Topic: The &#039;Voluntarism can&#039;t provide Essential Services&#039; Argument - page 6. (Read 10625 times)

Quote from: AyeYo on June 16, 2011, 06:33:46 PM

And, no, they DO need to be forced. They're benefiting from it so they're going to pay their share for it whether they like it or not.

So... Little old lady decides not to pay 'Her share'. You gonna hold a gun to her head and force her?

And what happens if she still says no?

Then we throw her old ass in prison for tax evasion. It happens on the daily, yet you seem like you've never heard of it before.

And if she resists being thrown into prison or attempts to escape from prison, you shoot her. You are ultimately claiming the right to kill someone if their definition of "fair share" is different than yours.

Welcome to the real world. It's called an organized society.

So I guess we'll never lock up anyone, ever, for anything, because then we'd be claiming a right to kill someone because their morals are different than ours. Murderers, rapists... you're free to gol! Who am I to judge what is and isn't ok?

You can judge for yourself, but not for me or her. You can't use my resources to enforce your notions of responsible social behavior and expect me not to resist you- especially when My notions are so very different than yours. It's not unreasonable to conclude that people who kill stingy old ladies because they are stingy are worse than stingy old ladies.

Cool. So then you can't force your ideals on me, therefore I can go and rape whoever I want and you can't punish me because I think rape is teh awesomesauce.

So what you're really saying is that you don't trust YOURSELF with so much freedom. I understand now. You need external discipline to keep yourself in line. I got news for you, Homeslice: you try raping me or mine and you'll find some external discipline regardless of the legal structure. You can trust your loved-ones to the care of some flat-footed donut muncher. I put my faith in Smith and Wesson.

myrkul

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Cool. So then you can't force your ideals on me, therefore I can go and rape whoever I want and you can't punish me because I think rape is teh awesomesauce.

Sure, you can try. You'd then be acting against the organizing principles of the society, and therefore not protected by them. The lady, for instance, would have the ability to blow your brains out the back of your skull for trying.

Reikoku

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Quote from: AyeYo on June 16, 2011, 06:29:27 PM

Why not? Who are you to tell me what's moral and what's not moral?

If I can't tell you that in my society you need to your fair share or else... then you can't tell me that in your society I can't kill people or else. It's called being consistent. If I can't impose my moral views on other people then neither can you.

This viewpoint justifies any law. This justifies laws under Kim jong-Il, etc. If you simply accept that any law is morally justified because it is law, then you completely disregard the right of the public to liberty and justice.

It is true that if you had a society in which the consensus was that murder was fine, you'd probably be able to keep a society going in which murder was legal. There just isn't as much of a case against murder laws as there is against oppressive taxation.

AyeYo

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Quote from: billyjoeallen on June 16, 2011, 06:30:47 PM

Quote from: AyeYo on June 16, 2011, 06:11:37 PM

Quote from: billyjoeallen on June 16, 2011, 06:06:38 PM

Quote from: AyeYo on June 16, 2011, 06:11:37 PM

And, no, they DO need to be forced. They're benefiting from it so they're going to pay their share for it whether they like it or not.

So... Little old lady decides not to pay 'Her share'. You gonna hold a gun to her head and force her?

And what happens if she still says no?

Then we throw her old ass in prison for tax evasion. It happens on the daily, yet you seem like you've never heard of it before.

And if she resists being thrown into prison or attempts to escape from prison, you shoot her. You are ultimately claiming the right to kill someone if their definition of "fair share" is different than yours.

Welcome to the real world. It's called an organized society.

So I guess we'll never lock up anyone, ever, for anything, because then we'd be claiming a right to kill someone because their morals are different than ours. Murderers, rapists... you're free to gol! Who am I to judge what is and isn't ok?

You can judge for yourself, but not for me or her. You can't use my resources to enforce your notions of responsible social behavior and expect me not to resist you- especially when My notions are so very different than yours. It's not unreasonable to conclude that people who kill stingy old ladies because they are stingy are worse than stingy old ladies.

Cool. So then you can't force your ideals on me, therefore I can go and rape whoever I want and you can't punish me because I think rape is teh awesomesauce.

billyjoeallen

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Quote from: billyjoeallen on June 16, 2011, 06:06:38 PM

Quote from: Reikoku on June 16, 2011, 06:19:39 PM

And, no, they DO need to be forced. They're benefiting from it so they're going to pay their share for it whether they like it or not.

So... Little old lady decides not to pay 'Her share'. You gonna hold a gun to her head and force her?

