Topic: There are no real coins in bitcoin (Read 464 times)

bitcoin only exists in your head
it only exists in your mind

Basically, and also I think OP is trying to tell us that Bitcoin has no raw value backing behind like a fiat currency that doesn't have really any backing but faith from the people and the government. My question is what if we make coins that doubles as cold wallet to store bitcoin, does it count as real coin?

Thanks Franky, this will take some time but it will certainly help a lot. It is weekend, so it's perfect to start reading!

"S-so you are telling me that there is actually no fractions of golden circuit-themed coins inside my Smartphone ?"  

Seriously?! I use to think that the are varaibles that hold our value and the subtraction/addition is done depending on the transaction carried out. If so, then how does your bitcoin wallet read a specific value? Imo, it is stored and updated in a variable. Lol... Seems it's getting more confusing.

take any transaction in the blockchain and look at the raw data
this link i just found in a 3 second google search explains the transaction format.. though there are many explanations.. all saying the value is measured in satoshis
https://miro.medium.com/max/1560/1*BMwZ3vTqo6lZffflf94cow.png
https://klmoney.wordpress.com/bitcoin-dissecting-transactions-part-2-building-a-transaction-by-hand/

find a transaction
type it into here
https://nioctib.tech/
in the tab it shows GUI translation (human readable format).. click the raw tab to see the real data
find the green highlights halfway down.. thats the raw hex format of the output values

it requires unpadding them into int32 little endian
so.. save time simply put that hex into
https://www.scadacore.com/tools/programming-calculators/online-hex-converter/
and then look for the int32 little endian and you will not see bitcoins with 8 decimals but satoshi amounts

the hex format of output value is hex measured in satoshis

you can do it the manual way too. but hope i saved you some time by showing you tools to get the raw data and convert is easily

First of all I have no idea yet how this works. I said in a previous post, that I need to learn the code, and find out how exactly this is represented. I read so many replies, and each one has something contradicting with another. All of you seem to be early members and of course I would expect from you to understand Bitcoin better, however, I see a conflict in opinions and no actual representation of how this is displayed in the code.
I am sure you have the best of interests to help all of us understand, so if possible I would like to ask to point me where I can actually find out. The code for example. I will take my time and study it.
Looking at previous posts it is all about being offensive to the OP or other comments, yet each one is very different with the rest. Everyone is pointing something they think they know.
I take your comment is correct, but don't you think that most in bitcointalk are just saying things they may not know exactly if they are correct or not?

blockchain data. raw tx data, utxo data contains no btc
its all satoshi's

its the users GUI (graphic user interface) that converts the hard data of many sats into bucket terms like:
btc, mbtc ubts bits (depending on the user interface setting)

there is no melting down into smaller coin or atoms of coin.
sats are the unit of measure. and btc is just a graphic interpretation not a data unit

I think there is actually a coin and it goes far above from being mare signed transactions into the blockchaines as we view it. The world and the physical nature for which we know and take coin as has somehow clouded our thoughts on the nature for which we assume a coin to take and with bitcoin being intangible or codes, it very much disputes with its existence but truly, there is. There is bitcoin and I'm proud to won a few, lol.
So, the miners do there jobs of mining and confirming the transactions while, we just be about normal with our currency.

Bitcoin is actually more similar to real physical coins than to bank accounts where money is just a number in a database. I present you - the Coin Analogy. UTXOs are like coins, they can be melted together into a bigger "coin", or split into smaller "coin". Satoshi is like an atom of a coin - the smallest possible part. Addresses are not accounts, they are more like mailing addresses where you send coins, so one address can hold many coins.

Hey, thanks a lot for your answer. I just read it, and I am glad that sometimes I revisit previous posts to read more replies.
I am starting to understand this a little better right now but I still think I miss some important details. I had the wrong impression that public key and public address was one and the same.

I read the bitcoin wiki link but I am still not sure. I have to read and understand it completely first no matter my limited coding knowledge (it looks very detailed and I can understand most of it). For sure, I learned that the address is not on the blockchain and only on UI after hashing the public key with SHA256 and RIPEMD160 cryptography. I will need to learn the sequence of Opcodes to understand it better but it is a lot more clear to me now.

I also found this topic in the forum that explains it very well. How Bitcoin Addresses are generated? Understand the Math behind Bitcoin

OP “remotemass” is horribly incorrect.  On a quick skim, I see that only BrewMaster corrected OP’s misinformation.  Does no one else on this thread know how Bitcoin works!?

This is important for users to understand.  Coin control is an important skill for:

• Protecting your privacy.
• Optimizing your transactions to reduce fees.

