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Topic: There is a need for a Bitcoin Bank - page 2. (Read 5730 times)

full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
November 03, 2013, 03:10:02 PM
#27
...
You guys seem to entirely ignore all facets of Banking other than store of value, which clearly Bitcoin obsoletes, even though I didn't even mention that outdated form of banking in the OP and was specifically talking about banking as an investment to allow a real credit market to exist.

Have you read the four posts directly above yours?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
November 03, 2013, 02:49:11 PM
#26
Its like nobody in this entire thread even bothered to read my OP.

Clearly "normal" banking (everybody trusts a central authority to hold their money, and then this central authority tries to effectively siphon off as much wealth as possible without anybody noticing) isn't necessary for Bitcoin because a wallet is a way of storing your coins without any counterparty risk.

That's now what banking has to be, and that's not what I was talking about. There are other purposes of banks, other than the above. Banks help markets run by providing liquidity and credit. In other words, there's banking as an investment, too, not just banking as a store of value. Bitcoin does need banking as an investment, because those investments do useful things for an economy, and help Bitcoin run smoothly. Bitcoin doesn't need banking as a store of value, because Bitcoin already is a store of value. Bitcoin might need banking as a easy way of transferring money in small quantities (offchain transactions).

You guys seem to entirely ignore all facets of Banking other than store of value, which clearly Bitcoin obsoletes, even though I didn't even mention that outdated form of banking in the OP and was specifically talking about banking as an investment to allow a real credit market to exist.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
November 03, 2013, 11:04:14 AM
#25

A fractional reserve bitcoin bank is quite impossible, because no one would be able to insure deposits given the tremendous upward potential.  

An uninsured fractional reserve bank is just another risky investment vehicle, and doesn't provide the benefits you are aiming for.

A full reserve bank is possible, but has no way to make a profit or pay interest from this banking business.

That leaves various forms of accidental bitcoin account/wallet providers, who make a profit by being exchanges, advertising or gambling. Exactly what we already have.


"Do we need bitcoin banking" is a difficult question, but "do we have fractional reserve banking?" is ridiculously simple:
Uninsured fractional reserve banking did, does & will continue to exist in bitcoin.

Think back to Pirateat40 Savings & Loan.  Think of the various "insured" passthroughs (Patrick/Starfish).  Fast-forward to all of the Ukyo stuff.
Fractional reserve lending is profitable, that's how it came into being & that's why it exists.
Enlightened self-interest, free market & the invisible hand worked in consort to establish it as the central pillar of the modern financial system.
Enjoy Smiley


My point is that the insurance schemes of the past did not work. People should have learned it never will with bitcoin, at least not while still growing exponentially. Some of your examples are ludicrous, no one has ever checked or just seen the collateral pirateat40 or Patrick was supposed to have. That's not insurance, that's just plain lies to get people on a ponzi.

The passthroughs were billed as being secure, and people invested in them as such.  To be honest, i haven't bothered to check the financials of my bank before depositing money either, though most folks on this forum insist that fiat is a ponzi also.

Quote
In the so called modern financial world central banks have the ability to insure arbitrary losses by just printing new money. This is the reason people still trust banks with their (small) deposits despite the constant news.

This is not possible with bitcoin. Hence a deposit in a fractional reserve bitcoin bank must be seen as high risk investment, in particular more risky than just holding bitcoin. That's not what most people wish for when asking for banking services. And that's why I dispute calling them banks at all, and claim traditional banks are not viable with bitcoins yet. This may change when the market saturation is much higher.

I agree that it's riskier to invest money than to hold it, and technically the coin deposited in uninsured bitcoin banks is more accurately described as an investment rather than a deposit, but the distinction is pretty vague.  Insured banks are a relatively new development, and a central authority/entity/lender of last resort is not necessary for fractional reserve banking.  Bitcoin bankers could follow in the footsteps of conventional bankers, forming conglomerates/peer contracts/guild regulations to create a p2p insurance scheme.

The creepy thing is the very same schemes invented by mainstream bankers, the very ones which necessitated regulation, are being rediscovered/reanimated by bitcoin's new banker elite.  Both curious & disheartening to watch.

full member
Activity: 187
Merit: 100
November 03, 2013, 10:40:18 AM
#24

A fractional reserve bitcoin bank is quite impossible, because no one would be able to insure deposits given the tremendous upward potential.  

An uninsured fractional reserve bank is just another risky investment vehicle, and doesn't provide the benefits you are aiming for.

A full reserve bank is possible, but has no way to make a profit or pay interest from this banking business.

That leaves various forms of accidental bitcoin account/wallet providers, who make a profit by being exchanges, advertising or gambling. Exactly what we already have.


"Do we need bitcoin banking" is a difficult question, but "do we have fractional reserve banking?" is ridiculously simple:
Uninsured fractional reserve banking did, does & will continue to exist in bitcoin.

Think back to Pirateat40 Savings & Loan.  Think of the various "insured" passthroughs (Patrick/Starfish).  Fast-forward to all of the Ukyo stuff.
Fractional reserve lending is profitable, that's how it came into being & that's why it exists.
Enlightened self-interest, free market & the invisible hand worked in consort to establish it as the central pillar of the modern financial system.
Enjoy Smiley


My point is that the insurance schemes of the past did not work. People should have learned it never will with bitcoin, at least not while still growing exponentially. Some of your examples are ludicrous, no one has ever checked or just seen the collateral pirateat40 or Patrick was supposed to have. That's not insurance, that's just plain lies to get people on a ponzi.

In the so called modern financial world central banks have the ability to insure arbitrary losses by just printing new money. This is the reason people still trust banks with their (small) deposits despite the constant news.

