Great job guys! 
Topic: There is a way we can trade Bitcoin without getting shut down constantly - read (Read 20924 times)
July 07, 2013, 09:21:48 AM
Looks like the twins did this Great job guys!
Great job guys! May 21, 2013, 08:24:48 AM
Umm guys, I never spoke of evading any laws or jumping any regulations here. This has so far been a theoretical proposal, and due to the high requirement of funds, I have been unable to start the venture. Ironically, the majority of the funds needs to be used for legal aid, regulatory licenses and in general the legal framework.
May 21, 2013, 02:56:22 AM
inedible thanks for the defense but um.. yea.. nycsquire was talking about the OP.. meaning JackH .. not me
so nycSquire was asking if JackH would go to an attorney.
that being said. if/when i set up an exchange or anything involving fiat i will be FSA regulated.(or maybe wink wink i already am under my real life birth certified identity.. just not as this franky persona)
so nycSquire was asking if JackH would go to an attorney.
that being said. if/when i set up an exchange or anything involving fiat i will be FSA regulated.(or maybe wink wink i already am under my real life birth certified identity.. just not as this franky persona)
Sincere apologies to nycsquire - that'll teach me to jump in half-cocked.
FSA - So you're in the UK? I've had a quick look into FSA registration - I couldn't find many expenses involved as a money transmitter but I only spent a few hours looking. The only ones I have come across thus far are for registering each person involved and also for each place of business. You also need to be a fit and proper person. I don't suppose you know of any other costs?
May 20, 2013, 02:53:14 PM
Bump - getting some BTC bonds on the "real markets" would be great! It may not have been as successful in 2011 when this thread was started but now we could potentially get some VC funds behind it, get the proper licenses, and start issuing.
I have neither the funds nor the contacts to help organize this but I think it's a great idea.
I have neither the funds nor the contacts to help organize this but I think it's a great idea.
May 20, 2013, 02:41:08 PM
inedible thanks for the defense but um.. yea.. nycsquire was talking about the OP.. meaning JackH .. not me
so nycSquire was asking if JackH would go to an attorney.
that being said. if/when i set up an exchange or anything involving fiat i will be FSA regulated.(or maybe wink wink i already am under my real life birth certified identity.. just not as this franky persona)
so nycSquire was asking if JackH would go to an attorney.
that being said. if/when i set up an exchange or anything involving fiat i will be FSA regulated.(or maybe wink wink i already am under my real life birth certified identity.. just not as this franky persona)
May 20, 2013, 01:20:06 PM
not even sure why jack H thinks he is an expert.
he is obviously american. but even from his first post i had a few face palms reading his advice.
firstly
to avoid SEC/fincen he is right trade in europe.. but then your going to get hit by their eu regulations. which if you look at the history of american bitcoin exchanges trying to offer UK/EU services (covered by euro money laws) get shut down alot more harshly for not having the licences.
secondly
avoiding the licences of the country which the bank account exists in is not good legal advice.
thirdly
SEC/Fincen/EU regulations dont care about bitcoin. all they care about is the fiat side so concentrating on rebranding bitcoin as a bond wont change anything. because your still avoiding the fiat licences. so your still going to get caught.
my advice if you want to be a good exchange, be a expert money manager, with proof that you can with confidence handle large sums of fiat/bitcoin. and the best proof to achieve this is.... by putting your own money where your mouth is and pay for the fiat licences required by the law of the country you have the bank account set to.
if you want to legally avoid the liceneces/regulations. avoid FIAT. and only trade the different alt-currencies between each other.
now here is some actual practical advice.
knowing the licences are expensive here is the solution.
get 10 qualified and eager people that want to set up exchanges but cannot themselves afford the licences. combine your funds and form 1 business, and 9 subsiduaries.
for instance. bitcoin-central has licences for europe. bitinstant has licences for the US, and there is another exchange starting up in the UK which will have UK licences, all three partner up and form a official international company FIAT gateway, and then have their own business(which i already named) as the subsiduary business for each of their own area's of expertise.
he is obviously american. but even from his first post i had a few face palms reading his advice.
firstly
to avoid SEC/fincen he is right trade in europe.. but then your going to get hit by their eu regulations. which if you look at the history of american bitcoin exchanges trying to offer UK/EU services (covered by euro money laws) get shut down alot more harshly for not having the licences.
secondly
avoiding the licences of the country which the bank account exists in is not good legal advice.
thirdly
SEC/Fincen/EU regulations dont care about bitcoin. all they care about is the fiat side so concentrating on rebranding bitcoin as a bond wont change anything. because your still avoiding the fiat licences. so your still going to get caught.
my advice if you want to be a good exchange, be a expert money manager, with proof that you can with confidence handle large sums of fiat/bitcoin. and the best proof to achieve this is.... by putting your own money where your mouth is and pay for the fiat licences required by the law of the country you have the bank account set to.
if you want to legally avoid the liceneces/regulations. avoid FIAT. and only trade the different alt-currencies between each other.
now here is some actual practical advice.
knowing the licences are expensive here is the solution.
get 10 qualified and eager people that want to set up exchanges but cannot themselves afford the licences. combine your funds and form 1 business, and 9 subsiduaries.
for instance. bitcoin-central has licences for europe. bitinstant has licences for the US, and there is another exchange starting up in the UK which will have UK licences, all three partner up and form a official international company FIAT gateway, and then have their own business(which i already named) as the subsiduary business for each of their own area's of expertise.
There is good meat to this post.
To the OP: Please, just promise me that a good year prior to any money changes hands you speak to an attorney. Your plans for setting up an exchange are exciting and have potential. Your plans to evade regulatory scrutiny, though... are more worrisome.
Maybe I've missed something earlier on in the thread but nowhere do I see franky1 say he's setting up a business so speaking to an attorney isn't useful.
Nowhere does he mention evading regulatory scrutiny, in fact, quite the opposite.
Are we reading the same post?
May 20, 2013, 10:53:34 AM
not even sure why jack H thinks he is an expert.
he is obviously american. but even from his first post i had a few face palms reading his advice.
firstly
to avoid SEC/fincen he is right trade in europe.. but then your going to get hit by their eu regulations. which if you look at the history of american bitcoin exchanges trying to offer UK/EU services (covered by euro money laws) get shut down alot more harshly for not having the licences.
secondly
avoiding the licences of the country which the bank account exists in is not good legal advice.
thirdly
SEC/Fincen/EU regulations dont care about bitcoin. all they care about is the fiat side so concentrating on rebranding bitcoin as a bond wont change anything. because your still avoiding the fiat licences. so your still going to get caught.
my advice if you want to be a good exchange, be a expert money manager, with proof that you can with confidence handle large sums of fiat/bitcoin. and the best proof to achieve this is.... by putting your own money where your mouth is and pay for the fiat licences required by the law of the country you have the bank account set to.
if you want to legally avoid the liceneces/regulations. avoid FIAT. and only trade the different alt-currencies between each other.
now here is some actual practical advice.
knowing the licences are expensive here is the solution.
get 10 qualified and eager people that want to set up exchanges but cannot themselves afford the licences. combine your funds and form 1 business, and 9 subsiduaries.
for instance. bitcoin-central has licences for europe. bitinstant has licences for the US, and there is another exchange starting up in the UK which will have UK licences, all three partner up and form a official international company FIAT gateway, and then have their own business(which i already named) as the subsiduary business for each of their own area's of expertise.
he is obviously american. but even from his first post i had a few face palms reading his advice.
firstly
to avoid SEC/fincen he is right trade in europe.. but then your going to get hit by their eu regulations. which if you look at the history of american bitcoin exchanges trying to offer UK/EU services (covered by euro money laws) get shut down alot more harshly for not having the licences.
secondly
avoiding the licences of the country which the bank account exists in is not good legal advice.
thirdly
SEC/Fincen/EU regulations dont care about bitcoin. all they care about is the fiat side so concentrating on rebranding bitcoin as a bond wont change anything. because your still avoiding the fiat licences. so your still going to get caught.
my advice if you want to be a good exchange, be a expert money manager, with proof that you can with confidence handle large sums of fiat/bitcoin. and the best proof to achieve this is.... by putting your own money where your mouth is and pay for the fiat licences required by the law of the country you have the bank account set to.
if you want to legally avoid the liceneces/regulations. avoid FIAT. and only trade the different alt-currencies between each other.
now here is some actual practical advice.
knowing the licences are expensive here is the solution.
get 10 qualified and eager people that want to set up exchanges but cannot themselves afford the licences. combine your funds and form 1 business, and 9 subsiduaries.
for instance. bitcoin-central has licences for europe. bitinstant has licences for the US, and there is another exchange starting up in the UK which will have UK licences, all three partner up and form a official international company FIAT gateway, and then have their own business(which i already named) as the subsiduary business for each of their own area's of expertise.