Yes, you can split and merge coins.  Knowing how that works is basic Bitcoin competence!

Any decent wallet software has an interface to show you the list of coins in your wallet, and to let you manually select coins to build a transaction.

In technical terms, “coins” are also known as UTXOs (Unspent Transaction Outputs).

The key point hereby is the difference between Bitcoin’s UTXO model, and the account model used by Ethereum and some other currencies:


remotemass, stop spreading technical misinformation.  Go to Beginners & Help, learn how Bitcoin works, and don’t try to teach others until you know what you are talking about.  You haven’t learned anything in the past nine years, but it’s not too late to start!

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WRONG.  Each UTXO (“coin”) can be spent only once.  The balance of a UTXO can neither increase nor decrease.  That is why change addresses are used:  If the total amount of all the UTXOs used as inputs in a transaction exceeds the amount that you want to spend, then you need to send change back to yourself as a new UTXO (= a new coin).

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The part that you quoted is totally wrong.  If you seek knowledge, disregard what remotemass said.  Bitcoin addresses do NOT have balances.  Rather, the reverse is the case:  In simple terms, each coin usually contains the address which is allowed to spend it (the address that received the coin).  The coin can only be spent by the holder of the private key for that address.

That is the simple explanation—perhaps oversimplified.  The way that it actually works, each UTXO contains a spend script.  To spend the coin, information must be provided that makes the script evaluate to a true value (nonzero item on top of the stack).  The most common types of script simply require a digital signature from a public key which, when hashed, matches the hash contained within the script.  In the user interface, that hash is expressed as an address.  The blockchain does not contain any addresses; an address only is a UI feature.

That's exactly what I am pointing out: bitcoins are not a bunch of zeros and ones. Only key/pairs and transactions are numbers and code.

Some people do really think bitcoin coins are real digital coins. They think that bitcoin coins are very large random numbers with special proprieties that need to be mined and that you keep your coins safe and hidden in your bitcoin wallet. The truth is that the bitcoin wallet only protects and hides your private key of each bitcoin address.

There is no such thing as digital coins or tokens in the bitcoin protocol. You find the balance inferring it from the irreversible past transaction buried in the blockchain. Even satoshis only exist in the orchestration of transactions and their scripts. But thanks for making me aware that BTC is just a GUI feature. I was not much aware of that.

If by real you mean tangible property then you are right. There are no 'coins' in bitcoin but a bunch of 1s and 0s. But let me tell you this, is value something that is real and absolute? Like at the very least matter? Because if it is then the paradox of value shouldn't exist, yet of course, it does. So to say that bitcoin is an intangible coin without intrinsic value is like saying "gold is not valuable because value isn't something that physically exists in all things and is a basic construct humans made to indhce capitalism".

next revelation you have yet to make

in bitcoin transaction and bitcoins blockchain... there are no bitcoins/btc

..
transactions only use satoshi units of measure
its data is satoshis
no btc is found in the tx or block data

the users software takes the satoshi unit measure from the data and converts the number into a basket number ofbtc for user benefit.. its a gui representation, only seen in the user software display

As you said transactions in the blockchain that represents the bitcoin or a coin (as a unit). Of course, it isn't the coin that has a physical characteristics but it is still "real coin" that can be transacted digitally. And for us to be able to move these digital coins, for us to be able to make it possible to use, we need some blockchain transactions and miners. This shouldn't be put into some complication analogies. Its a digital coin.

My understanding of this has always been that it was just a token, representing the tx's that were made on the Blockchain. So you own the Private Key that gives you permission to transfer that token to another address. I have never looked at it as a digital coin... but rather the representation of Bitcoin addresses, where you have the access to shift it from one address to another. 

I think the general thinking behind this was that it was an actual digital coin, because it was just easier for the people who were used to fiat coins to conceptualize this as a digital coin. 

People who are not familiar with this will think that bitcoin is a tool to fool people. Yes, there is not any physical BTC. Also, there are not any BTC in the blockchain. Blockchain is just storage to record the transactions. Blockchain is tamper-proof so you cannot change it. Once it is validated it is there forever.

Ok. I understand now why this was posted. I think that I can't answer to that correctly thoguh. I would need knowledge of the Bitcoin code to be precise in my reply. However, it is seems that this is the outcome of the whole system of the Bitcoin software and the blockchain. The balances that have as source all the transactions permanently recorded and stored in the blocks.

That was what I was thinking too but the OP is just explaining the technical aspect of bitcoin and what it really is. Imagine in the near future, bitcoin is minted in coins that serves as wallet too and there is no way to extract them out of that coin but we know that it has X value based on what the minted coin says and then we finally did a full circle.