This is not possible with bitcoin. Hence a deposit in a fractional reserve bitcoin bank must be seen as high risk investment, in particular more risky than just holding bitcoin. That's not what most people wish for when asking for banking services. And that's why I dispute calling them banks at all, and claim traditional banks are not viable with bitcoins yet. This may change when the market saturation is much higher.
full member
Activity: 210
Merit: 100
November 03, 2013, 09:59:49 AM
#23

A fractional reserve bitcoin bank is quite impossible, because no one would be able to insure deposits given the tremendous upward potential.  

An uninsured fractional reserve bank is just another risky investment vehicle, and doesn't provide the benefits you are aiming for.

A full reserve bank is possible, but has no way to make a profit or pay interest from this banking business.

That leaves various forms of accidental bitcoin account/wallet providers, who make a profit by being exchanges, advertising or gambling. Exactly what we already have.


"Do we need bitcoin banking" is a difficult question, but "do we have fractional reserve banking?" is ridiculously simple:
Uninsured fractional reserve banking did, does & will continue to exist in bitcoin.

Think back to Pirateat40 Savings & Loan.  Think of the various "insured" passthroughs (Patrick/Starfish).  Fast-forward to all of the Ukyo stuff.
Fractional reserve lending is profitable, that's how it came into being & that's why it exists.
Enlightened self-interest, free market & the invisible hand worked in consort to establish it as the central pillar of the modern financial system.
Enjoy Smiley
full member
Activity: 187
Merit: 100
November 03, 2013, 09:29:20 AM
#22

A fractional reserve bitcoin bank is quite impossible, because no one would be able to insure deposits given the tremendous upward potential. 

An uninsured fractional reserve bank is just another risky investment vehicle, and doesn't provide the benefits you are aiming for.

A full reserve bank is possible, but has no way to make a profit or pay interest from this banking business.

That leaves various forms of accidental bitcoin account/wallet providers, who make a profit by being exchanges, advertising or gambling. Exactly what we already have.
full member
Activity: 153
Merit: 100
November 03, 2013, 08:56:59 AM
#21
Yes we need a bank that can create out of thin air unlimited amounts of bitcoins each month  Wink

The problem is you can't do that with Bitcoins, same with gold Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 250
November 03, 2013, 08:34:08 AM
#20
What bitcoin needs is some brick and mortar locations. A place where I can go and drop off $100,000 in cash and get my bitcoins before I leave. Require multiple forms of ID maybe even a handprint. Require more informoration than banks and follow all the rules. Give them zero reason to shut it down.  I have been thinking about this for a bit now and reading up on the financial rules and regulations. This would be the moment bitcoin hits mainstream. Right now it is too hard to get bitcoins for USD. I have been trying for about 8 days now just to get a few coins. If people could fly into a major city and deposit cash and walk out with their coins, bitcoins would take off in price.
full member
Activity: 178
Merit: 100
November 03, 2013, 06:24:34 AM
#19
I think a sort of bitcoinbank isn't usefull. Why you need someone who "holds" your money (something you can yourself via a wallet) and steals money for their clients and others?
member
Activity: 168
Merit: 10
November 03, 2013, 03:38:58 AM
#18
Banks steals your labour. Bank system is a peace of shit that world does not need them.

Consider to watch below video.
http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?u=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DiFDe5kUUyT0%26feature%3Dshare&a=XdyjzhYwIKpxS3URZ54yzg
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
November 03, 2013, 03:33:52 AM
#17
MMM well if a bank is an eventuality, we may as well try and restructure them to be more decentralized but still be banks Cheesy

Yeah we can call it, I don't know, maybe use a computer term in the beginning and add coin to it. ByteCoin?

I was thinking more like a cold wallet server room, with a hot wallet for daily usage and the rest locked in cold storage inside a mainframe
I would call the place Reboot
(With Bob as the Guardian)
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
November 03, 2013, 03:30:40 AM
#16
MMM well if a bank is an eventuality, we may as well try and restructure them to be more decentralized but still be banks Cheesy

Yeah we can call it, I don't know, maybe use a computer term in the beginning and add coin to it. ByteCoin?
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1094
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
November 03, 2013, 03:14:24 AM
#15
MMM well if a bank is an eventuality, we may as well try and restructure them to be more decentralized but still be banks Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 854
Merit: 1000
November 03, 2013, 03:12:25 AM
#14
No bank for me, thank you!
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
November 03, 2013, 01:27:05 AM
#13
If people with large amounts of BTC want to lend, then they will be in a very powerful position to set borrowing rates and influence the economy (much like the central banks do now).  Will we be making global regulations to control the rates and policies that the large holders of BTC (essentially a new central bank) can apply to the economy?

No.

The free market will do that for you.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
November 02, 2013, 11:47:29 PM
#12
Sounds iffy, especially when it comes to fractional reserve methods.
full member
Activity: 226
Merit: 100
November 02, 2013, 10:45:31 PM
#11
Even if bank do accept Bitcoin, they will treat it like Gold and they just act as a middle man like BTC-e.com
full member
Activity: 202
Merit: 100
November 02, 2013, 09:40:40 PM
#10
Yes, we need a bitcoin bank... is mcxNow consider a bank since its giving interest? Smiley
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
November 02, 2013, 09:13:32 PM
#9
If people with large amounts of BTC want to lend, then they will be in a very powerful position to set borrowing rates and influence the economy (much like the central banks do now).  Will we be making global regulations to control the rates and policies that the large holders of BTC (essentially a new central bank) can apply to the economy?
member
Activity: 168
Merit: 10
November 02, 2013, 07:12:06 PM
#8
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