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Topic: There is no price discovery... (Read 3578 times)

full member
Activity: 350
Merit: 100
April 16, 2013, 06:00:36 PM
#44
The BTC market is tiny compared to most other markets, if someone have put in $50.000 into the market, the would have had 1000 BTC if they bought at $50. They can then put out a sale offer that is slightly above the going rate with one account, and then buy that from the another account. This will make it seem like the market goes up.

This might be done in several steps over a small timeframe. At the same time a high buy offer is put in to illustrate that there is a lot of demand. When enough people have put in orders to buy around the new price, the high buy offer is retracted, and are replaced with a large sell order.

They make a few % surplus every time, and since the input is high, it quickly adds up.

Wait, if I'm reading that right, this is pretty much what I was doing (sans multiple accounts) to profit from back and forth swings. You're calling that manipulation?? Welcome to the free market!

Watch the order book, any time an order above ~170 appears on the buy side or ~300 on the sell side, it will shortly vanish. They're only there to get speculators moving their bids/asks in front, to push the market up/down.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
One bitcoin to rule them all!
April 16, 2013, 05:12:43 PM
#43
Glad I listened to you guys.  Price is down somewhat from earlier.  It's mostly bots putting in tiny bids to drive it down, right?  Someone may hate me for asking, but is there any way for exchanges like bitfloor/Mt Gox to stop the manipulation? I understand the need for bots to an extent, but they're being abused. 

The few financially minded people I have spoken to about bitcoin say they love the concept, but price manipulation is just too easy and it will never be effective as a currency or way to trade until this can be stopped.

Otherwise, they said they would be all for it.
They also questioned, "What is bitcoin's true value?" which I don't think there is an answer to, yet.  I heard the number $3,333 thrown out there once, but can't find the thread to see who said it and what their background is to determine if it was a legitimate guess or not.

It's also the pump and dump method.

The BTC market is tiny compared to most other markets, if someone have put in $50.000 into the market, the would have had 1000 BTC if they bought at $50. They can then put out a sale offer that is slightly above the going rate with one account, and then buy that from the another account. This will make it seem like the market goes up.

This might be done in several steps over a small timeframe. At the same time a high buy offer is put in to illustrate that there is a lot of demand. When enough people have put in orders to buy around the new price, the high buy offer is retracted, and are replaced with a large sell order.

They make a few % surplus every time, and since the input is high, it quickly adds up.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
April 16, 2013, 03:59:18 PM
#42


Price manipulation can only be stopped by increasing the "market cap". (I know, not the best term, but people understand what I mean).  The fact is, this market is too tiny to not be vulnerable to whales.  That said, every whale is taking big risks and will likely be washed out by a bigger whale at some point.

very well put.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
April 16, 2013, 03:19:42 PM
#41
Glad I listened to you guys.  Price is down somewhat from earlier.  It's mostly bots putting in tiny bids to drive it down, right?  Someone may hate me for asking, but is there any way for exchanges like bitfloor/Mt Gox to stop the manipulation? I understand the need for bots to an extent, but they're being abused. 

The few financially minded people I have spoken to about bitcoin say they love the concept, but price manipulation is just too easy and it will never be effective as a currency or way to trade until this can be stopped.

Otherwise, they said they would be all for it.
They also questioned, "What is bitcoin's true value?" which I don't think there is an answer to, yet.  I heard the number $3,333 thrown out there once, but can't find the thread to see who said it and what their background is to determine if it was a legitimate guess or not.

Price manipulation can only be stopped by increasing the "market cap". (I know, not the best term, but people understand what I mean).  The fact is, this market is too tiny to not be vulnerable to whales.  That said, every whale is taking big risks and will likely be washed out by a bigger whale at some point.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
April 16, 2013, 03:00:16 PM
#40
Inefficient market is inefficient.

Just the way we like it isn't it?  Wink
cul
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
April 16, 2013, 02:42:45 PM
#39
lol @ manipulation.

welcome to the market boys & girls.
member
Activity: 80
Merit: 10
April 16, 2013, 01:57:00 PM
#38
More power to them as long as they get it up into 1000s... Lol...

Not before I buy back in!!  >o< 

hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
... it only gets better...
April 16, 2013, 01:52:39 PM
#37
More power to them as long as they get it up into 1000s... Lol...
member
Activity: 80
Merit: 10
April 16, 2013, 01:50:56 PM
#36
Glad I listened to you guys.  Price is down somewhat from earlier.  It's mostly bots putting in tiny bids to drive it down, right?  Someone may hate me for asking, but is there any way for exchanges like bitfloor/Mt Gox to stop the manipulation? I understand the need for bots to an extent, but they're being abused. 

The few financially minded people I have spoken to about bitcoin say they love the concept, but price manipulation is just too easy and it will never be effective as a currency or way to trade until this can be stopped.