There is good meat to this post.
To the OP: Please, just promise me that a good year prior to any money changes hands you speak to an attorney. Your plans for setting up an exchange are exciting and have potential. Your plans to evade regulatory scrutiny, though... are more worrisome.
May 20, 2013, 08:05:18 AM
A bitcoin is an Over the Counter (OTC) Credit-Swap (funded Credit Swap or fCS).
To you, it is only worth what the last guy sold it to you for and made off with. You funded "his" credit for it and the next guy (is assumed to be willing to) fund yours!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000
The reason Bitcoins/Altcoin tokens are legal is because they are OTC derivatives. Otherwise they would be a Ponzi scheme.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1832923
The markets for them are not "exchanges", they are simply marketplaces.
Stop pretending that BTC is a national socialist "currency" backed by a national socialist economy, it is not.
To you, it is only worth what the last guy sold it to you for and made off with. You funded "his" credit for it and the next guy (is assumed to be willing to) fund yours!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_Futures_Modernization_Act_of_2000
The reason Bitcoins/Altcoin tokens are legal is because they are OTC derivatives. Otherwise they would be a Ponzi scheme.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1832923
The markets for them are not "exchanges", they are simply marketplaces.
Stop pretending that BTC is a national socialist "currency" backed by a national socialist economy, it is not.
May 20, 2013, 06:42:30 AM
not even sure why jack H thinks he is an expert.
he is obviously american. but even from his first post i had a few face palms reading his advice.
firstly
to avoid SEC/fincen he is right trade in europe.. but then your going to get hit by their eu regulations. which if you look at the history of american bitcoin exchanges trying to offer UK/EU services (covered by euro money laws) get shut down alot more harshly for not having the licences.
secondly
avoiding the licences of the country which the bank account exists in is not good legal advice.
thirdly
SEC/Fincen/EU regulations dont care about bitcoin. all they care about is the fiat side so concentrating on rebranding bitcoin as a bond wont change anything. because your still avoiding the fiat licences. so your still going to get caught.
my advice if you want to be a good exchange, be a expert money manager, with proof that you can with confidence handle large sums of fiat/bitcoin. and the best proof to achieve this is.... by putting your own money where your mouth is and pay for the fiat licences required by the law of the country you have the bank account set to.
if you want to legally avoid the liceneces/regulations. avoid FIAT. and only trade the different alt-currencies between each other.
now here is some actual practical advice.
knowing the licences are expensive here is the solution.
get 10 qualified and eager people that want to set up exchanges but cannot themselves afford the licences. combine your funds and form 1 business, and 9 subsiduaries.
for instance. bitcoin-central has licences for europe. bitinstant has licences for the US, and there is another exchange starting up in the UK which will have UK licences, all three partner up and form a official international company FIAT gateway, and then have their own business(which i already named) as the subsiduary business for each of their own area's of expertise.
he is obviously american. but even from his first post i had a few face palms reading his advice.
firstly
to avoid SEC/fincen he is right trade in europe.. but then your going to get hit by their eu regulations. which if you look at the history of american bitcoin exchanges trying to offer UK/EU services (covered by euro money laws) get shut down alot more harshly for not having the licences.
secondly
avoiding the licences of the country which the bank account exists in is not good legal advice.
thirdly
SEC/Fincen/EU regulations dont care about bitcoin. all they care about is the fiat side so concentrating on rebranding bitcoin as a bond wont change anything. because your still avoiding the fiat licences. so your still going to get caught.
my advice if you want to be a good exchange, be a expert money manager, with proof that you can with confidence handle large sums of fiat/bitcoin. and the best proof to achieve this is.... by putting your own money where your mouth is and pay for the fiat licences required by the law of the country you have the bank account set to.
if you want to legally avoid the liceneces/regulations. avoid FIAT. and only trade the different alt-currencies between each other.
now here is some actual practical advice.
knowing the licences are expensive here is the solution.
get 10 qualified and eager people that want to set up exchanges but cannot themselves afford the licences. combine your funds and form 1 business, and 9 subsiduaries.
for instance. bitcoin-central has licences for europe. bitinstant has licences for the US, and there is another exchange starting up in the UK which will have UK licences, all three partner up and form a official international company FIAT gateway, and then have their own business(which i already named) as the subsiduary business for each of their own area's of expertise.
May 18, 2013, 04:14:02 PM
This can only be done with some serious money behind it. The best approach would obviously be to start incorporating a company and getting it listed on an exchange. Pink Sheets in the USA or equivalent in Europe such as AIM in UK would work quite well. But starting this without at least 250.000$ or more would be suicide.
May 17, 2013, 01:56:13 AM
in currency if a bond is bought in dollars and paid in dollars its a zero coupon bond... if the dollar buys up a btc denominated bond it's called a repo or reverse repo.i think ...if theres a repurchase provision in the bond... ie accepting dollars (cash) for startup rather than BTCowners buying up btc bonds to get started... so there could be either dollar startup or get btc already owned to buy into new btc startups using only btc
May 09, 2013, 05:08:52 AM
This is a great idea, has any progress been made? Do you have a team working on this?
April 29, 2013, 04:46:12 AM
I am going to push this article up as I think there are grounds for debating this further, ie. the price shows muscles. I am still open to do this, contact me if interested in pushing BTC to the credit markets.
BUMP
April 13, 2013, 11:50:07 AM
I'm currently thinking about executing this idea and created a blog bitcoinfund.ch to publish my ideas, so anyone can track its progress.
April 05, 2013, 05:00:51 PM
yep count me in!
April 05, 2013, 02:20:20 PM
I am going to push this article up as I think there are grounds for debating this further, ie. the price shows muscles. I am still open to do this, contact me if interested in pushing BTC to the credit markets.
July 29, 2012, 09:37:16 PM
If anyone in London wants to get together for this, lets do so. I am still interested to see where we can bring Bitcoin in relation to the public credit markets.
Jack, I'll make sure to PM you the week of the conference to try and meet up wrt. this topic.
July 29, 2012, 08:24:30 PM
There's one thing that's unclear to me how it should work: how would the pegging itself work?
Very simple. When people buy bonds, you use that money to buy Bitcoins. When people sell bonds, you buy Bitcoins with the money.Quote
Let's say some pension fund throws 10 million USD at the bond, which is currently priced 8.89 USD/bond because it's pegged to BTC. Our company would then have to buy 1.125 million BTC for 10 million USD, which is clearly not possible. Even for smaller purchases this does not work.
Correct, so you can't issue that many bonds. You can only issue as many bonds as you can obtain Bitcoins. In the process of performing this transaction, the price of Bitcoins will go up, meaning that you have fewer bonds left to issue. One easy way to do it is to obtain the Bitcoins over time and then auction the bonds.Quote
As suggested earlier in this thread, the company might have to buy some BTC in advance. But then the volume would have to be somehow limited on the real-world exchange handling the bond. For example the company could try to always keep 21,000 BTC in it's coffers and only offer 21,000 shares of the bond on the real-world exchange. Once some of them are bought, the stash of BTC will be re-filled and the bond-price adjusted?
Mostly correct, except the bond-price has already adjusted itself.Quote
Can the bond-price even be adjusted/fixed by the issuing company?
The company simply states that it's pegged to the price of Bitcoin. Theoretically, they should publish how the pegging is done (Mt. Gox daily average?) and how redemption works (the price as of what time?) and so on.These are all solvable problems. I'm just not sure that it actually gets you anything because you have to charge for your services and you have to "rig" things to protect yourself from exchange rate losses.
July 29, 2012, 08:12:37 PM
If anyone in London wants to get together for this, lets do so. I am still interested to see where we can bring Bitcoin in relation to the public credit markets.
July 23, 2012, 03:26:06 PM
Damn, not enough time to make a visa...
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