The Undo Transaction - page 2. | Bitcointalksearch.org

Floxynice

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Quote from: LoyceV on January 13, 2025, 06:38:01 AM

Quote from: Floxynice on January 13, 2025, 06:01:23 AM

I just imagined a world without noobs where everyone is an expert. There's no room for errors because experts will likely behave like machines. Even experts atimes makes errors or dramatically changes their mind.

It's not about not making mistakes, it's about thinking before doing something. If you need more than 3 seconds, think for more than 3 seconds. If you can't do that, no amount of popups is going to stop you.

Ok, I understand the logic.
You think before you act, and not wanting a wait time to reconsider your decision after you have acted.

LoyceV

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Quote from: Floxynice on January 13, 2025, 06:01:23 AM

I just imagined a world without noobs where everyone is an expert. There's no room for errors because experts will likely behave like machines. Even experts atimes makes errors or dramatically changes their mind.

It's not about not making mistakes, it's about thinking before doing something. If you need more than 3 seconds, think for more than 3 seconds. If you can't do that, no amount of popups is going to stop you.

Floxynice

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Quote from: ABCbits on January 13, 2025, 05:06:16 AM

Quote from: Floxynice on January 13, 2025, 04:30:29 AM

Quote from: ABCbits on January 12, 2025, 03:46:46 AM

Jokes aside, people already can "undo" or "cancel" their unconfirmed transaction thanks to existence of RBF and full-RBF. They just need to use wallet which support such feature, such as Electrum.

My idea of RBF is when your transaction is unconfirmed after a long time of being initiated, maybe miners dropped it because of low transaction fee, you can initiate another transaction with a higher fee to replace the former. If this happens, it means the later transaction is still going to be broadcasted in the network. How then do we replace the former and ensure that the later is also not processed in the network.

Sorry if my question appears amateur. Last week I read about RBF (Replace by Fee) and CPFP (Child Pay for Parent).

If you want to ensure both former (1st) and later (2nd) transaction never confirmed, you justneed to create 3rd transaction using RBF or full-RBF feature.

Thanks, I'll read about full-RBF feature, else I will be tempted to ask how the 3rd transaction will not enter the network.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 13, 2025, 05:49:52 AM

I like the Linux CLI default of never asking for confirmation. If you're not sure about something, don't tell your computer to do it.

I just imagined a world without noobs where everyone is an expert. There's no room for errors because experts will likely behave like machines. Even experts atimes makes errors or dramatically changes their mind. A 3 second delay could be infinitesimal.

LoyceV

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Quote from: ABCbits on January 13, 2025, 05:06:16 AM

IMO it's more likely wallet provider either add more warning

Adding more warnings will just make people click through it without reading. Any warning that you see many times, gets ignored. I like the Linux CLI default of never asking for confirmation. If you're not sure about something, don't tell your computer to do it.
Bitcoin Core lets me wait about 3 seconds before I can click the final button, and that feels kinda slow Tongue

There's a bigger problem with this: "if you design something to be foolproof, the universe will create a a bigger fool" (I don't know who originally came up with this quote). More disclaimers and warnings just lead to dumber people who don't think, because they expect to be protected everywhere. I'd much rather see people think before they do something.

ABCbits

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Quote from: Floxynice on January 13, 2025, 04:30:29 AM

Quote from: ABCbits on January 12, 2025, 03:46:46 AM

Jokes aside, people already can "undo" or "cancel" their unconfirmed transaction thanks to existence of RBF and full-RBF. They just need to use wallet which support such feature, such as Electrum.

My idea of RBF is when your transaction is unconfirmed after a long time of being initiated, maybe miners dropped it because of low transaction fee, you can initiate another transaction with a higher fee to replace the former. If this happens, it means the later transaction is still going to be broadcasted in the network. How then do we replace the former and ensure that the later is also not processed in the network.

Sorry if my question appears amateur. Last week I read about RBF (Replace by Fee) and CPFP (Child Pay for Parent).

If you want to ensure both former (1st) and later (2nd) transaction never confirmed, you justneed to create 3rd transaction using RBF or full-RBF feature.

Quote from: LoyceV on January 13, 2025, 05:02:00 AM

--snip--
Your wallet could add a delay before broadcasting, but that's just moving the "you should check it"-part and makes your transaction slower.

Some people already complain their transaction isn't confirmed fast enough, so i doubt wallet provider would do that. IMO it's more likely wallet provider either add more warning or more detailed transaction preview.

LoyceV

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Quote from: Findingnemo on January 12, 2025, 07:18:17 AM

If you don't want to make mistake then don't do mistakes just as simple as that.

Even Protonmail has an "Undo" option now after sending. You can't undo email to external providers, so all this means is they've added an extra time delay before really sending the email. More and more services are doing that, and all it does is make email slower.
Your wallet could add a delay before broadcasting, but that's just moving the "you should check it"-part and makes your transaction slower.

Floxynice

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Quote from: ABCbits on January 12, 2025, 03:46:46 AM

Jokes aside, people already can "undo" or "cancel" their unconfirmed transaction thanks to existence of RBF and full-RBF. They just need to use wallet which support such feature, such as Electrum.

My idea of RBF is when your transaction is unconfirmed after a long time of being initiated, maybe miners dropped it because of low transaction fee, you can initiate another transaction with a higher fee to replace the former. If this happens, it means the later transaction is still going to be broadcasted in the network. How then do we replace the former and ensure that the later is also not processed in the network.

Sorry if my question appears amateur. Last week I read about RBF (Replace by Fee) and CPFP (Child Pay for Parent).

Findingnemo

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Quote from: Skybuck on January 08, 2025, 04:52:12 PM

To make blockchain more forgiving for human errors it's time to introduce the "undo" transaction.

This undo transaction can be issued up to 5 blocks from the original transaction, after which it is no longer possible.

In case of bitcoin this should give the user 50 minutes the time to issue the undo transaction, after the 6th confirmation of the original transaction it is no longer possible if the undo transaction was not included in the 2th, 3th, 4th, 5th, 6th block since the original transaction, being the 1th block.

You can undo the TX with RBF, the difference is, it's possible only with zero confirmations. Adding 5 blocks doesn't solve the problem at all but just elongate the waiting time period for confirmation. Let's see if user can undo TX on or before 5 confirmations then it's obvious that people will accept only TX with 6 or more confirmations.

If you don't want to make mistake then don't do mistakes just as simple as that.

Floxynice

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Quote from: Skybuck on January 08, 2025, 04:52:12 PM

In case of bitcoin this should give the user 50 minutes the time to issue the undo transaction, after the 6th confirmation of the original transaction it is no longer possible if the undo transaction was not included in the 2th, 3th, 4th, 5th, 6th block since the original transaction, being the 1th block.

Don't you think that if this is implemented in the bitcoin network, it will give some people the room to malicious undo transactions which can pave way for double spending and hence create confusion in the network.

You are trying to destroy one of the unique attributes of bitcoin as I learnt, i.e irreversibility. This feature makes bitcoin fit for ai and machine integration in the future.

Edit: Just noticing that pooya87 has said similar thing above.

ABCbits

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As usual, i see you make unique suggestion/idea on technical board. I can't wait coffee shop require 6 (5 + 1) confirmation and exchange require 11 (5 + 6) confirmation, once your idea implemented on Bitcoin network.

Jokes aside, people already can "undo" or "cancel" their unconfirmed transaction thanks to existence of RBF and full-RBF. They just need to use wallet which support such feature, such as Electrum.

LoyceV

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Quote from: gmaxwell on January 08, 2025, 06:54:39 PM

Just never sign a transaction unless its locktimed for at least 5 blocks in the future. TADA "undo". Enjoy.

I like it! OP could even patch one of the open source wallets to do this for him. I won't use it though: it'll just be annoyingly slow. Waiting for 1 confirmation already feels slow when I order something.

Quote from: Skybuck on January 08, 2025, 04:52:12 PM

more forgiving for human errors

Scammers will love this feature!

NotATether

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This is not currently possible and probably never will be in the foreseeable future because of the simple reason of once you send a transaction to another address, you no longer have the private keys to spend that sent BTC.

So any proposal that implements an "undo" transaction will not work out because then anybody could do chargebacks, and normal people would no longer be able to trust that untrustworthy actors have sent their BTC and won't try to take it back fraudulently.

Ziskinberg

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50 minutes and an "undo" option? That doesn’t seem like something the community would support.

Bitcoin’s whole purpose is to scale and provide fast, irreversible transactions. A 50-minute wait time and the ability to cancel transactions go completely against that purpose. It would make things messy, like following the model of some fiat digital wallets.

In our country, one of the wallet providers actually introduced something similar, and while it may work for fiat, it feels out of place for Bitcoin.

Quote

GCash cannot automatically reverse a completed transaction, but you can dispute it

Some users like it, but we are not fiat, we are bitcoin,, so we don't follow their style.

pooya87

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When you read the whitepaper and study Bitcoin more you realize that one of the principles which is the central idea behind Bitcoin was its irreversibility. It is actually addressing an existing problem with previous payment systems (eg. PayPal) where the transactions can be reversed very easily and the problems such a feature creates for its users specifically the merchants (receiving payments).

What you are suggesting goes against that principle.

gmaxwell

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Just never sign a transaction unless its locktimed for at least 5 blocks in the future. TADA "undo". Enjoy.

Zaguru12

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Quote from: Skybuck on January 08, 2025, 04:52:12 PM

To make blockchain more forgiving for human errors it's time to introduce the "undo" transaction.

This undo transaction can be issued up to 5 blocks from the original transaction, after which it is no longer possible.

In case of bitcoin this should give the user 50 minutes the time to issue the undo transaction, after the 6th confirmation of the original transaction it is no longer possible if the undo transaction was not included in the 2th, 3th, 4th, 5th, 6th block since the original transaction, being the 1th block.

First clarification is 50minutes doesn’t mean your transaction will be in the 5th block already. Yes the average time to mine a block is ten minutes but that is not constant and it varies, you can still be have one single block mined in whole 50 minutes.

Now base on your question, I think undo transaction can lead to double spending which will be a very bad flaw if a blockchain has it, take for example bitcoin Been treated as means for payment and when the payment is done imagine the sender going behind to double spend such transaction what happens to the seller who got double played will they use bitcoin as means of payment again? Even traditional banks don’t release wrong transactions immediately they check to see if it was genuine mistake before they process the reversal. So undo transaction isn’t a good move to me

BitMaxz

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5 confirmations, then you can undo the transaction?

I think that's impossible. I don't think there's any wallet that can do this except for transactions with 0 confirmation. Electrum can cancel the transaction, but the process is by replacing the old transaction to send BTC back to your wallet with a higher TX fee.

DannyHamilton

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Quote from: Skybuck on January 08, 2025, 04:52:12 PM

To make blockchain more forgiving for human errors it's time to introduce the "undo" transaction.

This undo transaction can be issued up to 5 blocks from the original transaction, after which it is no longer possible.

In case of bitcoin this should give the user 50 minutes the time to issue the undo transaction, after the 6th confirmation of the original transaction it is no longer possible if the undo transaction was not included in the 2th, 3th, 4th, 5th, 6th block since the original transaction, being the 1th block.

Sounds like a useless waste of time and effort. If I hand you a $10 bill and you walk away, is there an undo for that?

What if the person issuing the undo makes a mistake? Should we allow another 5 blocks to undo the undo?

Skybuck

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To make blockchain more forgiving for human errors it's time to introduce the "undo" transaction.

This undo transaction can be issued up to 5 blocks from the original transaction, after which it is no longer possible.

In case of bitcoin this should give the user 50 minutes the time to issue the undo transaction, after the 6th confirmation of the original transaction it is no longer possible if the undo transaction was not included in the 2th, 3th, 4th, 5th, 6th block since the original transaction, being the 1th block.

Topic: The Undo Transaction - page 2. (Read 617 times)