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Topic: Today I read a disturbing post on /r/darknetmarkets called "Stop FEing" (Read 2351 times)

legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
The only problem that I see is that now you've shifted trust to the market instead of the seller and given the market more incentive to steal funds. If you've worked-out a way to make this aspect trustless, you'd have a great solution.

This.

What about buyer escrows a added percentage and covers the market fluctuation up to a certain point, say 15% and when goods are received cost is calculated then and escrow is divied up accordingly. Smiley

Would mitigate risk on both sides, so seems like a fair alternative without making the system overly complex. Would suck for everyone when the market crashes a lot in a short period of time, but that might be the near-term risk for ease-of-use and privacy.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008

Option 3) USD-stable centralized escrow: Instead of keeping the escrow in a free-floating currency, any deposits received in escrow are immediately exchanged for a USD-stable asset held by the marketplace administrator. Once the buyer receives the product and releases the escrow, the USD-stable asset is exchanged back into the free-floating cryptocurrency. The seller will receive, at the time of escrow release, the amount of free-floating currency equivalent to the seller's list price in USD. The seller then withdraws his anonymous, free-floating cryptocurrency. The transaction is totally untraceable and unlinkable. The seller never sees the USD-stable asset. He takes no volatility risk. He does absolutely 0 work.  


erm.... centralized escrow. Is this an autonomous centralized escrow?

basically my qualm is introducing centralization and a required trust in a third party. I know this 3rd party trust is the basics of escrow, but those are my thoughts.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
21 million. I want them all.
The only problem that I see is that now you've shifted trust to the market instead of the seller and given the market more incentive to steal funds. If you've worked-out a way to make this aspect trustless, you'd have a great solution.

This.

What about buyer escrows a added percentage and covers the market fluctuation up to a certain point, say 15% and when goods are received cost is calculated then and escrow is divied up accordingly. Smiley
I'd rate that as:
Buyer 4 Seller 6.

Dude, I already solved the thread with a Buyer 10, Seller 9.5 solution

/thread

Fin.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
I have a simple solution  Grin Don't do drugs  Shocked Problem solved  Cool

This may come as a surprise to you but some people die without drugs.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
The only problem that I see is that now you've shifted trust to the market instead of the seller and given the market more incentive to steal funds. If you've worked-out a way to make this aspect trustless, you'd have a great solution.

This.

What about buyer escrows a added percentage and covers the market fluctuation up to a certain point, say 15% and when goods are received cost is calculated then and escrow is divied up accordingly. Smiley
hero member
Activity: 613
Merit: 500
Mintcoin: Get some
By the way hedging with derivatives is one reason why proof of stake coins can very easily fail.

Could you please expand on that point?
Explain.
hero member
Activity: 613
Merit: 500
Mintcoin: Get some
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
By the way hedging with derivatives is one reason why proof of stake coins can very easily fail.

Could you please expand on that point?
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
I have a simple solution  Grin Don't do drugs  Shocked Problem solved  Cool

That actually does solve the problem of getting scammed by drug merchants 100%.

And it reminds me of an old Andy Capp cartoon. His wife, Florrie, is looking at a dress shop with a sign "Save 25%!" And Andy pulls her away form the store, barking "I'll show you how to save 100%!"
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
tracking

For escrow release? Or for government agencies? Something else?



I think he means tracking this thread: keeping an eye on the responses.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 500
It's been clear to me that a stable cryptocurrency like NuBits is a much better match for the Dark Net than Bitcoin.

Upon reflection, my preference for anonymous currency shines through here and complicates my idea. There's another option here.

Option 4: Three-party multisig with USD-stable currency.

No exchange volatility.
No risk of market scam.
No risk of seller scam.
The seller can exchange his USD-stable currency for whatever he wants afterwards, including bitcoin or an anonymous crypto.

The only risk is that the entire USD-stable currency fails during delivery time.

Buyer 10 , Seller 9.5 (the seller would still prefer to get his money completely upfront)

Checkmate.

/thread

I just solved everything. Everybody can go home.

Clearly FIAT-stable currencies like nubits, bitUSD or bitCNY could be a great game changer in next-gen markets.

In the case of bitASSETS, they are already anonymous because of TITAN protocol.

Most of current TOR markets seem already using 2of3 multisig escrow.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
21 million. I want them all.
It's been clear to me that a stable cryptocurrency like NuBits is a much better match for the Dark Net than Bitcoin.

Upon reflection, my preference for anonymous currency shines through here and complicates my idea. There's another option here.

Option 4: Three-party multisig with USD-stable currency.

No exchange volatility.
No risk of market scam.
No risk of seller scam.
The seller can exchange his USD-stable currency for whatever he wants afterwards, including bitcoin or an anonymous crypto.

The only risk is that the entire USD-stable currency fails during delivery time.

Buyer 10 , Seller 9.5 (the seller would still prefer to get his money completely upfront)

Checkmate.

/thread

I just solved everything. Everybody can go home.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
21 million. I want them all.
I have a simple solution  Grin Don't do drugs  Shocked Problem solved  Cool

That actually does solve the problem of getting scammed by drug merchants 100%.
sr. member
Activity: 265
Merit: 250
I have a simple solution  Grin Don't do drugs  Shocked Problem solved  Cool
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
21 million. I want them all.
There is a very simple solution to this. The seller can simple hedge her exchange risk say USD/XBT using derivatives.

I've considered this possibility in my post re: OpenBazaar/FreeBazaar

Quote
With bitcoin, there are well-developed margin trading and options trading platforms now. If a merchant is selling 2 BTC worth of merchandise on Freebazaar, and 2 BTC is put in escrow, he can immediately borrow 2 BTC on Bitfinex and sell them for his desired currency. If bitcoin's price plummets, he takes no risk. When the 2 BTC are released from escrow, he uses those BTC to cover the short. Of course, this may be complicated and time consuming from the merchant's perspective. First, it requires the merchant to keep some USD on Bitfinex as collateral in order to borrow the BTC. Money that will be sitting there doing nothing, which is an opportunity cost. Second, borrowing the BTC comes at a cost in the form of interest. Third, selling the BTC incurs fees. Fourth, there is counter-party risk in leaving funds on BitFinex. So hedging comes at a cost.

So, yes, the seller technically can hedge, but in practice, he doesn't (because it's a PITA).  Constantly hedging on Bitfinex outside of the market is probably a Buyer 10, Seller 3 solution. It's as if the seller has to run two separate businesses concurrently: a finance firm and a merchant firm. What we see in reality today is that the seller prefers simplicity. He would rather just give a discount in exchange for FEing. So FE remains the most popular.

Quote from: ArticMine
It is the reason the futures markets were initially developed for agriculture.
(re: farmers. Farmers usually have one or two big harvests per year and thus only need to hedge several times per year. The negatives of hedging are greatly, greatly reduced when you only have to think about it once per crop per year rather than every day or week. Hedging is also much, much more necessary for farmers. Only a limited percentage of a merchants bankroll should be locked up in escrow at any given moment, whereas the farmers entire year's earnings are "locked up" in his uncertain yields. So with farmers, we see much greater incentive and much less of a drawback to shopping around on the futures markets.)

Quote from: ArticMine
Furthermore the hedging does not have to take place in the same market as the transaction.
The idea of having the market do the hedging is because:

1) It offloads the initial investment requirement to the exchange. The exchange is more likely to benefit from investing in an automatic hedging system than an individual merchant. The individual merchant may just want to make a few sales on the market, or even a few hundred sales. If he hedges, he will do it manually, frequently, and will incur various costs (discussed above). He is not going to pay a developer to build a hedging engine. The market is the long-term actor, and is the party best suited to do do this work.

2) It makes it a one-click solution for the seller.
"I want a USD-stable escrow."
Click it. Done.

3) The exchange can avoid the costs of exchange fees by maintaining its own floats in crypto (which it probably does anyway). Let's say that the market administrator can't keep all of his earnings in government fiat currency because it isn't easily laundered. So, like Ulbricht and others, let's say he's long on BTC and he keeps a large amount of earnings in BTC along with USD. He can incorporate this into the hedging system by making his stash into a float:

a) The admin converts his BTC-stash into USD-stable crypto.
b) Whenever a buyer escrows BTC, the administrator does the exchange internally. He takes ownership of the BTC and converts the escrowed amounts into USD-stable crypto. This is all on paper.

If BTC goes up during the escrow period, he ends up giving less BTC to the seller and keeps the rest as profit. If BTC goes down, he ends up giving more BTC to the seller and losing some of his bankroll. But the admin wanted to be long on this amount of bitcoins anyway. At the same time, the administrator avoids the counter-party risk and exchange fees that would arise from sending the buyer's escrowed coins off-site for exchange.

Quote from: ArticMine
This is an issue common to many markets no just just "dark" markets or even currency markets.

In non-"dark" markets, we see specialized actors arise to handle these kinds of risks. Bitpay and Coinbase specialize in hedging against bitcoin's volatility so that merchants don't have to. Because merchants don't want to. They just want to do their business, not become part-time actuaries. On darknet markets, the market, not the customer or merchant, is the best-placed actor to do the hedging.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
or use a coin less volatile than horribly volatile bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
There is a very simple solution to this. The seller can simple hedge her exchange risk say USD/XBT using derivatives. This is an issue common to many markets no just just "dark" markets or even currency markets. It is the reason the futures markets were initially developed for agriculture. Furthermore the hedging does not have to take place in the same market as the transaction.

By the way hedging with derivatives is one reason why proof of stake coins can very easily fail.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
"Relatively, is there a disadvantage compared to trusting the market instead of the seller?"

Yes, the market has more money involved and therefore more incentive to steal. Also, it paints a bigger target for hackers.  And finally, a seller only rips off those buying from them at the time of the theft, whereas a market rips off everyone who has money in the market at the time of the theft.

The market has more money to steal but it takes much longer to build a reputation and gain volume whereas fraudulent sellers can start up new accounts and get them ready for more frequent (although smaller) scams. Most markets never become popular. The darknet is usually dominated by 2 or 3 of them. So there's a significant opportunity cost to giving up a #1 through #3 ranking. You can earn 100k+ bitcoins running a market honestly, as we can see from Ulbricht's personal stash.

re: a bigger target for hackers. Yes, it is. But if the market keeps the majority of funds in cold storage, and only keeps enough in a hot wallet keep up with withdrawals, then the hacker's take is limited.

I think we always must return to the fact that the market is not interested in perfect security. Participants could have near-perfect security with multi-sig, but participants would rather be scammed every so often than have constant inconvenience and volatility. Maybe Option 3 is 7-7 and still wouldn't be as popular as Option 2 (10-5), but I think it's still worth thinking about.

I think any option is worth discussing. Hashing out what are the risks versus the rewards is part of any healthy vetting process.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
21 million. I want them all.
"Relatively, is there a disadvantage compared to trusting the market instead of the seller?"

Yes, the market has more money involved and therefore more incentive to steal. Also, it paints a bigger target for hackers.  And finally, a seller only rips off those buying from them at the time of the theft, whereas a market rips off everyone who has money in the market at the time of the theft.

The market has more money to steal but it takes much longer to build a reputation and gain volume whereas fraudulent sellers can start up new accounts and get them ready for more frequent (although smaller) scams. Most markets never become popular. The darknet is usually dominated by 2 or 3 of them. So there's a significant opportunity cost to giving up a #1 through #3 ranking. You can earn 100k+ bitcoins running a market honestly, as we can see from Ulbricht's personal stash.

re: a bigger target for hackers. Yes, it is. But if the market keeps the majority of funds in cold storage, and only keeps enough in a hot wallet keep up with withdrawals, then the hacker's take is limited.

I think we always must return to the fact that the market is not interested in perfect security. Participants could have near-perfect security with multi-sig, but participants would rather be scammed every so often than have constant inconvenience and volatility. Maybe Option 3 is 7-7 and still wouldn't be as popular as Option 2 (10-5), but I think it's still worth thinking about.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
tracking

For escrow release? Or for government agencies? Something else?

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