Of course this exchange can be manipulated. The 1920s NYSE was manipulated massively and it had a much higher relative market cap. The NYSE is highly regulated because of a full range of shenanigans that occurred in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_manipulation
There have been allegations of phony volume or churning at exchanges/brokerages more recently than the 1920s....
http://algotradingindia.blogspot.com/2011/09/fake-volume-at-united-stock-exchange.html
http://www.business-standard.com/article/markets/sebi-warns-use-on-negligence-112051200011_1.html
I haven't been watching Gox lately. In the past I have certainly noticed bizarre pricing behavior. The wheel need not be reinvented, these types of things are as old as the exchanges themselves.
Topic: They/he/she/it is doing it again (Read 2354 times)
imo Everybody that buys their first bitcoin should get a little info about the advantages of holding as the best strategy as long as you're not used to the fast changing markets and all the speculation going on .[...]
perhaps some kind of info email with the registration or a locked thread would be good.
surely it's everybody's decision when to sell and buy but at least some recommendations for speculating and how to react to some market events would be really helpful. [...]
It would be really cool to push such a dogma-like thread (it could evolve to a little info brochure pdf) for everyone to first read before freaking out on the forums about the values changing every hours.
any feedback?
perhaps some kind of info email with the registration or a locked thread would be good.
surely it's everybody's decision when to sell and buy but at least some recommendations for speculating and how to react to some market events would be really helpful. [...]
It would be really cool to push such a dogma-like thread (it could evolve to a little info brochure pdf) for everyone to first read before freaking out on the forums about the values changing every hours.
any feedback?
Well, educating people is always a good idea, but remember that we have people here who are experienced, have been trading or using bitcoin for years, and are regarded as experts. Yet many of these very people still have tunnel vision syndrome and for the past week have been posting "Bitcoin crashing/bitcoin is dead" everytime the price moves down $10, and "OMG Rally starting, sky high ATHs ahead" whenever the price moves up $10.
Some people just never learn
As for market making, one of the recent Keiser Reports had Max talking about the market making function of exchanges and how "real" markets perform functions very similar to what was proposed by posters in this thread. I.E. they have a stash of the very stock they are selling, and place orders as they see fit to "keep things real." If you don't think this is a good idea, simply don't buy on an exchange or don't participate in trading that particular commodity/currency/stock/etc. If you feel a market is being manipulated in a way that you don't agree with, no one's forcing you to participate in that market.
perhaps you're right and this suggestion was a bit over the top for the bitcointalk-forums (especially in the speculation section) and would be at a better place directly at the exchanges.
I just thought with the ongoing spreading into the average john doe- mass consumer market every user of bitcoin would be better off with some instruction manual at the start.
But when bitcoin will have succesfully reached that far the value will probably be relatively stable and not that crazy rollercoaster ride we experience in recent times.
thanks for the feedback.
imo Everybody that buys their first bitcoin should get a little info about the advantages of holding as the best strategy as long as you're not used to the fast changing markets and all the speculation going on .[...]
perhaps some kind of info email with the registration or a locked thread would be good.
surely it's everybody's decision when to sell and buy but at least some recommendations for speculating and how to react to some market events would be really helpful. [...]
It would be really cool to push such a dogma-like thread (it could evolve to a little info brochure pdf) for everyone to first read before freaking out on the forums about the values changing every hours.
any feedback?
perhaps some kind of info email with the registration or a locked thread would be good.
surely it's everybody's decision when to sell and buy but at least some recommendations for speculating and how to react to some market events would be really helpful. [...]
It would be really cool to push such a dogma-like thread (it could evolve to a little info brochure pdf) for everyone to first read before freaking out on the forums about the values changing every hours.
any feedback?
Well, educating people is always a good idea, but remember that we have people here who are experienced, have been trading or using bitcoin for years, and are regarded as experts. Yet many of these very people still have tunnel vision syndrome and for the past week have been posting "Bitcoin crashing/bitcoin is dead" everytime the price moves down $10, and "OMG Rally starting, sky high ATHs ahead" whenever the price moves up $10.
Some people just never learn
As for market making, one of the recent Keiser Reports had Max talking about the market making function of exchanges and how "real" markets perform functions very similar to what was proposed by posters in this thread. I.E. they have a stash of the very stock they are selling, and place orders as they see fit to "keep things real." If you don't think this is a good idea, simply don't buy on an exchange or don't participate in trading that particular commodity/currency/stock/etc. If you feel a market is being manipulated in a way that you don't agree with, no one's forcing you to participate in that market.
No, people would still be welcome to panic sell, if that's what floats their boat...
But when they are choosing an order, they can choose a normal order, or one of the innovative options (with suitably funny names... "catch a falling knife?"). If the orders ever executed, you'd probably get a good deal, and if they were popular they would help balance the market.
I'm gonna build this into my project....
But when they are choosing an order, they can choose a normal order, or one of the innovative options (with suitably funny names... "catch a falling knife?"). If the orders ever executed, you'd probably get a good deal, and if they were popular they would help balance the market.
I'm gonna build this into my project....
I think more innovative tools provided by the exchanges would help against panic selling.
For example, how about an option to have buy orders that are re-placed automatically 10-20% below the current price every 20 minutes? Same for sell orders -- 20% above the current price, and re-placed every 20 mins.
Bitstamp's "instant order" is a similar process, but they just reposition your bid to the current price every 10 mins.
It would need some tweaking, but they might be popular options, and would help to smooth very fast fluctuations.
.... Actually, I'm going to build this now.
For example, how about an option to have buy orders that are re-placed automatically 10-20% below the current price every 20 minutes? Same for sell orders -- 20% above the current price, and re-placed every 20 mins.
Bitstamp's "instant order" is a similar process, but they just reposition your bid to the current price every 10 mins.
It would need some tweaking, but they might be popular options, and would help to smooth very fast fluctuations.
.... Actually, I'm going to build this now.
I think any sort of regulation is as the saying I hate goes, "A slippery slope". The free market needs to be free. To control selling more than is already done via cashing out is to accept Bitcoin is just a speculation vehicle. A currency should be able to stand without such vices. I think we all love Bitcoin but, it needs to keep passing the litmus test. If it is an experiment meant to work it will in time.
He's not proposing regulation. In fact, he's proposing a market solution. For the record, I'm also anti-regulation. Everyone should always be free to do whatever the hell they want with their coins, for now and forevermore.
I suppose you are right as the tool would obviously be opt-in. I just think once you start trying to control panic selling with such tools there could be endless tweaks and more tools. For a thread that was just talking about manipulation such tools need to be well thought out to not introduce an opportunity for manipulation.
I think more innovative tools provided by the exchanges would help against panic selling.
For example, how about an option to have buy orders that are re-placed automatically 10-20% below the current price every 20 minutes? Same for sell orders -- 20% above the current price, and re-placed every 20 mins.
Bitstamp's "instant order" is a similar process, but they just reposition your bid to the current price every 10 mins.
It would need some tweaking, but they might be popular options, and would help to smooth very fast fluctuations.
.... Actually, I'm going to build this now.
For example, how about an option to have buy orders that are re-placed automatically 10-20% below the current price every 20 minutes? Same for sell orders -- 20% above the current price, and re-placed every 20 mins.
Bitstamp's "instant order" is a similar process, but they just reposition your bid to the current price every 10 mins.
It would need some tweaking, but they might be popular options, and would help to smooth very fast fluctuations.
.... Actually, I'm going to build this now.
I think any sort of regulation is as the saying I hate goes, "A slipper slope". The free market needs to be free. To control selling more than is already done via cashing out is to accept Bitcoin is just a speculation vehicle. A currency should be able to stand without such vices. I think we all love Bitcoin but, it needs to keep passing the litmus test. If it is an experiment meant to work it will in time.
He's not proposing regulation. In fact, he's proposing a market solution. For the record, I'm also anti-regulation. Everyone should always be free to do whatever the hell they want with their coins, for now and forevermore.
I think more innovative tools provided by the exchanges would help against panic selling.