Otherwise, they said they would be all for it.
They also questioned, "What is bitcoin's true value?" which I don't think there is an answer to, yet.  I heard the number $3,333 thrown out there once, but can't find the thread to see who said it and what their background is to determine if it was a legitimate guess or not.
member
Activity: 183
Merit: 10
April 16, 2013, 01:22:50 PM
#35
The market is just too inefficient compared to others, in the latest occurences mostly.
legendary
Activity: 960
Merit: 1028
Spurn wild goose chases. Seek that which endures.
April 16, 2013, 01:14:09 PM
#34
If they're manipulating the price action, they're either getting fleeced by arbitrageurs or by market makers.

It's no way to run a profitable exchange.
member
Activity: 80
Merit: 10
April 16, 2013, 12:43:38 PM
#33

Hey dreamscape, should have bought last night when it was $50 ;-)

If you don't know much about the market, your best bet is to buy and hold, and definitely not more than you can afford to lose. Some folks think that we are on our way to single digits and bitcoin is on its way out and we should all go back to Fiat. Some folks think we will stay in the $50-100 range for a while before going back up again, and some folks think the next rally is days away.

Learn about the fundamentals of bitcoin, its uses and applications, and the corruption in the current system of fiat banksters. If that inspires you and you believe in bitcoin, buy at the current price and hold. Long-term, this hasn't failed anyone yet with bitcoin. Your other option is to "speculate" i.e. learn as much as you can about the price movement, keep up with news, but at this point it's anybody's guess as to what happens in the next week or two.

Haha, I was watching it like a hawk when it hit >50 and spiked back up suddenly. I think I went into shock and had no clue what to do, so I fell asleep with the live graphs running and woke up to what I considered "a pretty steady rise".  lol

Been speculating heavily since before the drop and it didn't do me a bit of good b/c I didn't go with my gut. But in the long run, I don't want to be a speculator.
I do believe in the principle and am trying my best to get behind it.  Guess I'm sort of weak, but with these daily excercises maybe I can have strong hands before long.

Still not sure if the price will drop significantly again before the steady climb we are all hoping for, guess no one knows.  With the info I have gathered today, there is a good chance it will drop at least a bit before it stabalizes. 
Think I will wait for a slight drop, then buy in with all the fiat in my account and hold.  If it goes down, I just won't use the coin until it meets my original price again. But I like to think it will go up when the next rally hits and continue a steady climb.

Meanwhile, I guess it's time to study terms and acronyms so that I can at least talk the talk and impress....some idiot.  Thanks again.

member
Activity: 80
Merit: 10
April 16, 2013, 12:26:48 PM
#32
Thanks for the advice, guys.  
I was trying to save money and buy on the cheap end, but this is ridiculous; you're right.  I'm just going to wait.

I really enjoy this forum and all the different opinions and voices of experience.
Still trying to figure out who is who, but it's nice having it to sift through and even the perceived idiots here aren't half as bad as main stream media's goons.

Bitcoin tabs are down and I am going to go eat, finally. lol

Take it easy, guys.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1037
Trusted Bitcoiner
April 16, 2013, 12:22:09 PM
#30
given the nature & history of the bitcoin, I think all good speculators were expecting these wild swings.

hopefully in 10 years time, bitcoin is trading in the 5,000-10,000$ range and the yearly swings are down to 30 - 50%

in 50 years,  bitcoin will be making new all time highs all day everyday and the sentiment will be that it simply will NEVER crash gaining 1-5% value per year with no end in sight.

yup its going to get really boring when people are paying taxes in bitcoin...  Cool
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
April 16, 2013, 12:18:19 PM
#29
Wait, is this another Occupy Wall St. Bear thread with someone blaming Gox on all of our troubles?  Grin Grin Grin Aren't there like 10 threads like this every day? You don't belong here, you belong on the Alex Jones youtube channel fighting with trolls in the comment threads.

Hey dreamscape, should have bought last night when it was $50 ;-)

If you don't know much about the market, your best bet is to buy and hold, and definitely not more than you can afford to lose. Some folks think that we are on our way to single digits and bitcoin is on its way out and we should all go back to Fiat. Some folks think we will stay in the $50-100 range for a while before going back up again, and some folks think the next rally is days away.

Learn about the fundamentals of bitcoin, its uses and applications, and the corruption in the current system of fiat banksters. If that inspires you and you believe in bitcoin, buy at the current price and hold. Long-term, this hasn't failed anyone yet with bitcoin. Your other option is to "speculate" i.e. learn as much as you can about the price movement, keep up with news, but at this point it's anybody's guess as to what happens in the next week or two.
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
April 16, 2013, 12:13:02 PM
#28
im out. you all have a great day Grin
hero member
Activity: 728
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April 16, 2013, 12:11:15 PM
#27
Uncle Gox will look out for us.  Grin

buyers are drying up. people are smartening up. why throw good money after bad
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
April 16, 2013, 12:06:19 PM
#26
buyers are drying up. people are smartening up. why throw good money after bad
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1147
The revolution will be monetized!
April 16, 2013, 12:02:58 PM
#25
Why do people always want a bad guy? There is always a secret society or aliens or a manipulator pulling the strings. If only the world was that interesting.
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