Too many new coins, not enough new Bitcoiners - page 2.

FreeMoney

legendary

Activity: 1246

Merit: 1016

Strength in numbers

Quote from: the founder on October 07, 2011, 04:49:15 PM

It's low today was 3.75 ... and while it was crashing we printed an additional 7200 coins

let me know when you guys believe it's becoming mindless.

Why are you wasting your time? People are not going to change the rules. Just make a new currency and/or borrow coins.

the founder

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 251

Bitcoin

It's low today was 3.75 ... and while it was crashing we printed an additional 7200 coins

let me know when you guys believe it's becoming mindless.

tvbcof

legendary

Activity: 4760

Merit: 1283

Quote from: FAtlas on October 07, 2011, 02:43:01 PM

Here we go again.

Sell sell sell

Hmmm...what have we here? Decide to put a little marble on the roulette wheel just in case?

FAtlas

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Here we go again.

Sell sell sell

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1014

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Bitcoin is like electric cars. Most people think they are a great idea, but nobody will buy one because they don't want to get stuck somewhere. Here's the thing, bitcoin is open source software that can evolve into a Mr Fusion Powered DeLorean in the next few months. Maybe we just need a bitcoin hybrid for awhile, but really greed will make it happen. It can and probably will go viral. Wait for it.. wait for it..

FreeTrade

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1030

Quote from: BitMagic on October 06, 2011, 07:39:26 PM

Good luck convincing the Crypto-currency world to change the name to crypto-method-of-payment. People want to use BTC as a currency. A real one.

It may become a defacto currency in time. But only if it succeeds a method of payment first. One step at a time.

BitMagic

member

Activity: 98

Merit: 10

Quote from: FreeTrade on October 06, 2011, 02:23:29 PM

That's tosh. No-one in their right mind would price their goods in BTC. Bitcoin is a method of payment - it doesn't matter what the price of BTC is as long as there is convertibility - easy convertibility is the important factor, not stable exchange rates.

Good luck convincing the Crypto-currency world to change the name to crypto-method-of-payment. People want to use BTC as a currency. A real one. Not a commodity that has to jump through at least one exchange hoop for every single transaction. That hoop has to be less annoying than using a credit card online, and currently, it's not. It's lucky the novelty and ease of use for grey/black markets has sustaining power. Otherwise, you wouldn't see this thing last a week.

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: evoorhees on October 06, 2011, 11:35:52 AM

Quote from: the founder on October 06, 2011, 11:06:58 AM

Quote from: evoorhees on October 06, 2011, 10:51:23 AM

Quote from: the founder on October 06, 2011, 10:30:24 AM

slothbag,

I've been bitching about the inflation rate and printing off bitcoins at a rate that would even make the Federal Reserve squirm... you'll be preaching to deaf ears.. people here won't listen to that type of logic.

And you've still never addressed the following - the money printing rate was the same (actually higher in percentage terms) when bitcoins were priced at $0.01 and at $30. Of all the variables in the Bitcoin economy, the printing rate is NOT one of them. It's perfectly steady, yet you seem obsessed with attributing a declining market price on that aspect. It's as if you're inferring that Bitcoin has lost its way because we're now printing so much money Roll Eyes

If and when the price rises again, people will start complaining instead about bitcoin being "deflationary" - not printing fast enough. Price rising? "Bitcion will fail cause it's deflationary." Price falling? "Bitcoin is doomed because we're printing so much money!"

While I love a skyrocketing price as much as anyone, for those who understand the true value of these coins, this falling price is a blessing. Be greedy when others are fearful (although I hate quoting the socialist, hypocritical Warren Buffett).

LOL! I knew you would be the one to reply to this one

I did address it... the printing money rate isn't the same as the adoption rate, not even close.

picture this, because this is what is happening (i'm going to use simple figures rather than the real ones for simplicity sake).

-------
January - 5 bitcoins printed - 10 people enter market each wanting 1 bitcoin - price rises
February - 5 bitcoins printed - 11 people enter market each wanting 1 bitcoin - prices rise faster
March - 5 bitcoins printed - 20 people enter market each wanting 1 bitcoin - prices skyrocket
April - 5 bitcoins printed - 4 people enter market wanting 1 bitcoin - prices tank
May - 5 bitcoins printed - 3 people enter market wanting 1 bitcoin - prices tank
Jun - 5 bitcoins printed - 2 people enter market wanting 1 bitcoin - prices tank.
------
July spot price - 5 dollars

If it was able to be adjusted

-----------------
January - 5 bitcoins printed - 10 people enter market each wanting 1 bitcoin - price rises
February - 5 bitcoins printed - 11 people enter market each wanting 1 bitcoin - prices rise faster
March - 5 bitcoins printed - 20 people enter market each wanting 1 bitcoin - prices skyrocket
April - 1 bitcoin printed - 4 people enter market wanting 1 bitcoin - prices skyrocket
May - 5 bitcoins printed - 30 people enter market wanting 1 bitcoin - prices skyrocket
Jun - 5 bitcoins printed - 45 people enter market wanting 1 bitcoin - prices skyrocket
------------------
July spot price 50 dollars.