For example, how about an option to have buy orders that are re-placed automatically 10-20% below the current price every 20 minutes? Same for sell orders -- 20% above the current price, and re-placed every 20 mins.
Bitstamp's "instant order" is a similar process, but they just reposition your bid to the current price every 10 mins.
It would need some tweaking, but they might be popular options, and would help to smooth very fast fluctuations.
.... Actually, I'm going to build this now.
For example, how about an option to have buy orders that are re-placed automatically 10-20% below the current price every 20 minutes? Same for sell orders -- 20% above the current price, and re-placed every 20 mins.
Bitstamp's "instant order" is a similar process, but they just reposition your bid to the current price every 10 mins.
It would need some tweaking, but they might be popular options, and would help to smooth very fast fluctuations.
.... Actually, I'm going to build this now.
I think any sort of regulation is as the saying I hate goes, "A slippery slope". The free market needs to be free. To control selling more than is already done via cashing out is to accept Bitcoin is just a speculation vehicle. A currency should be able to stand without such vices. I think we all love Bitcoin but, it needs to keep passing the litmus test. If it is an experiment meant to work it will in time. I think too many people are impatient and worried about the price instead of the validity.
I think more innovative tools provided by the exchanges would help against panic selling.
For example, how about an option to have buy orders that are re-placed automatically 10-20% below the current price every 20 minutes? Same for sell orders -- 20% above the current price, and re-placed every 20 mins.
Bitstamp's "instant order" is a similar process, but they just reposition your bid to the current price every 10 mins.
It would need some tweaking, but they might be popular options, and would help to smooth very fast fluctuations.
.... Actually, I'm going to build this now.
For example, how about an option to have buy orders that are re-placed automatically 10-20% below the current price every 20 minutes? Same for sell orders -- 20% above the current price, and re-placed every 20 mins.
Bitstamp's "instant order" is a similar process, but they just reposition your bid to the current price every 10 mins.
It would need some tweaking, but they might be popular options, and would help to smooth very fast fluctuations.
.... Actually, I'm going to build this now.
There is no "we" here. You are fucking alone with your coins, fiat, fear and greed. Here is nobody else.
true
+1
although I'm bored after seeing more than 100 of these threads (kind of feels like that after some time).
it's always good to steadily inform more newcomers about the danger of panic-selling.
imo Everybody that buys their first bitcoin should get a little info about the advantages of holding as the best strategy as long as you're not used to the fast changing markets and all the speculation going on.
sell to strength is also really a good advice how to counter panic-selling!
perhaps some kind of info email with the registration or a locked thread would be good.
surely it's everybody's decision when to sell and buy but at least some recommendations for speculating and how to react to some market events would be really helpful.
I registered one week ago and before I have read quite a lot of threads for 2 months to get the hang of it how everything works in the bitcoin ecosystem.
It would be really cool to push such a dogma-like thread (it could evolve to a little info brochure pdf) for everyone to first read before freaking out on the forums about the values changing every hours.
Most people get the system of bitcoin at the start but nearly nobody but for longtime bitcoiners and guys with financial market knowledge has a clue what's up with all the trading and speculating on the markets.
That is just my impression after some time, i could be wrong but it sounds like a good idea to me.
Perhaps it's naive to give infos how to behave to a completely liberated market, but at least it would prevent some people from panic-selling.
any feedback?
although I'm bored after seeing more than 100 of these threads (kind of feels like that after some time).
it's always good to steadily inform more newcomers about the danger of panic-selling.
imo Everybody that buys their first bitcoin should get a little info about the advantages of holding as the best strategy as long as you're not used to the fast changing markets and all the speculation going on.
sell to strength is also really a good advice how to counter panic-selling!
perhaps some kind of info email with the registration or a locked thread would be good.
surely it's everybody's decision when to sell and buy but at least some recommendations for speculating and how to react to some market events would be really helpful.
I registered one week ago and before I have read quite a lot of threads for 2 months to get the hang of it how everything works in the bitcoin ecosystem.
