take your pick) and purely judging based on that in the past.

What is very interesting to me are the technological, financial, social, legal, macro-economical, and possibly political implications that are at hand when you have digital currencies that are trailblazing and going into uncharted waters.

This time in history of crypto reminds me of the slow market during 2012.

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
Botnets are not large mining facilities that can be shut down easily.

Indeed they are pretty much the opposite of something that is going to be successfully shut down or even regulated by the government any time in the foreseeable future. If anything that is a lot more like the pot grows mentioned in the OP, which to me seems like close to a best case for decentralized PoW mining. (I'm not sure whether that is better or worse than end users just running a mining client like Bittorrent, but it seems close.)
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1491
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
...

C)  Still has large PoW mining facilities to be taken over or regulated by government, except in this case it's even worse of a problem than Bitcoin.  Each mining datacenter would almost inevitably be labeled as a money laundering facility by governments.  First world Cryptonote mining centers might be shut down completely, leaving only some guy in the Congo mining, which could then be easily brute force attacked by state or free lance actors.  Maybe first world mining would continue, just not in datacenters, and would be the equivalent of getting caught with a marijuana farm by the police after they notice your electric bill.

...


Really? PLEASE EXPOUND WITH LINKS AND VERIFIABLE FACTS OF THIS CLAIM.

What large PoW mining facilities for Monero exist?

As far as I know there are very little if none that are "large".

Botnets are not large mining facilities that can be shut down easily.

No Cryptonight ASICs on the horizon (not that there couldn't be one made) currently.

Not sure how much more efficient a Cryptonight ASIC would be over a GPU or CPU.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.

These assets on NXT dec. exchange are traded on chain...

Yes I understand that. What I mean is that the value is off-chain. If you have some venture that issues shares on Nxt, you can move those shares to another platform without any effect on the underlying venture.

In order for a chain to have value it has to be the chain itself that is valued, not claims on external assets that happen (today) to be traded on that chain. At least to a large extent; being used as a platform does give the chain itself some value, but it is a tiny fraction of the asset value.


sr. member
Activity: 441
Merit: 250
I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.

These assets on NXT dec. exchange are traded on chain...
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.
legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1005
I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

"The blockchain" is nonsense without a native currency. Even PoS requires the ability to issue native tokens in order to incentivize people to do it (and even then in current PoS systems, many don't even bother). Hash chains (which is what you are left with if you remove the native issuance) are nothing new and not particularly interesting.
sr. member
Activity: 441
Merit: 250
I didn't understand you argument there. Can you expand?


Most people make the argument that a block chain is useless without a native currency, as Smooth has already done so in this thread.  Bitshares has a native currency, so it's not a drawback.
I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
I didn't understand you argument there. Can you expand?


Most people make the argument that a block chain is useless without a native currency, as Smooth has already done so in this thread.  Bitshares has/is a native currency, so it's not a drawback.
sr. member
Activity: 441
Merit: 250
Quote
The other advantage is that even if Bitcoin was to crash to nothing, 2.0 platforms (Bitshares, Ethereum, etc) like this can blend in with traditional products traded on Wall Street and continue to have value if cryptocurrency is no longer trusted as a store of value in the fallout.  The native currency would obviously still have value being a part of the platform itself.

Bitshares always assumed that the value of BTS doesnt come from being money itself or "digital gold"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DAC/Distributed_Autonomous_Company

If your consensus mechanism is relatively bulletproof, which I believe DPoS now is considering you can specify how many delegates you require for a transaction instead of just 51, then the native currency is obviously going to have large value by default.

I haven't watched all of them, but the best Larimer video is probably the 4 minute one below.  It's like watching a NASA worker from the 70's, complete with identical outfit and all.  Try not to drool at the screen too much, Kelsey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBlAVeVFWFM
I didn't understand you argument there. Can you expand?