In the above, by taking action for just one month (April) and reducing the amount printed it changes the whole dynamics of it... the end result would still be 21 million coins at the end, just stabilize it to match demand and keep the asset price growing... because when people see the price booming more start entering... hence increasing demand.

That's very troubling sentiment... manipulating the money supply is precisely the reason fiat currencies are destined for failure. There is no legitimate reason to manipulate the price higher and higher. It may provide short term happiness to those holding coins, but it distorts the market signals that free-floating prices provide. Such manipulation would be the end of Bitcoin's value.

The movement of prices are not arbitrary. They allocate and coordinate how resources are utilized. If the supply rate of Bitcoins were restricted in order to assure a constantly rising price, you'd instantly create a speculative bubble, for every investor would buy as many coins as possible, knowing the price will be "managed" upward. The price would skyrocket - but to what end? Are Bitcoins worth $50 right now? Or $1,000? None of us know. And when that bubble you produce pops, the devastation will be ruinous.

The ability of the price to fall is JUST AS important as the ability of it to rise. Tinker with it one way or the other, and you distort human behavior. If you think you're wise enough to distort it in a positive way, then you're suffering from the same affliction and hubris of all fiat central bankers - believing they are smart enough to know the "proper" market price of any asset. It is folly. And it's precisely because so many fall for the myths of central planning that Bitcoin is so necessary, and so valuable.

The day the money supply is tinkered with (including the derivative rate of such supply), I'm gone. I'll peace out like the Lorax.

evorhees is right.

the founder

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 251

Bitcoin

I would rather have 7000 coins at 1000 each, because people would be clamoring and bidding them up to 1500 each.

Rassah

legendary

Activity: 1680

Merit: 1035

Quote from: FAtlas on October 06, 2011, 12:34:50 PM

Rinse and repeat until there are three bitcoiners left at $0.10 a coin

I wish I had 1/3rd of the Bitcoin supply at $0.10. Not because I want all that bitcoin, but because it's be nice to have $700,000USD worth just lying around.

tvbcof

legendary

Activity: 4760

Merit: 1283

Quote from: FAtlas on October 06, 2011, 03:23:13 PM

Quote from: tvbcof on October 06, 2011, 01:40:09 PM

Then one day a big country pulls an Argentina (in the same way B7 pulled a MyBitcoin) and what remains of the middle class find their ATM's no longer work right. If that happens, and it does not strike me as particularly far-fetched given the difficulty maintaining stability in the 'official' monetary systems these days, it will be very interesting at least and possibly very lucrative to have some BTC squirreled away. It's worth putting a bet on...to me at least.

So keeping your money in a system that's losing value in a way unseen since the Zimbabwe dollar is a way to insure against the unlikely chance that somehow there will be a simultaneous run on all US banks because ________?

It's a cheap and easy bet, and because I value some of the capabilities that Bitcoin offers at the present time.

I'll spare you the effort asserting that long-shot wacko conspiracy bets cannot pay off. That contention has already been invalidated in a tangible way to me.

Quote from: FAtlas on October 06, 2011, 03:23:13 PM

And at that point people will want to barter in BTC instead of usable commodities such as canned food, water, and ammunition because _______?

Capital controls don't necessarily equate the kind of Mad Max world that you are probably imagining. Most often they are more of a gentle caress, one might say.

Actually I _am_ envisioning a 'Mad Max' world, but it will be at the sub-atomic level where you won't probably notice it so much.

Quote from: FAtlas on October 06, 2011, 03:23:13 PM

You're really going to need to fill in the blanks for me on this one because your hypothetical is on par with aliens landing and establishing BTC as the world currency by force.

Always happy to help.

FAtlas

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

Quote from: tvbcof on October 06, 2011, 01:40:09 PM

Then one day a big country pulls an Argentina (in the same way B7 pulled a MyBitcoin) and what remains of the middle class find their ATM's no longer work right. If that happens, and it does not strike me as particularly far-fetched given the difficulty maintaining stability in the 'official' monetary systems these days, it will be very interesting at least and possibly very lucrative to have some BTC squirreled away. It's worth putting a bet on...to me at least.

So keeping your money in a system that's losing value in a way unseen since the Zimbabwe dollar is a way to insure against the unlikely chance that somehow there will be a simultaneous run on all US banks because ________? And at that point people will want to barter in BTC instead of usable commodities such as canned food, water, and ammunition because _______?

You're really going to need to fill in the blanks for me on this one because your hypothetical is on par with aliens landing and establishing BTC as the world currency by force.

allten

sr. member

Activity: 455

Merit: 250

You Don't Bitcoin 'till You Mint Coin

Quote from: the founder on October 06, 2011, 01:21:12 PM

I'm not shorting, I believe in it long term, just we have to wait till next year at 25 reward to raise it rather than it being done yesterday, where it would of helped long term.

I think your view on shorting is misplaced.
I am extremely Bullish on Bitcoin technology and the value of bitcoins long term; however, if the market value is clearly out of line (high or low) then I feel the duty to put it in place by shorting or buying. Shorting doesn't have to equate with pessimism or negativity. IMO, The success of Bitcoin is not its price, but would be better served to achieve its true market value at a much quicker pace.

What price do you speculate would be able to handle the slow down in adoption rate + current money injection rate?
For me, (without getting into detail) it should be stable between $3 and $4 dollars for the next several months.
I don't have the power to force it there, but I can place my vote and in turn do the market a favor by speeding up price discovery (assuming I'm right).

Seriously, you should provide a FC account option to lend money to reputable exchanges that could use the liquidity to short the market.
The more exchanges that have this option the better. Shorting is a very positive thing for a currency.

2112

legendary

Activity: 2128

Merit: 1073

Quote from: FAtlas on October 06, 2011, 12:34:50 PM

until there are three bitcoiners left at $0.10 a coin, circlejerking each other about how "It's really starting to catch on!"

I'm thinking that there will be whole temples of bitcoiners using e-meters to discover the "bitcoin-suppresive people" and "operating crypto-thetans". The bitcoinology e-meters will be made by Cassasius out of refurbished VeriFone Vx570 payment terminals.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Casascius_Bitcoin_POS_system

By that time he will stop accepting bitcoin and only accept FIAT as a part of Purification Rundown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purification_Rundown

FreeTrade

legendary

Activity: 1470

Merit: 1030

Slothbag makes a good point - BTC prices are very well correlated with Google Trends - here's the comparison which I present for you on account of Slothbag being too slothful to do it himself.

Clearly more interest in Bitcoin equates to higher USD prices. The reverse doesn't quite hold true - high prices and dramatic price changes lead to more stories, and thus more interest. Low prices not so much.

Some advocates will tell you that Bitcoin is a currency and so stable prices are important to encourage merchants to price their goods in Bitcoin.

That's tosh. No-one in their right mind would price their goods in BTC. Bitcoin is a method of payment - it doesn't matter what the price of BTC is as long as there is convertibility - easy convertibility is the important factor, not stable exchange rates.

Mageant

legendary

Activity: 1145

Merit: 1001

I don't mind lower prices, at least I can buy more then.
It would be fun for me to have early adopter prices since I missed out on them.
But probably I won't get so lucky.

tvbcof

legendary

Activity: 4760

Merit: 1283

Quote from: FAtlas on October 06, 2011, 12:34:50 PM

More people are leaving the market than are entering while the supply slowly inflates. The price will keep relatively steady around the current number for a little while longer. Then one day it will plunge in a selloff then fluctuate for a little while before stabilizing at a lower number. Rinse and repeat until there are three bitcoiners left at $0.10 a coin, circlejerking each other about how "It's really starting to catch on!" while the constant hum of a white noise mining machine gnaws at the edge of their perception. They justify the electricity cost by claiming that it's heating their homes during the winter, but deep down they know. They Know

An alternate hypothesis is that the value does something along the lines you've outlined, but the system is used for the things it is currently good for. Like providing support organizations like wikileaks or occuplywallstreet who have fallen out of favor with the large financial institutions and governments (which are increasingly indistinguishable.) Over this time the system in increasingly analyzed and hardened. Also, however, over this time the system is also analyzed for zero-day attacks and media prep work is done.

Then one day a big country pulls an Argentina (in the same way B7 pulled a MyBitcoin) and what remains of the middle class find their ATM's no longer work right. If that happens, and it does not strike me as particularly far-fetched given the difficulty maintaining stability in the 'official' monetary systems these days, it will be very interesting at least and possibly very lucrative to have some BTC squirreled away. It's worth putting a bet on...to me at least.

tetra4c

newbie

Activity: 19

Merit: 0

Let's hope the technical analysis at http://blog.bitcoinwatch.com/ is right!

One observation - there is a learning curve for using, believing and trusting in Bitcoin. After this last cycle, anyone I talk too *at least* knows about Bitcoin. That's got to be a positive. Eventually, they should become more comfortable using it (hopefully).

Now if people would stop selling their coins the price could actually go up a bit or two! Roll Eyes

the founder

sr. member

Activity: 448

Merit: 251

Bitcoin

I'm not shorting, I believe in it long term, just we have to wait till next year at 25 reward to raise it rather than it being done yesterday, where it would of helped long term.

allten

sr. member

Activity: 455

Merit: 250

You Don't Bitcoin 'till You Mint Coin

Quote from: the founder on October 06, 2011, 10:30:24 AM

slothbag,

I've been bitching about the inflation rate and printing off bitcoins at a rate that would even make the Federal Reserve squirm... you'll be preaching to deaf ears.. people here won't listen to that type of logic.

The market is mature enough to short. I hope you are "put"ing you money where your mouth is.
You would in essence be doing your part to help the bitcoin economy discover the true price even faster (assuming you are correct) which would be very good thing....

Topic: Too many new coins, not enough new Bitcoiners - page 2. (Read 5476 times)