It would be really cool to push such a dogma-like thread (it could evolve to a little info brochure pdf) for everyone to first read before freaking out on the forums about the values changing every hours.
Most people get the system of bitcoin at the start but nearly nobody but for longtime bitcoiners and guys with financial market knowledge has a clue what's up with all the trading and speculating on the markets.
That is just my impression after some time, i could be wrong but it sounds like a good idea to me.
Perhaps it's naive to give infos how to behave to a completely liberated market, but at least it would prevent some people from panic-selling.
any feedback?
Will the crash affect my ability to purchase things online with my bitcoins?
It will if your favorite Bitcoin-using merchants aren't using some instant exchange and gets caught holding a bag of Bitcoins worth half of what they were when people bought their merchandise with them for the second time in a month. If those merchants are good businessmen and not a Bitcoin fanatics, it could definitely effect your ability to purchase things online (i.e., they'll just drop it). We've got a lot of new merchants accepting Bitcoin now.
You want the same thing as the supposed manipulator, and Gox has supposedly been working on the solution to the DDoS, if they implement what they said they would they should be much harder to DDoS.
I want the same thing as the manipulator? You mean I want the price to go up? Well, here's the thing: that's not what the manipulator wants. He/she only wants the price to go up X amount. Then it's kill the coin, buy up, sell slowly toward the top, rinse, repeat.
One of the main reasons I want the price to go up is so Bitcoin can't be manipulated by every 2-bit millionaire.
It can't. It would take a team with $100s of millions. If even such a group existed their interest is to milk to cow for as long as possible. I think the process of cashing out makes this much less likely for a group to be able to do this. Even with verification MtGox only allows $50k per month in withdrawls. If such a group existed they would be getting paid in Bitcoin and thus inclined to keep the price propped up until it succeeds (on it's own two feet).
I know there are larger exchanges with $10k minimums but, most trades are still happening at MtGox.
There is no "we" here. You are fucking alone with your coins, fiat, fear and greed. Here is nobody else.
This looks nothing like it is being manipulated. Volumes are huge. There is absolutely no evidence of the price being manipulated upwards.
And I fear Bitcoin's hopes of being a currency may not survive a third major crash.
Will the crash affect my ability to purchase things online with my bitcoins?
Even as someone still slightly bearish without further news, I have no worries about a third crash. If $266-$55 didn't scare everyone off, the a 3rd crash sure as hell isn't going to. There are things that could cause it not to survive but, they are mostly lower risks and knowns by anyone with big money.
And I fear Bitcoin's hopes of being a currency may not survive a third major crash.
Will the crash affect my ability to purchase things online with my bitcoins?
I don't think the price is being pumped up again. It's just currently returning back to where it should be in the $90-$110 range. $50 was an overshoot to the downside induced by widespread fear and panic. I think we will start to begin to stabilize around $100 starting next week.
I hope you're right and I'm wrong.
You want the same thing as the supposed manipulator, and Gox has supposedly been working on the solution to the DDoS, if they implement what they said they would they should be much harder to DDoS.
I want the same thing as the manipulator? You mean I want the price to go up? Well, here's the thing: that's not what the manipulator wants. He/she only wants the price to go up X amount. Then it's kill the coin, buy up, sell slowly toward the top, rinse, repeat.
One of the main reasons I want the price to go up is so Bitcoin can't be manipulated by every 2-bit millionaire.
I don't think the price is being pumped up again. It's just currently returning back to where it should be in the $90-$110 range. $50 was an overshoot to the downside induced by widespread fear and panic. I think we will start to begin to stabilize around $100 starting next week.
I have a better idea: Sell to strength. For people who are worried about seeing their portfolio become HUGE and then collapsing, just sell to strength. Make a rule you are comfortable with - perhaps every time price doubles, sell 5-10% of your coins (an amount you determine, depending on the size of your portfolio.) You increase your standard of living, and you contribute to a more stable price rise. And, if it does crash, you have already cashed out many, many times more than your initial investment, so no worries.
This I absolutely agree with. No arguments here. This is probably the best approach to take.
Jump to: