This Isn't Manipulation | Bitcointalksearch.org

South Park

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Quote from: Newchanka on January 18, 2019, 09:50:46 AM

Do you think there is enough awareness for Bitcoin and other leading cryptocurrencies. I really do not care much about all the others but Bitcoin must be supported for global adoption. Those of us that have benefited from the coin will have much more to gain in terms of value. Global commerce will gain in terms of reduced restrictions.

But the coin community isn't really doing enough save sitting around and waiting for centralized authorities to determine the trend. The reality is that governments map out policies that favor their fiat, so should the community.

I have started seeing the coin community as the custodian of Bitcoin and its success. I think we should take the bull by the horn and effectively market the coin like a business. This post for instance shows how ICOs can market their tokens like real business entities. By extention, Bitcoin enthusiasts should find ways to promote the coin for massive adoption. Fiat is business to governments. Bitcoin should be business to us.
https://cryptoinfowatch.com/a-clickfunnels-review-automating-your-ico/

The problems with trying to promote bitcoin as a business is that the analogy you are making does not work, icos are private business because they ask for funds in exchange for a part of the supply of the coins, so they are effectively selling shares of their company, bitcoin never went through anything like that, at first the coins were given for free to anyone that asked or you could mine your own for almost no cost, so while we can promote bitcoin to try to push the level of adoption we should never think of bitcoin as a centralized business.

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Quote from: arpon11 on January 22, 2019, 02:19:35 AM

Bitcoin has made this great impact on world's economic without any support from governments and traditional financial institutions! The media has not helped matter in any way and I agree with op that bitcoin was not well published and most of the information we see online except cryptocurrencies forum like this are against bitcoin. Blockchain technology is the future of our financial system and it will do our society good if from now we make a decision to accept it and adopt it into the world financial system.

The market will rise high when people around will start to recognized and adopt this system, people like us who knew about this system should focus on sharing the benefits and keep moving forward to introduce to many the good side of blockchain and cryptocurrency, media didn't play a good role but the can help changing the view of many if certain ideas will come from us, it will be an addition to the end users and since crypto is determine with its supplies and demands it won't be feared being manipulated.

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 21, 2019, 11:33:57 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 21, 2019, 03:38:35 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:47:24 PM

i'm not saying bitcoin is just about trading. i'm saying that increased market liquidity dampens volatility. that is a matter of fact

It is "a matter of fact" only in very specific conditions (i.e. in your head mostly)

are you serious? now you're even contesting the idea that "increased market liquidity dampens volatility"?

And with this you get caught red-handed

As you seem to acknowledge yourself that "this is speculative value and it mostly adds to volatility" is not the same as "increased market liquidity dampens volatility", huh. So what exactly are you arguing with here and who is actually arguing for argument's sake now? Speculative value can't but add to market (price) volatility in exactly the same way as real value can't but take from that volatility, per definition (speculative value being anything but real value). It is sort of accounting identity which, believe me, is not worth challenging or arguing with

Herbert2020

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Quote from: wuvdoll on January 21, 2019, 11:49:17 AM

If adoption is not done through talks than I don't know how it will be done.

You talk about bitcoin, I learn about it, I talk about it someone else learns about it, the more we talk about the more people learn about bitcoin and in the end we all come to a level where everyone knows what bitcoin is and can talk about it and that creates a situation where everyone either uses bitcoin or at least knows about it.

If we can create that world than the adoption will increase. There will be more and more people that use bitcoin in the future. Don't forget that technology is adopted by young people first and many young people are not business owners, there will be more and more business owners in the future that are young right now and those people will find a way to accept bitcoin.

very true but also one thing about adoption that people usually miss is that it happens slowly. for example whenever a new technology is introduced in the world (portable phones which we now call cell phone, cars when everyone was using horse and cart to go around,....) it is first adopted by those who are more enthusiast about the technology then by the wise people who see the potential and then after a while it is adapted so that it is easy to use for average Joe and afterwards it is adopted by everyone. right now bitcoin is in the first two steps.

so in the end it is not just about awareness. people may already know about bitcoin but are either to lazy to check it out or too scared to do it. but eventually they all will. like now that they are all using cars without even remembering that once they were scared of this loud machine that burned fuel instead of eating hay and shitting on the streets Cheesy

arpon11

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Bitcoin has made this great impact on world's economic without any support from governments and traditional financial institutions! The media has not helped matter in any way and I agree with op that bitcoin was not well published and most of the information we see online except cryptocurrencies forum like this are against bitcoin. Blockchain technology is the future of our financial system and it will do our society good if from now we make a decision to accept it and adopt it into the world financial system.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: deisik on January 21, 2019, 03:38:35 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:47:24 PM

i'm not saying bitcoin is just about trading. i'm saying that increased market liquidity dampens volatility. that is a matter of fact

It is "a matter of fact" only in very specific conditions (i.e. in your head mostly)

are you serious? now you're even contesting the idea that "increased market liquidity dampens volatility"? if you can't accept the fact that thicker books reduce volatility, we're at an impasse. this forum is full of traders who can attest to that fact because they actually understand how order books and slippage work. you're just arguing for argument's sake now.