And what happens if she still says no?

Then we throw her old ass in prison for tax evasion. It happens on the daily, yet you seem like you've never heard of it before.

And if she resists being thrown into prison or attempts to escape from prison, you shoot her. You are ultimately claiming the right to kill someone if their definition of "fair share" is different than yours.

Welcome to the real world. It's called an organized society.

So I guess we'll never lock up anyone, ever, for anything, because then we'd be claiming a right to kill someone because their morals are different than ours. Murderers, rapists... you're free to gol! Who am I to judge what is and isn't ok?

You can judge for yourself, but not for me or her. You can't use my resources to enforce your notions of responsible social behavior and expect me not to resist you- especially when My notions are so very different than yours. It's not unreasonable to conclude that people who kill stingy old ladies because they are stingy are worse than stingy old ladies.

AyeYo

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Activity: 154

Merit: 103

Murder and rape aren't the same as not paying taxes. Roll Eyes

Don't take the ludicrous position that all crime is wrong and equal. All laws are not automatically just. All welfare is not automatically just.

Why not? Who are you to tell me what's moral and what's not moral?

If I can't tell you that in my society you need to your fair share or else... then you can't tell me that in your society I can't kill people or else. It's called being consistent. If I can't impose my moral views on other people then neither can you.

Reikoku

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firstbits: 1kwc1p

Murder and rape aren't the same as not paying taxes. Roll Eyes

Don't take the ludicrous position that all crime is wrong and equal. All laws are not automatically just. All welfare is not automatically just.

AyeYo

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Activity: 154

Merit: 103

Quote from: billyjoeallen on June 16, 2011, 06:06:38 PM

And, no, they DO need to be forced. They're benefiting from it so they're going to pay their share for it whether they like it or not.

So... Little old lady decides not to pay 'Her share'. You gonna hold a gun to her head and force her?

And what happens if she still says no?

Then we throw her old ass in prison for tax evasion. It happens on the daily, yet you seem like you've never heard of it before.

And if she resists being thrown into prison or attempts to escape from prison, you shoot her. You are ultimately claiming the right to kill someone if their definition of "fair share" is different than yours.

Welcome to the real world. It's called an organized society.

So I guess we'll never lock up anyone, ever, for anything, because then we'd be claiming a right to kill someone because their morals are different than ours. Murderers, rapists... you're free to gol! Who am I to judge what is and isn't ok?

billyjoeallen

legendary

Activity: 1106

Merit: 1007

Hide your women

And, no, they DO need to be forced. They're benefiting from it so they're going to pay their share for it whether they like it or not.

So... Little old lady decides not to pay 'Her share'. You gonna hold a gun to her head and force her?

And what happens if she still says no?

Then we throw her old ass in prison for tax evasion. It happens on the daily, yet you seem like you've never heard of it before.

And if she resists being thrown into prison or attempts to escape from prison, you shoot her. You are ultimately claiming the right to kill someone if their definition of "fair share" is different than yours.

billyjoeallen

legendary

Activity: 1106

Merit: 1007

Hide your women

Free riders will always be a problem in any system. In a "progressive" system, you have a lot of poor free riders. In a corporatist system, you have a smaller number of rich free riders. In an anarcho-capitalist system, you would still have free riders, people who benefited from the assurance contracts others paid. The difference is that in ONLY an anarcho-capitalist system is there no systemic forced redistribution of wealth.

Even then, one could argue that differing definitions of what constitutes legitimate property created conglict that could become violent, but hey- utopia is not an option. The fact that AnCapistan wouldn't be perfect is no reason not to want it. It would be a heluva lot better than what we have now.

myrkul

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And, no, they DO need to be forced. They're benefiting from it so they're going to pay their share for it whether they like it or not.

So... Little old lady decides not to pay 'Her share'. You gonna hold a gun to her head and force her?

And what happens if she still says no?

Then we throw her old ass in prison for tax evasion. It happens on the daily, yet you seem like you've never heard of it before.

No, I am quite aware that it happens regularly. What I am saying is that is wrong.

AyeYo

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Activity: 154

Merit: 103

And, no, they DO need to be forced. They're benefiting from it so they're going to pay their share for it whether they like it or not.

So... Little old lady decides not to pay 'Her share'. You gonna hold a gun to her head and force her?

And what happens if she still says no?

Then we throw her old ass in prison for tax evasion. It happens on the daily, yet you seem like you've never heard of it before.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM