Topic: This is beyond craziness - page 2. (Read 630 times)

No because at the end of the day it is still regular newbies who fall for this scam and start participating in the spam attack to acquire these junks.
The only possibility is that maybe some miners were behind "creation" of this attack at the very beginning.

And all that is terrible marketing for Bitcoin since the spam attack is making bitcoin more and more unusable every day.

There is a difference between the ways you profit. They better profit by creating a miner that uses less energy and generates higher hashrate rather than profiting from regular bitcoin users by spamming the network. To be honest, I think that there might be a cartel between Bitcoin ordinals teams and miners. Otherwise, why would they pay such a high fees? I don't say this is true but it might be true. Can't find any other logical explanation to this nonsense. Are people really willing to pay so much money just for creating one ordinal? How will they profit if they pay $40 in a single one, does everyone expect to profit millions from each of them?

I have not said that about phishing and scams. Are ordinals scams? No, you can't argue, no one steals money from you, you see and know exactly what you are willing to buy instead of saving a JPEG file. If people are willing to pay tons of money in a dumb ape art, why should I stop them? Maybe they think it's the real art and call bullshit to Leonardo Da Vinci's art? Taste is very individual and changes over time. Maybe they see something amazing in dumb ape that we can't see.

I feel high when I see someone paying millions of dollars in NFT garbage, I just can't stop laughing.

Does it make sense to say that there is a cartel between bitcoin ordinals team and big mining corporations? Like ordinals say: I'll produce tons of bullshit bitcoin ordinals, will pay a fortune (but you pay me back), this will increase transaction fees, you'll benefit and also I'll benefit by selling these junks. These high fees are also a great marketing for bitcoin ordinals because many articles are written and there is a big discussion. A huge win for ordinals and miners. Doesn't my theory make sense?

Sadly I think you may be right because we let this scam grow too big to be easy to contain. I've been warning this would happen for almost a year and nobody listened. The standard rules could have prevented this whole mess in early days very easily.
Although that shouldn't be the reason for not implementing the preventive measures through standard rules right now either.

I don't believe you can stop this without messing with consensus rules. Standardness isn't going to help. Binance essentially funds this, and Binance is literally mining. Newbies can buy and sell this nonsense using third parties, and maybe at this time it'll be worse, because we will have an inaccurate mempool.

It is the minimum standard UTXO size allowed in P2PKH outputs. But, this one is P2TR, where the dust threshold is 330.

It could be a miner payment, which saves space for another output. But, to me it seems more like someone testing taproot.

Harmful? I don't think Bitcoin is harmed technically from these transactions. Bitcoin works as expected, increasing the fees. It was intentionally built to do this. The problem is that blocks like this: https://mempool.space/block/00000000000000000002f83ab72267be24e81ec374b726f94d2ae784fcd9c442 are full of transactions where the output is a 546 sats UTXO.

Essentially the recepient won't be able to do anything with a 546 sats UTXO. At the same time, 546 sats is the minimum UTXO size allowed in Bitcoin, so it looks like people fill blocks with dust outputs.

P.S I didn't check the past of these transactions to see where the money come from, but it is suspicious, in my opinion.

Question for everyone more technically savvy than me: Could those be direct payments to the miners for some reason? Because if you think about it, you will see that these transactions pay for example 50,000 sats on fees (to the miners) and 546 sats to an address.

When we have newbies who don't understand how things work and still think the junk they're buying is a "token" and call it things like "BRC-20", it is not really surprising to see some of these newbies make giant mistakes such as paying a ridiculously high fee that makes no sense otherwise.

I don't know why this particular case happened but we know for sure that we are going to see a lot more dumb mistakes like this in the future. Even more of them if full nodes start rejecting the Ordinals Attack and the scammers are forced to use third party software to circumvent a lot of stuff...

Kraken will let me move up to 1.5 btc

and nicehash will also allow up to 1.5 btc.


and I would never move more than 0.05 btc via LN so they are decent solutions. I suspect that people will flood both kraken and Nicehash once

they realize how cheap they are and then that limit will be tested.

For now kraken and nicehash will work . 



but if I put 1000 cash in kraken buy 1000 in btc and send 500 via LN to nicehash I would have 2 different small change LN accessible wallets.

To me, it rather seems like someone's attacking their own pocket.

Why is this particular transaction considered spam? I see a multi-sig paying another multi-sig and a miner. Sure, the dust output is weird, but how's that harmful?

No. Based on their logic, we should absolutely warn them about scams, but if they nonetheless want to visit the phishing site, we shouldn't deprive their right.

All I can see is people playing around with another greater fool theory financial instrument. The fact that miners get paid along the way doesn't mean they invented it in secret.

All I'm saying is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I didn't claim that miners did this in secret, you did. So, it is you who needs to back this up.

Actually that's the least worse of them
The fee for the tx might be  201,892 sat/vB , but the effective fee is only 1,909 sat/vB, it a fee with ancestors into the half of kilo size with 40-30satb


Yeah , nice conspiracy theory..
Why didn't those miners do that when core went in bankruptcy protection and riot clocked $300 million losses?
How are miners clogging the network when this epoch alone the pace is up 5% so this period we had extra 87 blocks than normal, just for the sake of comparing things 60 blocks it's all it takes to drop fees to under 30sat/b.


Please do elaborate!!
I'm curious how miners as that time were being able to control the market, but please use data for this, not baseless assumption as I never had the feeling i'm in some mastermind group that uses my hashing power to fix the price.

You shouldn't and I hope that my post didn't come across that way to you?


You can argue the same for any high performing business though do you really think that in this unregulated space, miners are going to sit back and say "Oh, my belly is full, we make enough profit, why should we make more by extracting exorbitant value from the Bitcoin blockchain via Ordinals while we can?"

This makes no sense. Businesses are made to profit, miners are no exception. If there is an opportunity to make more bitcoin or money, they will do it.


Then you should be against ordinals.

Not only is it outside of what Bitcoin is intended for, it is stopping regular users like you from being able to interact with the chain normally.


Your first point is valid. Your second point is confusing.

Based on your logic, we should do nothing to aware people of phishing and scams as "if that's what they want to do and it's in their budget, then we should let them".

Though that aside....
I feel very strongly that you and everyone else are completely misreading the network traffic. While the "X" platform might make everyone look individual, they are not....and while ordinal traffic seems like just a bunch of idiots flipping garbage, this is not what us driving demand...continuing on by replying to BHC:


You can logically deduce what is happening...and if I or anyone else had the tools or time to analyze every ordinals transaction based on value, with additional chain analysis to link any KYC'd exchanges or any institution/company involvement, I would be almost certain that one will find connections and that the BRC20 agenda is definitely not 100% driven by non motivated individuals who are flipping garbage which seems to be the narrative (or naïveté) that this forum is following at the moment.

Just think of how many conspiracies you have heard of in the last 20-30 years, and how much has turned out to be true after the CIA declassified their documents, and as humans became smarter with more information.

Most of us are long past using "conspiracy" to discredit logical opinions rather than providing valid reasoning to rationalize the opposing opinion.

There is a limit to those things
Unless you have some very loose inbound capacity  limits, you will be very limited using LN.

And as fees are already high now, you cannot increase your capacity now.

For bitcoin ecosystem, onchain transaction are still very important

Holy shit man, that is wild, was this happening to everyone on the network that day? I had a friend of mine pay a .01 BTC transaction fee this past weekend, insane. Is / was there any way around that? I really hope these fees get fixed soon because I think they are definitely a huge debbie downer for bitcoin and will get all the negative nancy's and even worse, the karens going!!!

It is not an issue at all if you have an LN exchange such as kraken and the electrum wallet.

put cash into   kraken buy some btc use their LN wallet to send to your electrum wallet and you spend almost nothing in fees.

And I thought the network was expensive a month ago but look at that shit now:


https://bitcoinfees.net/

Bitcoin is practically impossible to use right now. Whoever is paying them high fees are not right in the head. Maybe it is just the exchanges and similar big guys. No sane individual would pay that many sats to create a transaction. At this point, legacy centralized banking beats bitcoin on every possible metric. (unless btc gets fixed soon)

You can pay 50 sats/byte still the tx confirmation can take a day or even longer... ($10 to get confirmed in 6 hours? whatthadayumm)

I hope this is temporary, otherwise...

The only thing we know for sure is that someone attacks Bitcoin with transactions like this: https://mempool.space/tx/51818e244c6dd93ece167ab78fe934068e229cdccd54d294e88226d2bb9f800d

There is a huge amount of dust transactions. So, this is strong evidence that some people spam the network and one of the possibilities is that they use money earned from selling ordinals. Of course I don't have the time to try to prove it, but don't you thinks that's a possibility?


I seriously doubt this can happen... If I had a guess, I would say that high fees are here to stay...

To me it seems like a coincidence. The theory that Ordinals were invented to fill the miners' pockets is nothing more than conspiracy, unless you have tangible evidence.

---

Do we have any statistics about Ordinal profitability? I mean, the medium priority fee right now is 154 sat/vb, and an Ordinal transaction is way above the median size. If it takes 10 bucks to have a median sized transaction confirmed, then how much does one pay to create an Ordinal? A thousand? And another thousand to sell it? How's this profitable?

Why should I sacrifice my finances for The Foundry, BitFury and other giant mining companies? They are making tons of money by getting super cheap electricity and some other benefits that commercial giants gain. Some mining companies don't even pay taxes.
There is a difference between earning enough to cover expenses and earning as much as possible by milking other people via dirty plan.

To be honest, I am not against Ordinals, I just want normal transaction fees for users like me to be able to use Bitcoin for regular payments. I have a very mixed feeling about Bitcoin Ordinals. One part of me wants to block Bitcoin Ordinals because they exploit the bug of Bitcoin protocol, their place isn't here and they are the reason behind enormously high transaction fees but another part of me wants to keep them on Bitcoin network because if people want to spend tons of dollars to buy meaningless shit, I think we shouldn't stop them, it's all their budget. If they don't want their money and want to throw away in the garbage, let them do it because there are other smart people who will collect that money. It's not a scam or ponzi scheme, every buyer knows that they buy bullshit and they do it intentionally. I just can't imagine how Ordinal creators are willing to pay tons of money in transaction fees just to create ordinals. Seems, there is a huge demand on garbage from hundreds of thousands of people.

Think about this...

in 2012, 2016, 2020, miners had huge control over the Bitcoin market. They could influence the price to be able to accumulate more cheaper, and they could also influence the price positively to make up for the differences that occurred during halving...

This time, things are a bit different. A lot of supply has been bought, but not sold back. Not as much has been mined, and more have been distributed to a larger amount of holders, who are also stronger holders this time around.

So, how can miners gain power, revenue, and profit in preparation for yet another hit to their control over Bitcoin?

Fees. Jack the fees up, extract as much value as possible, artificially clog the blockchain, if need be! Urgent transfers will need to pay, services will need to pay...miners claw back.

That's my logic path anyway

---

P.S...don't forget that NFTs/Ordinals can be vehicles for things much more than just "idiots who are FOMO'ing".
I can assure you, these idiots are not the ones who are inflating the chain. It is intentional work.

Miners are whaling!


3.94
4.46
3.53
3.64
3.88
3.99
4.05
5.26
4.02
4.41.
4.25
4.29
4.73
4.75
5.00
6.01
5.88
6.51
5.54
6.30.
5.00
5.09
5.39
6.25
4.73
5.05
5.73
5.38
6.07

0? REALLY FAST BLOCK.

5.41
5.35
6.66
6.08
5.53
5.84
6.24
6.61
7.74
7.05,
5.56
5.91
6.15
5.91
5.99
6.45
6.74
6.93
7.38
7.41,
8.05
7.31
7.16
4.87
4.84
4.84
4.07
4.19
4.61
4.08.
4.08
4.80
4.48
4.22
4.66
3.88
3.76
4.19
2.76
4.13,
3.04
3.05
3.22
3.17
3.56
3.38
3.99
3.85
3.13
3.21,
3.56
3.38
3.73
3.57
3.79
3.77
4.21
4.58
3.89
4.29,
3.03
3.21
3.11


2.30------------ these are lower.
2.54
2.33
2.25
2.78
2.33
2.67,
2.33
2.66
2.59
3.03
3.26
2.92
2.23
2.37
2.57
2.98,
2.40
2.85
2.38
2.61
2.57
1.68
1.77
2.17

It's that very BRC20 hype crew causing all the mess. Since they are minting a lot of money out of fools who are on FOMO. They don't really care about transaction fees when moving BTC around. For example;

In the first transaction. Check this address:
https://ordiscan.com/address/bc1pzekc78cuqym059yjxmwqdd7l5mqvphj24w7xf4y02xczwj3lratsgeyk5z

Second transaction
https://ordiscan.com/address/bc1q9x3u9x283p2g79xcxsgqxn5cjc3xtca7nv5c8z

Third transaction
https://ordiscan.com/address/bc1qmmve2mdnrwqgnq2zwpgr3ge9syswvd803zjejv

What do you see?

If nothing is going to be done. We are in for a long, hard spell of high transaction fees on the Bitcoin network. We haven't even hit the bull run yet.