Topic: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights - page 3. (Read 8086 times)

Make your case. I'm all ears.

Maybe we can easily agree then   If its proven that food regulation is the best way to reduce food poisoning, do you accept that its valid for society to force regulation on food providers?

But I made no such assumption.

In reference to an earlier post that you made, according to the linear scale you provided (quoted below), you've indicated that if the data is convincing, intervention is acceptable, even necessary.


Now, with regard to specific issues such as anthropogenic global warming, species extinction, deforestation, edge effects, wildlife corridors, water tables, soil sustainability (the list goes on), I'm asking you a rather simple question:

Do you have solid and credible reasons to believe that the scientific data on those subjects is flimsy and speculative? If you have not at least taken the time to read the relevant literature on the subject, then I'd venture a guess that you are not qualified to make any type of statement claiming the data is flimsy or speculative. If, on the other hand, you have made an effort to stay abreast of the issues and scientific studies, then I'd at least like to hear your reasons why you believe the data is speculative. Assuming the former, shouldn't you concede to the experts in the field, and given the linear scale you provided, submit to regulation/intervention? If the latter, I'm asking you for your analysis.

I considered all of the ideas and options, looked at the past and determined that the position or ideology I side with would be the least damning. To wit, I do care if people get poisoned or not. I want no one to get hurt. Can I prevent all of it, both criminal and accidental? Nope, nobody can do that. I always consider the real world in all of my responses, if anything, I try to be as careful as possible to introduce the least amount of injury and external influence to everyone. That is the goal and mission of the laws and justice. The least harm and the most freedoms and liberties, right?

The real world is only what you make it. It merely depends on the actors. Some societal laws are okay, others are absolutely draconian.

The assumption was that the data (whatever it's origins) was speculative. I wasn't starting with global anthropogenic climate change data per se. It was a broad stroke assumption about complex descriptions and interactions involving tens or hundreds of variables with varying degrees of influence. Piecing that together may be construed as second guessing. It could lead to false assumptions or improper conclusions with partial or ineffective solutions. Lots of what-ifs and wherefores. Not impossible to solve, but any solutions may also be just as difficult to produce as is their efficacy and outcomes. Unless were just going to go back to being cave men...

Please back up your claim that the scientific data available is flimsy and can only be interpreted as speculative. I would say you're the one speculating. No, even worse, you're simply choosing to be unaware of how in depth the scientific studies are, and how damning the data is. I've offered you reading material, but it seems it's more convenient for you to be blissfully unaware.

Then we differ.  In my world, the people who are on the land with legal title are the owners.  Their right comes from the society they are in and unless you destroy their society their ownership won't change.  Trust me, I have been to eastern Turkey and they would actively defend their land if you tried to interfere.

As I said earlier, you don't want to look at the real world consequences of your ideas and you have no interest in accepting other people's ideas.  It makes debate circular.  If someone is concerned about food poisoning, your logic is "My list of rules says food safety rules are a breach of my property rights so its all wrong and who cares about people dying."  Would it not be better if you did consider the real world instead of just ideas?  

Given the conditions and circumstances you stated, the Turks and Israelis are the occupiers of the land/houses. The Cypriots are the rightful owners. Your question is one of is-ought.

So help me understand you by making your position clear.  Let me repeat the question:

If you go to eastern Turkey, Israel or northern Cyprus, you see property that is owned and cared for by its owners.  Try to take it and they have a legal system that will punish you.  Dispute their ownership and they will product title deeds. 

If you go across the borders, you will meet Armenians, Arabs and Greek Cypriots who will tell you of rape, massacres and people running for their lives from the same properties.  They have title deeds to those properties and if you go to court in Armenia, the West Bank or southern Cyprus, the court will tell you these people are the legal owners.  In the Palestinian and Cypriots' cases, they often still have the doorkeys from the houses they fled from.

Who is the real owner of those houses?  The Turks and Israelis that live in them or the Armenians/Arabs/Greek Cypriots?

I've never said ownership in the real-world "legal" sense was not enough, if anything it's excessively complicated and contradictory. In addition to that, it also depends on what country, what part of said country, what jurisdiction and what judge you have. My take on ownership and property is quite concise. It was your version that's convoluted. Who needs to make themselves more clear here? Not me.

My treatise on "The Law" is what I believe. I would assume that isn't too hard a read.

True, debating complex subjects in snippet form is no substitute for learning. But neither is assuming one man, or even an army of supposed knowledgeable men should be directing and controlling the rest of the world based on speculative data, especially when it involves a lot of guessing (probabilities and statistics). That's what we affectionately call hubris.

My take on it is this: the more obvious the affect (man's inputs) the more direct the approach and the more "hands on". The less obvious the affect, or limited the understanding is, or the data is of questionable interpretation or origins, the less direct, and therefore less intervention, is advisable.

Don't guess, don't surmise, don't purport, don't assume, don't speculate, just prove or disprove then direct your actions in accordance.

If I were to compose a scale, this is what it would look like:

(Less understanding/intervention) 0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  (More understanding/intervention).

FredericBastiat, was that a long way of saying that ownership in the legal real world sense is not enough?  Thats what you said last time.  If so, thats fine.  You have your ideas and they are lovely.  If not, then you really need to make yourself clear.

An idea, being intangible, is only within the confines of the mind of the man who believes it, regardless of its truthfulness. So, your ideas are yours, and my ideas are mine. Okay...? Only your ideas matter to you, and they are only your ideas too.

If we're describing tangible things, it matters not what our attitudes towards them are, as that would not change their composition. My attitude toward how gravity works doesn't change the effects of gravity any more than your attitudes and ideas towards it, changes them either.

I remember our conversations about the Turks, Israelies and Cypriots. Given specific instances and evidences regarding who owned what and when, and why who took what away from whom, could resolve the issues of ownership. The enforcement of that could get messy, but nobody was disputing that wouldn't be the case. The argument you were positing was the fact that mere enforcement determines ownership, which isn't true (assuming rightful ownership justifications), it only indicates current possession. Ownership is a concept wherein just one of the components would be the defense of said property.

Complex systems (i.e. the Earth) are not subjects to be summarized in a paragraph. It takes a sustained interest level (months to years) which allows an individual to absorb lots of articles and books. Any single item, evaluated out of context, won't go very far.

Do you really believe that debating snippets is a substitute for genuine learning? Before the end of the day, I will post a set of books that I earnestly recommend, as well as some PDFs or HTML articles, which won't cost you any money. Please don't pretend that my offer is anything other than what it is, which is to allow you to have a greater understanding of the complexities of our world, which in turn, might affect the political views you value.

FirstAscent, you misunderstand Frederic.  We established in the IP thread that he works on the basis that only ideas matter and the real world consequences are immaterial.  He uses phrases like "factual ownership" as if the there were some other more important kind of ownership.  So pointing out that something is impractical achieves nothing as he doesn't care.  All that matters to him is his ideas.  And it is his ideas only.

Frederic - you'll remember this from our conversation about who owns lands in Eastern Turkey, Israel and northern Cyprus.

I will remain stubborn in my beliefs until you demonstrate good reasoning to lead me to believe otherwise. Provide an example, don't "reference" entire books. I'm not, at this moment in time, going to go purchase a book just so I can further extend this conversation. Don't get me wrong, I like to learn new things, but I'd like to see you supply a specific scenario you have in mind and then we could argue the finer points of regulatory implementation and methodologies.

I understand there are complexities beyond my knowledge and experience. This is true. Can you provide a scenario which would demonstrate the legitimacy of your position?

When I read your responses, I see an intelligent person, but one who is willfully stubborn when it comes to clinging to a political ideology, as opposed to reevaluating his world view. We are in agreement regarding what types of things require regulation, to some extent. I refer to the latter type of regulation you have mentioned above. But I am in disagreement over your proposed method of enforcement.

I could write plenty here, but to get the ball back in your court, here's the short response.

Regulation by prosecution from neighbors assumes the following:

• The neighbor has a high level knowledge
• The neighbor is not engaging in similar activities
• The neighbor understands the damage you are causing
• The local court understands the case
• The effects you are causing are guaranteed to be noticed by at least one party willing to successfully prosecute
• The effects you are causing can be reversed by the time you are prosecuted

With the world's current population, we cannot assume that there are enough neighbors who can understand the synergistic effects of trophic cascades, edge effects, riparian zones, extirpation, pollination, HIPPO, OPPIH, etc., etc., etc.

Your model may look good from your current base of knowledge. Read Edward O. Wilson's The Future of Life and then get back to me with your world view.

I would have to agree, if you're ignorant of the scientific data, you shouldn't be influencing policy.

I'm not sure what I'm ignoring. We are speaking in generalizations, so I'm not sure exactly under what circumstances your question applies to regulation. Everybody's experience or interaction with their environment, including their neighbor, will be unique. I really don't like the cast-a-wide-net type of regulation, any more than I like treating every murderer the same way, despite the fact that dead is dead. However, if the scientific data you're referring to indicates some sort of measurable annoyance, then that specific type of interaction could be regulated (I prefer the word prosecuted).

To be very crystal clear, if by regulation you mean to define what types of property I can own or who I can trade it with (i.e. you tell me I can't own coal because it could pollute) then I don't agree with your version of regulation. On the other hand, if the coal I burn pollutes the property you possess, then that action you could possibly regulate (the unconstrained emissions). All actions require at least two actors to determine crime. I believe there is no such thing as a victimless crime.

To wit, you could regulate the actions and actors depending on the severity they impart to the other properties in their vicinity, but you shouldn't regulate the material itself. Neither could your regulations disproportionately impose greater harm to the violator than the original crime. The greater the crime, the greater the time (i.e., pickpockets are different than murderers).

To regulate another man's property implies you are a part owner in their possessions. A fun little example would be cocaine. If I, as a citizen, possess cocaine, I'm a criminal. However if you're a DEA agent, and you confiscate the cocaine, you're now in possession of it. Wouldn't that, by the law (assuming equity application) make you the criminal now? Talk about a hot potato! No one could possess cocaine since the law is no respecter of persons.

I'm going to have to call you out on this. What you wrote is mostly nonsense. I'll be happy to give you the opportunity to mold it into something which says something, though. It is nonsense because it is irrelevant that science does not require regulation as pertaining to this discussion. It is relevant that the implications of scientific study and the data it has produced may or may not require regulation of actions which are committed by individuals and businesses.


There's truth to what you're saying here, but as it applies to the real world, it is much less relevant. However, as applicable to climate change, and loss of biodiversity, and the extinction of species, I will give you the opportunity to show credible and significant science that falls in line with your point number 3, or credible and significant science which counters point number 1, thus demonstrating your point number 4.


If you do not subscribe to the logical implication which states that the belief that if regulation is unnecessary that scenario 2 is what you believe, then what do you believe?

1. The data is incorrect (or absent), therefore regulation is unnecessary.
2. The data is correct, but regulation is still unnecessary.
3. Regulation is unnecessary, therefore I will claim that the data is incorrect.

You're obviously denying statement 3, but in reading your post, I can't help but think that you do indeed subscribe to statement 3. However, since you're denying it, that leaves 1 and 2. You seem to be claiming 1. Are you claiming it based on the fact that you have willfully ignored educating yourself on the scientific data, or based on the fact that you have indeed educated yourself on the matters? If the latter, please share the relevant literature which backs up your belief. If the former, which I suspect, just admit it.


And this only serves to underscore a point I have been making, which is to say, if you are ignorant of scientific data, either willfully or simply because you have not been exposed to the data, then you are neither qualified to influence policy nor can your actions on your land go unregulated.

Furthermore, you have completely failed to address a very important question that I asked you, and I will not let you ignore it. Perhaps your ignoring of it was by design? Tell me, if the scientific data is correct, demonstrate how property rights is a complete and robust solution in of itself, without regulation.

I'm not an advocate of ignoring anything, good bad or indifferent, or for that matter, their existence. However, some solutions do require less, not more intervention. Science, or more specifically physics and politics are different animals. The ability to observe, express and describe one's environment is not the same as why we think one type of action over another is necessarily bad or good or somewhere in between. Those are mere attitudes and emotions irrespective of their physical characteristics. Science doesn't require regulation, it just is.


Given those two variables you have 4 combinations. 1) data is correct, problems are real; 2) data is incorrect, problems are real; 3)data is correct, problems aren't real; and finally 4)data is incorrect, and problems aren't real. Just saying.


I'm not sure if any political ideology would necessarily produce such a belief outcome. That, at least, is not how I see it. I don't subscribe to the belief that if regulation is unnecessary that scenario 2 is what I believe. My version of regulation and where it applies is when an individual or group of individuals has initiated aggression against me sans provocation. Given that outcome, the aggression towards me requires some "regulation" of the aggressor(s). For all intents and purposes, don't initiate "regulation" against/towards me if I haven't aggressed you first. No carte blanche regulation should ever be applied to all. That violates the premise of Liberty, private property, and life; those things we hold near and dear.


No one can see the future, but we can all speculate based on examples in the past. We should be able to address most of the current issues of the day given enough evidence; and if we can't then, we take a wait and see stance. Probability and statistics aside, I do think there are some things we do as humans that we don' t understand very well, and we should take extra caution to reduce our negative footprint on society, but until such time as we have better measuring capabilities or predictive skills we shouldn't be forcing society as a whole into any particular direction, so aggressive regulation is a no-go, in my opinion.