I predict the 70's style will be a big advantage to make this go viral on social media at some point ("crazy scientist created Bitcoin successor").
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
Quote
The other advantage is that even if Bitcoin was to crash to nothing, 2.0 platforms (Bitshares, Ethereum, etc) like this can blend in with traditional products traded on Wall Street and continue to have value if cryptocurrency is no longer trusted as a store of value in the fallout.  The native currency would obviously still have value being a part of the platform itself.

Bitshares always assumed that the value of BTS doesnt come from being money itself or "digital gold"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DAC/Distributed_Autonomous_Company

If your consensus mechanism is relatively bulletproof, which I believe DPoS now is considering you can specify how many delegates you require for a transaction instead of just 51, then the native currency is obviously going to have large value by default.

I haven't watched all of them, but the best Larimer video is probably the 4 minute one below.  It's like watching a recreation of NASA worker from the 70's, complete with identical outfit and all.  Try not to drool at the screen too much, Kelsey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBlAVeVFWFM
sr. member
Activity: 441
Merit: 250
Quote
The other advantage is that even if Bitcoin was to crash to nothing, 2.0 platforms (Bitshares, Ethereum, etc) like this can blend in with traditional products traded on Wall Street and continue to have value if cryptocurrency is no longer trusted as a store of value in the fallout.  The native currency would obviously still have value being a part of the platform itself.

Bitshares always assumed that the value of BTS doesnt come from being money itself or "digital gold"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DAC/Distributed_Autonomous_Company
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000
In other news, Bitshares still rising with volume increasing way beyond Ethereum on Poloniex, and any second Kelsey will probably attempt to hand you a brochure for Litecoin for some unknown reason.

Oh, I'm sure we all know the reason. Wink

I'm sure people have made money on Litecoin in the past by knowing that it usually benefits from a delayed bump after BTC, but there's probably too many other big or bigger players in the room now for those benefits to continue in a significant way.  It's overall less risky and more profitable to find whatever you think has the best fundamentals and stick with that, rather than trying to utilize some kind of symbiotic relationship with another coin.

If a PoW coin really did go all the way and take up one fourth the world's entire power supply or whatever it is people speculate, there's only going to be one of them, there's not going to be others, so it's kind of an irrational strategy from many angles where past performance obviously does not dictate future performance.  I do not see that scenario playing out for either BTC or LTC though.

As for BTC living or dying and it's effect on other currency, as I said in the thread below:

The other advantage is that even if Bitcoin was to crash to nothing, 2.0 platforms (Bitshares, Ethereum, etc) like this can blend in with traditional products traded on Wall Street and continue to have value if cryptocurrency is no longer trusted as a store of value in the fallout.  The native currency would obviously still have value being a part of the platform itself.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
In other news, Bitshares still rising with volume increasing way beyond Ethereum on Poloniex, and any second Kelsey will probably attempt to hand you a brochure for Litecoin for some unknown reason.

Oh, I'm sure we all know the reason. Wink
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
If someone read the original post, followed the conclusion, and went to market with that information, you would currently be up 40% profit in a time span of 24 hours:

Good call! I actually bought 10'000 of 'em before BTS started rolling, at 1466 satoshis. The funny thing is, I bought 'em simply because I had the BTC to spare and I thought it was finally time I refilled my bucket. (I had ~10000 earlier, which I bought at twice the price, but I sold 'em at a loss - ~2500 sats - to switch to something else.)

So there you go: a real-world, real-life case of someone who bought at the bottom. The funny thing is, I had no idea it would take off! I wanted a small stake anyway, the price looked right, and I had some spare BTC at the time I bought. That was all.

I hope everyone remembers this little anecdote when some self-adverted hotshot brags, " I bought ---- at the bottom!" Just because someone did, doesn't mean he did so because of his timing acumen.  


EDIT: Shortly after making this post, I heard an "imaginary winner" echoing in my head: "Kid, why not just say you bought at the bottom and show 'em the screenshot? What, are you afraid that someone's going to pounce on you if you're not naked-in-the-street candid? Are you looking to burnish up your loser cred? Geez, do yourself a favour and learn how people tick!"

Sometimes it helps to ask yourself about the other side, I suppose...
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