Quote from: deisik on January 21, 2019, 03:38:35 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:47:24 PM

whether speculation by traders adds volatility above and beyond their reduction of volatility via liquidity is a matter for debate. but you could never even begin to prove that traders represent a net increase in volatility

This sounds like complete gibberish to me. But I will just say that traders are not the only actors

nobody said traders were the only actors. you claimed that traders increase volatility. i'm merely saying you can't prove it---not with logic nor evidence.

Quote from: deisik on January 21, 2019, 03:38:35 AM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:47:24 PM

what is "real use" though?

if you're talking about people who buy BTC and use it as a p2p currency, they increase volatility by buying up market supply (reducing liquidity).

if you're talking about investors, they're speculating on the market just the same as traders (except they remove liquidity from the market for longer periods of time).

the difference is, traders are short term speculators, meaning they provide liquidity for long term speculators, absorbing their supply and demand. we can't assume traders have a permanent net bullish or bearish bias in any market; all we can do is assume they are providing liquidity, which dampens volatility by definition.

Basically, you don't see the forest for the trees

This shows that you can't look at the bigger picture, and thus can't understand why your whole argument doesn't hold. You feel like you are right indeed because you can't possibly grasp how you can be wrong. I understand your pains and anguish. And I tell you why you feel like that. You don't see why real use overrides speculative value because this real use in case of Bitcoin is virtually non-existent. That's why you are technically correct (with Bitcoin), but still wrong in general, "fundamentally" as you say

how am i wrong in general? you didn't actually establish that.....

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If adoption is not done through talks than I don't know how it will be done.

You talk about bitcoin, I learn about it, I talk about it someone else learns about it, the more we talk about the more people learn about bitcoin and in the end we all come to a level where everyone knows what bitcoin is and can talk about it and that creates a situation where everyone either uses bitcoin or at least knows about it.

If we can create that world than the adoption will increase. There will be more and more people that use bitcoin in the future. Don't forget that technology is adopted by young people first and many young people are not business owners, there will be more and more business owners in the future that are young right now and those people will find a way to accept bitcoin.

deisik

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:47:24 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 20, 2019, 05:18:19 PM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:05:58 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 20, 2019, 10:31:18 AM

Quote from: Indamuck on January 20, 2019, 09:18:40 AM

Traders do add a lot of value to bitcoin by providing liquidity

This is speculative value and it mostly adds to volatility

actually, it's quite the opposite. traders obviously add liquidity to both sides of the order book. increased liquidity fundamentally reduces volatility, because it takes increased buying/selling volume to move the market.

what happens when order books are thin? slippage, which means higher volatility. can you imagine how thin order books would be if traders didn't exist?!

I definitely see what you mean

Moreover, I would likely say essentially the same if someone came up with a similar claim (that speculative value adds to volatility). But I'm not that someone and I can easily tell you why and where you are in fact wrong. Basically, you assume that Bitcoin is just about trading (read, speculation) and in these very specific conditions, you might be right after all. But if we take a wider look, your point can be easily refuted and this also explains why my claim is actually correct if we look beyond sheer speculation

i'm not saying bitcoin is just about trading. i'm saying that increased market liquidity dampens volatility. that is a matter of fact

It is "a matter of fact" only in very specific conditions (i.e. in your head mostly)

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:47:24 PM

whether speculation by traders adds volatility above and beyond their reduction of volatility via liquidity is a matter for debate. but you could never even begin to prove that traders represent a net increase in volatility

This sounds like complete gibberish to me. But I will just say that traders are not the only actors

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:47:24 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 20, 2019, 05:18:19 PM

I intentionally pointed out that it is speculative value since there can also be real value determined by real use. And if we take into account this value, your whole argument is instantly reversed

what is "real use" though?

if you're talking about people who buy BTC and use it as a p2p currency, they increase volatility by buying up market supply (reducing liquidity).

if you're talking about investors, they're speculating on the market just the same as traders (except they remove liquidity from the market for longer periods of time)

Basically, you don't see the forest for the trees

This shows that you can't look at the bigger picture, and thus can't understand why your whole argument doesn't hold. You feel like you are right indeed because you can't possibly grasp how you can be wrong. I understand your pains and anguish. And I tell you why you feel like that. You don't see why real use overrides speculative value because this real use in case of Bitcoin is virtually non-existent. That's why you are technically correct (with Bitcoin), but still wrong in general, "fundamentally" as you say

omonuyak

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Quote from: Newchanka on January 18, 2019, 09:50:46 AM

Do you think there is enough awareness for Bitcoin and other leading cryptocurrencies. I really do not care much about all the others but Bitcoin must be supported for global adoption. Those of us that have benefited from the coin will have much more to gain in terms of value. Global commerce will gain in terms of reduced restrictions.

But the coin community isn't really doing enough save sitting around and waiting for centralized authorities to determine the trend. The reality is that governments map out policies that favor their fiat, so should the community.

I have started seeing the coin community as the custodian of Bitcoin and its success. I think we should take the bull by the horn and effectively market the coin like a business. This post for instance shows how ICOs can market their tokens like real business entities. By extention, Bitcoin enthusiasts should find ways to promote the coin for massive adoption. Fiat is business to governments. Bitcoin should be business to us.
https://cryptoinfowatch.com/a-clickfunnels-review-automating-your-ico/

Bitcoin and ethereum must be truly supported for global and mainstream adoptions. We cannot deny ourself the reality on ground that bitcoin is been manipulated in terms of pricing and public adoptions. The mainstream media are putting in the bad shape and hiding the reality.

bintangkejoraku

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Quote from: b3j0 on January 21, 2019, 12:26:52 AM

well this is not manipulation but there is a large group of whales who like to play prices, with the funds they have they are free to regulate the market as they wish. This whale's whale is very annoying Roll Eyes

they do that to make small investors panic, after that they will buy bitcoin at low prices. when they already have lots of bitcoins, they will make positive news so that the price of bitcoin rises.

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Quote from: FUD Expert on January 20, 2019, 03:13:17 PM

For me, I think we should stop ICOs or limit the number of ICO's every year. Because if you think about it, a lot of money is just getting squandered on projects that has no guarantee that will succeed. It's better to fund coins that are doing great most importantly bitcoin and let's put our money there for the infastructures and etc.

The ICO project cannot be stopped !! all we have to do is limit it. There must be an agency or institution that regulates the establishment of an ICO project. So when there is an ICO project that wants to be realized, it must verify various supporting elements, so that the ICO project can get verification and can continue the project. This must be done immediately because if the current situation continues, the ICO project will probably be seen as something that hinders the development of crypto. We must immediately make changes because with these changes a project will develop and of course there will be fewer ICO projects available, and the most important thing is that the ICO project has the quality to realize all previously promised visions and missions. This will also give investors confidence to invest and in the end the volume of crypto transactions will increase rapidly.

b3j0

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well this is not manipulation but there is a large group of whales who like to play prices, with the funds they have they are free to regulate the market as they wish. This whale's whale is very annoying Roll Eyes

exstasie

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Quote from: Inosend on January 20, 2019, 07:42:12 AM

So what do you call it then? Though the market seems little stable this January

A market. Price discovery. Something like that.

There are definitely attempts at price manipulation, but I think it mostly centers around short-term whipsaws that cause stops and margin calls to trigger on Bitmex.

Bitcoin might be illiquid by conventional market standards, but I think people underestimate how much capital would be required (and how risky it would be) to "manipulate" the market into a mid/long term price trend.

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: deisik on January 20, 2019, 05:18:19 PM

Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:05:58 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 20, 2019, 10:31:18 AM

Quote from: Indamuck on January 20, 2019, 09:18:40 AM

Traders do add a lot of value to bitcoin by providing liquidity

This is speculative value and it mostly adds to volatility

actually, it's quite the opposite. traders obviously add liquidity to both sides of the order book. increased liquidity fundamentally reduces volatility, because it takes increased buying/selling volume to move the market.

what happens when order books are thin? slippage, which means higher volatility. can you imagine how thin order books would be if traders didn't exist?!

I definitely see what you mean

Moreover, I would likely say essentially the same if someone came up with a similar claim (that speculative value adds to volatility). But I'm not that someone and I can easily tell you why and where you are in fact wrong. Basically, you assume that Bitcoin is just about trading (read, speculation) and in these very specific conditions, you might be right after all. But if we take a wider look, your point can be easily refuted and this also explains why my claim is actually correct if we look beyond sheer speculation

i'm not saying bitcoin is just about trading. i'm saying that increased market liquidity dampens volatility. that is a matter of fact.

whether speculation by traders adds volatility above and beyond their reduction of volatility via liquidity is a matter for debate. but you could never even begin to prove that traders represent a net increase in volatility.

Quote from: deisik on January 20, 2019, 05:18:19 PM

I intentionally pointed out that it is speculative value since there can also be real value determined by real use. And if we take into account this value, your whole argument is instantly reversed.

what is "real use" though?

if you're talking about people who buy BTC and use it as a p2p currency, they increase volatility by buying up market supply (reducing liquidity).

if you're talking about investors, they're speculating on the market just the same as traders (except they remove liquidity from the market for longer periods of time).

the difference is, traders are short term speculators, meaning they provide liquidity for long term speculators, absorbing their supply and demand. we can't assume traders have a permanent net bullish or bearish bias in any market; all we can do is assume they are providing liquidity, which dampens volatility by definition.

deisik

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Quote from: figmentofmyass on January 20, 2019, 05:05:58 PM

Quote from: deisik on January 20, 2019, 10:31:18 AM

Quote from: Indamuck on January 20, 2019, 09:18:40 AM

Traders do add a lot of value to bitcoin by providing liquidity

This is speculative value and it mostly adds to volatility

actually, it's quite the opposite. traders obviously add liquidity to both sides of the order book. increased liquidity fundamentally reduces volatility, because it takes increased buying/selling volume to move the market.

what happens when order books are thin? slippage, which means higher volatility. can you imagine how thin order books would be if traders didn't exist?!

I definitely see what you mean

Moreover, I would likely say essentially the same if someone came up with a similar claim (that speculative value adds to volatility). But I'm not that someone and I can easily tell you why and where you are in fact wrong. Basically, you assume that Bitcoin is just about trading (read, speculation) and in these very specific conditions, you might be right after all. But if we take a wider look, your point can be easily refuted and this also explains why my claim is actually correct if we look beyond sheer speculation

I intentionally pointed out that it is speculative value since there can also be real value determined by real use. And if we take into account this value, your whole argument is instantly reversed. More specifically, more real value leads to less speculative value (which is kinda obvious), but less speculative value means less liquidity in the markets (as liquidity gets consumed by real application), which, according to your reasoning, should lead to higher volatility. But it can't because real value is called real for a reason

figmentofmyass

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Quote from: deisik on January 20, 2019, 10:31:18 AM

Quote from: Indamuck on January 20, 2019, 09:18:40 AM

Traders do add a lot of value to bitcoin by providing liquidity

This is speculative value and it mostly adds to volatility

actually, it's quite the opposite. traders obviously add liquidity to both sides of the order book. increased liquidity fundamentally reduces volatility, because it takes increased buying/selling volume to move the market.

what happens when order books are thin? slippage, which means higher volatility. can you imagine how thin order books would be if traders didn't exist?!

FUD Expert

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For me, I think we should stop ICOs or limit the number of ICO's every year. Because if you think about it, a lot of money is just getting squandered on projects that has no guarantee that will succeed. It's better to fund coins that are doing great most importantly bitcoin and let's put our money there for the infastructures and etc.

deisik

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Quote from: eaLiTy on January 20, 2019, 02:01:08 PM

Bitcoin started out to be a digital currency which is above the central authorities of any specific country but things are changing rapidly and most of them are waiting for the regulation to take place, the major fault is the abundance of ICO and other shitty projects which started in the mean time just to take advantage of the new market

The devil, as always, is in paying precious attention to details

In this case, i.e. in the case of Bitcoin regulation, it is not so much about regulating Bitcoin as such (which, as you correctly noted, is above the central authorities of any specific country) as about regulating activities and operations of companies (and individuals too, for that matter) that are dealing and involved with Bitcoin as well as other cryptocurrencies, e.g. exchanges, payment processors, merchants, etc

Regulation of cryptocurrency specific questions, e.g. taxes, also falls into this category. I think this is an important detail which we shouldn't forget to point out and an important distinction which we shouldn't forget to make when talking about "regulating Bitcoin"

Harlot

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I think sitting around is the best option for citizens who are living in a crypto-friendly country but if you are living in countries that have governments that are against cryptocurrencies the best thing you can do is to have a protest and fight for your rights. Because they arw already on the losing side. When both citizens and crypto companies demanding for a change the governments will soon realize that they are missing an opportunity here, their fiat only rule is just really missing the point that crypto is not here to take o er your country. We need to change their views that with proper regulation it won't be the downfall of their country.

BitHodler

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Quote from: Yamifoud on January 19, 2019, 06:38:38 PM

Manipulation takes place when some big personalities came here and do business, but it couldn't be enough to make big change and controlled the market. It is just a normal activities around.

That what you consider manipulation is nothing more than people with deeper pockets than you opening and closing positions. If there was more liquidity available the movements wouldn't be as severe.

This market is literally a joke with how institutions can't be bothered to wire tens or even hundreds of millions to an exchange that doesn't know how to take care of that much capital.

I expect the situation to only improve when legacy institutions start their own spot trading platforms, because the exchanges as they are right now are incompetent and shady in most cases.

Topic: This Isn't Manipulation (Read 634 times)