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Topic: The transition to AnCap - page 3. (Read 6697 times)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
September 04, 2012, 03:04:24 PM
#50
But that kind of power is not harmful because pretty much the only way you can acquire it is by giving others what they most want. That's what will be compensated with wealth.

You've made a mistake here because the two are not related in the way you're implying. A process (giving a subset of people what they want) which provides an attribute (power) is a cause and an effect, but it implies nothing about what one can do with that power (such as make life miserable for any other subset of people or, even worse, cease giving others what they want and simply wielding one's power).

OK, let's say you're the richest man on the planet, in an AnCap society, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Carlos Helu all rolled into one  How do you wield your wealth so as to make others miserable?
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 04, 2012, 11:39:50 AM
#49
But that kind of power is not harmful because pretty much the only way you can acquire it is by giving others what they most want. That's what will be compensated with wealth.

You've made a mistake here because the two are not related in the way you're implying. A process (giving a subset of people what they want) which provides an attribute (power) is a cause and an effect, but it implies nothing about what one can do with that power (such as make life miserable for any other subset of people or, even worse, cease giving others what they want and simply wielding one's power).
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
September 04, 2012, 11:35:09 AM
#48
what about those that dont have much to offer? and those that dont need anything else? if trade is no option how do you ensure survival? i am not saying force should be the counterbalance to willing cooperation. i am saying poperty can itself be force and therefore needs another force to balance it.
Survival is not assured. There is no known system that can ensure survival. If a person cannot produce enough to ensure their own survival, then the only choice is for them to rely on the charity of others. The only question is whether such charity will be voluntary or coerced.

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If an AnCap society is working correctly, there really isn't any "power". Of course you can trade material wealth for other material wealth you may desire and you can trade your labor for wealth. But everything else we would hope would be cancelled out -- unjust force met with just retaliation with as little net effect as possible.
having things other people need is power. when there are no restrictions on what you can have and what you can do with the things you have, there is no limit to power.
Okay, then there's no limit to that kind of power. But that kind of power is not harmful because pretty much the only way you can acquire it is by giving others what they most want. That's what will be compensated with wealth.
hero member
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September 04, 2012, 11:25:31 AM
#47
If someone else has something that you want, there are only two ways you can get it from him. You can offer him something in exchange for it or you can take it by force. You seem to think these things need to balance each other out. However, I would say it's preferable to eliminate the latter leaving only the former.

what about those that dont have much to offer? and those that dont need anything else? if trade is no option how do you ensure survival? i am not saying force should be the counterbalance to willing cooperation. i am saying poperty can itself be force and therefore needs another force to balance it.

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If an AnCap society is working correctly, there really isn't any "power". Of course you can trade material wealth for other material wealth you may desire and you can trade your labor for wealth. But everything else we would hope would be cancelled out -- unjust force met with just retaliation with as little net effect as possible.

having things other people need is power. when there are no restrictions on what you can have and what you can do with the things you have, there is no limit to power.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
September 04, 2012, 10:58:37 AM
#46
I am not talking about paradise on earth. i am talking about the thing between paradise and civil unrest. maybe i am understanding absolute property rights wrong, but to me it seems material wealth is the only source of power in an ancap. so it accumulates even faster than usual and the system will quickly become unstable, because there is nothing that provides a counterbalance to wealth.
If someone else has something that you want, there are only two ways you can get it from him. You can offer him something in exchange for it or you can take it by force. You seem to think these things need to balance each other out. However, I would say it's preferable to eliminate the latter leaving only the former.

If an AnCap society is working correctly, there really isn't any "power". Of course you can trade material wealth for other material wealth you may desire and you can trade your labor for wealth. But everything else we would hope would be cancelled out -- unjust force met with just retaliation with as little net effect as possible.
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1008
September 04, 2012, 10:46:59 AM
#45
That would be a good counterargument to anyone who argued that an AnCap society wouldn't have any violence. However, I don't think anyone is arguing that paradise on Earth is possible. The idea is to avoid making a system that rewards violence and theft. But of course, there will still be the occasional case where people either irrationally resort to violence or, despite our best efforts, find themselves in a situation where violence will benefit them. In those cases, there will definitely be violence.

i am not talking about paradise on earth. i am talking about the thing between paradise and civil unrest. maybe i am understanding absolute property rights wrong, but to me it seems material wealth is the only source of power in an ancap. so it accumulates even faster than usual and the system will quickly become unstable, because there is nothing that provides a counterbalance to wealth.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
September 04, 2012, 07:44:39 AM
#44
lol, where exactly did i say i was talking about "different opinions"?
with limited resources there will always be situations in which one group of people doesnt have enough resources to survive. be it food, water, heating, electricity or the means to produce or transport any of those.
unless they get those resources for free, there will eventually be violence. as far as i understand ancap doesnt force anybody to give anything away for free, ever. so what exactly is the regulatory mechanism here that will stop violence from arising?
That would be a good counterargument to anyone who argued that an AnCap society wouldn't have any violence. However, I don't think anyone is arguing that paradise on Earth is possible. The idea is to avoid making a system that rewards violence and theft. But of course, there will still be the occasional case where people either irrationally resort to violence or, despite our best efforts, find themselves in a situation where violence will benefit them. In those cases, there will definitely be violence.
hero member
Activity: 991
Merit: 1008
September 04, 2012, 07:37:13 AM
#43
if thats really all that is to libertarianism, its a damn stupid idea. a large enough society cannot exist without violence. at some point, interests always collide. you can declare that senf-defense is justified, but very often there is really no specific line at which you can say its my survival thats threatened or just "what i want".
If you are unable to distinguish between self defense and aggression, and don't understand how to resolve differences of opinion without resorting to violence you should talk about these things with your therapist instead of projecting your limitations onto the world at large.

+1. Leave your anger issues out of this.

lol, where exactly did i say i was talking about "different opinions"?
with limited resources there will always be situations in which one group of people doesnt have enough resources to survive. be it food, water, heating, electricity or the means to produce or transport any of those.
unless they get those resources for free, there will eventually be violence. as far as i understand ancap doesnt force anybody to give anything away for free, ever. so what exactly is the regulatory mechanism here that will stop violence from arising?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
September 04, 2012, 04:24:25 AM
#42
This is a load of bull. The NAP is not "deceptive", it's straight out based on absolute private property rights, starting with ownership of your own body.
It's not so much based on it, it's *identical* to it. The reason people phrase it in terms of "non aggression" is because that sounds better. The NAP is incoherent without absolute private property rights.
Well, yeah, but that's tantamount to saying that the golden rule is just a sneaky way of saying that you should be nice to each other. We're getting really close to philosophical masturbation, here, and I'm not high enough for that.

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Writing words on paper, even if that writing is done by someone who has been selected by a majority, does not make applying those words to the people who disagree any less "force".
Well that's the thing. For the NAP to work, you first need to know what is force and what is fraud, and you can't have that without a theory of property rights and a theory of government. To present the NAP as the core is deceptive because the NAP requires a foundation.
This is rapidly approaching the logical and inevitable conclusion of any debate I have with you, Joel. Agreeing at each other at increasing volume. Wink You're right, of course, that the Non-aggression principle is sort of a "ground floor" of libertarianism, while self ownership is the foundation. But just like a house, you don't need to see the foundation if the ground floor is sound. Sure, you can look around in the basement if you like, and any decent tour of the house is going to include it, but for most people, the ground floor is enough.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
September 04, 2012, 03:44:20 AM
#41
This is a load of bull. The NAP is not "deceptive", it's straight out based on absolute private property rights, starting with ownership of your own body.
It's not so much based on it, it's *identical* to it. The reason people phrase it in terms of "non aggression" is because that sounds better. The NAP is incoherent without absolute private property rights.

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Writing words on paper, even if that writing is done by someone who has been selected by a majority, does not make applying those words to the people who disagree any less "force".
Well that's the thing. For the NAP to work, you first need to know what is force and what is fraud, and you can't have that without a theory of property rights and a theory of government. To present the NAP as the core is deceptive because the NAP requires a foundation.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
September 04, 2012, 02:34:01 AM
#40
My participation would only encourage you to make your plan stronger, if you were able. You're the one who ultimately loses if I choose not to participate. Good luck with your whimsical fantasies.

That sounds strangely similar to something else I heard lately....

Quote from: Pirateat40
I can't reveal my business plan, that would ruin it.

So, typical of your posts, you toss out an empty denigration of the proposal, but never back up your assertion.

Just like Pirate, you can't reveal your secret, because you don't have one to reveal.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 04, 2012, 02:21:43 AM
#39
I don't have to back it up. That's because your idea has no traction anyway. But you, on the other hand, do need to identify the problem, if you want a robust solution. You're like kids playing in a sandbox - all make believe. Find the problem, expose it, and then try and find a solution. Until then, know that your ideas are being laughed at.

...by a child.

Such a response only reveals your inability to self analyze your own plan. My participation would only encourage you to make your plan stronger, if you were able. You're the one who ultimately loses if I choose not to participate. Good luck with your whimsical fantasies.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
September 04, 2012, 02:13:28 AM
#38
I don't have to back it up. That's because your idea has no traction anyway. But you, on the other hand, do need to identify the problem, if you want a robust solution. You're like kids playing in a sandbox - all make believe. Find the problem, expose it, and then try and find a solution. Until then, know that your ideas are being laughed at.

...by a child.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 04, 2012, 01:59:08 AM
#37
Hey, we'd like to ensure the safety of our students, what can we offer to get you to agree to never install landmines?

Once they work out a deal, they'll include a rider where that contract gets incorporated into the next (and all subsequent) owner's purchase agreement.

Problem solved.

Problem solved? How funny. Because to me, it sounds like a problem in the making.

How so? Edge effects and migratory patterns and all that other agenda 21 bullshit you're always on about doesn't apply here.

Don't be an idiot twice over.

1. You're not as bright as you think you are with regard to the environment.
2. Nobody said the problem had anything to do with the environment.

Your problem is your optimism with regard to your fantasy utopia. Think harder about your proposed solutions. I shouldn't have to play devil's advocate for you. If you want people to respect your ideas, then hit them hard yourself and see where it gets you.

It's your claim, back it up, or back down.

I don't have to back it up. That's because your idea has no traction anyway. But you, on the other hand, do need to identify the problem, if you want a robust solution. You're like kids playing in a sandbox - all make believe. Find the problem, expose it, and then try and find a solution. Until then, know that your ideas are being laughed at.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
September 04, 2012, 01:46:40 AM
#36
Hey, we'd like to ensure the safety of our students, what can we offer to get you to agree to never install landmines?

Once they work out a deal, they'll include a rider where that contract gets incorporated into the next (and all subsequent) owner's purchase agreement.

Problem solved.

Problem solved? How funny. Because to me, it sounds like a problem in the making.

How so? Edge effects and migratory patterns and all that other agenda 21 bullshit you're always on about doesn't apply here.

Don't be an idiot twice over.

1. You're not as bright as you think you are with regard to the environment.
2. Nobody said the problem had anything to do with the environment.

Your problem is your optimism with regard to your fantasy utopia. Think harder about your proposed solutions. I shouldn't have to play devil's advocate for you. If you want people to respect your ideas, then hit them hard yourself and see where it gets you.

It's your claim, back it up, or back down.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 04, 2012, 01:42:07 AM
#35
Hey, we'd like to ensure the safety of our students, what can we offer to get you to agree to never install landmines?

Once they work out a deal, they'll include a rider where that contract gets incorporated into the next (and all subsequent) owner's purchase agreement.

Problem solved.

Problem solved? How funny. Because to me, it sounds like a problem in the making.

How so? Edge effects and migratory patterns and all that other agenda 21 bullshit you're always on about doesn't apply here.

Don't be an idiot twice over.

1. You're not as bright as you think you are with regard to the environment.
2. Nobody said the problem had anything to do with the environment.

Your problem is your optimism with regard to your fantasy utopia. Think harder about your proposed solutions. I shouldn't have to play devil's advocate for you. If you want people to respect your ideas, then hit them hard yourself and see where it gets you.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
September 04, 2012, 01:35:00 AM
#34
Hey, we'd like to ensure the safety of our students, what can we offer to get you to agree to never install landmines?

Once they work out a deal, they'll include a rider where that contract gets incorporated into the next (and all subsequent) owner's purchase agreement.

Problem solved.

Problem solved? How funny. Because to me, it sounds like a problem in the making.

How so? Edge effects and migratory patterns and all that other agenda 21 bullshit you're always on about doesn't apply here.
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
September 04, 2012, 01:29:40 AM
#33
Hey, we'd like to ensure the safety of our students, what can we offer to get you to agree to never install landmines?

Once they work out a deal, they'll include a rider where that contract gets incorporated into the next (and all subsequent) owner's purchase agreement.

Problem solved.

Problem solved? How funny. Because to me, it sounds like a problem in the making.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
September 04, 2012, 12:39:20 AM
#32
This is pretty much the soul of my argument, It doesn't really matter where you start, so long as the system is fair.
I agree. So I guess the best we can do is start where we are.

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FWIW, if someone can show, or even give a really good argument as to, the land I reside on being ancestrally theirs and taken by force, I probably would at least give them some manner of reparations.
I would hope that rising prosperity would lead to enough voluntary charity that inequities from the starting position could be wiped out even faster. I think there's a general consensus that these are at least in part unjust.

I still believe the only realistic chance AnCap has is to form an alliance with other groups that advocate for smaller government and to move in that direction. We don't need to sell the roads day one, and I don't think we can. And I think we can't have any confidence that AnCap is right until we start shrinking the government and see what happens. Getting rid of the courts and police will be something people can only have the confidence to do if getting rid of other things works as AnCap advocates hope.

And seriously, what AnCap advocate wouldn't consider a minarchy a vast improvement over what we have?
No argument with anything up to this point except to say that we needn't get rid of anything, just remove the monopoly and the forced payment.

However...
I honestly, I think AnCap advocates and Libertarians should ditch the NAP argument. It's just a deceptive way of trying to convince people in absolute private property rights while pretending to be arguing against force or fraud. Taxation isn't force if the government is taking money that is legitimately its money because that's what the law say.

This is a load of bull. The NAP is not "deceptive", it's straight out based on absolute private property rights, starting with ownership of your own body. Writing words on paper, even if that writing is done by someone who has been selected by a majority, does not make applying those words to the people who disagree any less "force".

Democracy: Two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
Representative Republicanism: Two wolves and a sheep voting on who picks dinner.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
September 03, 2012, 11:55:28 PM
#31
This is pretty much the soul of my argument, It doesn't really matter where you start, so long as the system is fair.
I agree. So I guess the best we can do is start where we are.

Quote
FWIW, if someone can show, or even give a really good argument as to, the land I reside on being ancestrally theirs and taken by force, I probably would at least give them some manner of reparations.
I would hope that rising prosperity would lead to enough voluntary charity that inequities from the starting position could be wiped out even faster. I think there's a general consensus that these are at least in part unjust.

I still believe the only realistic chance AnCap has is to form an alliance with other groups that advocate for smaller government and to move in that direction. We don't need to sell the roads day one, and I don't think we can. And I think we can't have any confidence that AnCap is right until we start shrinking the government and see what happens. Getting rid of the courts and police will be something people can only have the confidence to do if getting rid of other things works as AnCap advocates hope.

And seriously, what AnCap advocate wouldn't consider a minarchy a vast improvement over what we have?

I honestly, I think AnCap advocates and Libertarians should ditch the NAP argument. It's just a deceptive way of trying to convince people in absolute private property rights while pretending to be arguing against force or fraud. Taxation isn't force if the government is taking money that is legitimately its money because that's what the law say.
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