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Topic: Too pool or not to pool? That is the question..+ a poll & poolings effect on BTC - page 2. (Read 7513 times)

full member
Activity: 155
Merit: 100
Thanks, so I guess the idea of having a pool where members must meet a certain hash rate sayyy 100mhash/s for example does not exist yet?
Why would someone do that ?
This restriction will only be necessary for some small-scale pool which is incapable to serve many slow miners.
Pool without restrictions gets more users and makes more BTC.

Say you have a pool with 100 members with the exact same hash rate as a pool with 1000 members, wouldn't the smaller pool generate the same amount of bitcoin and each member would get 10x more than in the larger pool?
member
Activity: 78
Merit: 10
You got any estimates for pay-per-share at 1.1Ghash/s (And at 1.3Ghash/s if you can too please).
1.1 GH/s will give you 13 BTC per day at pay-per-share or 14 BTC per day with proportional payout
So that's almost 1BTC/day at 70MH/s, right?

----

As long as we're discussing different kind of pools:


What if someone created a pool with a limited max hashrate dedicated to just CPU miners?

What if someone created a pool that combined a lottery system along with participation? (24 random users get a guaranteed 1BTC per block, and the remaining 25BTC is divided among the entire pool)

What if someone created a small pool that had a limited amount of users and every hour, runs a non-paid 400GH/s client for 1 minute (unless it finds a block in less than a minute)? The users could be limited to a rotating list of 25 users per day. *2BTC per hour, about 45BTC per day*
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
You got any estimates for pay-per-share at 1.1Ghash/s (And at 1.3Ghash/s if you can too please).
1.1 GH/s will give you 13 BTC per day at pay-per-share or 14 BTC per day with proportional payout
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Thanks, so I guess the idea of having a pool where members must meet a certain hash rate sayyy 100mhash/s for example does not exist yet?
Why would someone do that ?
This restriction will only be necessary for some small-scale pool which is incapable to serve many slow miners.
Pool without restrictions gets more users and makes more BTC.

The smaller the pool the higher your payout. Currently I am in this pool http://btcmine.com but it isn't generating payouts for days at a time so I will be leaving. The bitpenny pool seems to be much more advantageous to me however as it pays out even if a block isn't solved: This puts the "Gamble" onto the owner of the pool instead, and for this reason he takes 10% commission.
The smaller the pool the higher your payout per block. But bigger pools have more blocks, so overall payment is the same.
Bitpenny is not the only one with pay-per-share payout. My pool provides it too.

3% fee, you got me within the next 12 hours in your pool  Cool

You got any estimates for pay-per-share at 1.1Ghash/s (And at 1.3Ghash/s if you can too please).
legendary
Activity: 1386
Merit: 1097
If Joe pool operator makes a code change that breaks things, the pool goes down. He isn't likely to have a development environment, test deployments etc. So wwe have 2-3% comissions then there is the downtime which reduces efficiency even further.

Teoretically - yes. Practically - I'm doing tests for more than 50% of time spent on the development. I'm sure that pool operator(s) of other big pool(s) does the similar. In fact, my pool started up 16.12.2010 and except two server restarts in January and slightly lower hashrate (drop around 30%) during 2hours of DoS attack in February, it is up all the time.

And yes, I have development environment and even stage environment on other machines in the same data center.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
Thanks, so I guess the idea of having a pool where members must meet a certain hash rate sayyy 100mhash/s for example does not exist yet?
Why would someone do that ?
This restriction will only be necessary for some small-scale pool which is incapable to serve many slow miners.
Pool without restrictions gets more users and makes more BTC.

The smaller the pool the higher your payout. Currently I am in this pool http://btcmine.com but it isn't generating payouts for days at a time so I will be leaving. The bitpenny pool seems to be much more advantageous to me however as it pays out even if a block isn't solved: This puts the "Gamble" onto the owner of the pool instead, and for this reason he takes 10% commission.
The smaller the pool the higher your payout per block. But bigger pools have more blocks, so overall payment is the same.
Bitpenny is not the only one with pay-per-share payout. My pool provides it too.
full member
Activity: 155
Merit: 100
Thanks to everyone for answering questions!

So is there a pool that requires each member to have a minimum hash/s to join?

I would assume the pool that has the highest hashrate/member ratio will be the ones making the most BTC.
I would be interested in joining or maybe creating such a pool.

The smaller the pool the higher your payout. Currently I am in this pool http://btcmine.com but it isn't generating payouts for days at a time so I will be leaving. The bitpenny pool seems to be much more advantageous to me however as it pays out even if a block isn't solved: This puts the "Gamble" onto the owner of the pool instead, and for this reason he takes 10% commission.

Thanks, so I guess the idea of having a pool where members must meet a certain hash rate sayyy 100mhash/s for example does not exist yet?
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
Thanks to everyone for answering questions!

So is there a pool that requires each member to have a minimum hash/s to join?

I would assume the pool that has the highest hashrate/member ratio will be the ones making the most BTC.
I would be interested in joining or maybe creating such a pool.

The smaller the pool the higher your payout. Currently I am in this pool http://btcmine.com but it isn't generating payouts for days at a time so I will be leaving. The bitpenny pool seems to be much more advantageous to me however as it pays out even if a block isn't solved: This puts the "Gamble" onto the owner of the pool instead, and for this reason he takes 10% commission.
full member
Activity: 155
Merit: 100
Thanks to everyone for answering questions!

So is there a pool that requires each member to have a minimum hash/s to join?

I would assume the pool that has the highest hashrate/member ratio will be the ones making the most BTC.
I would be interested in joining or maybe creating such a pool.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
As the overall hashing rate of the network goes up, so does the difficulty. Now for the new "Super user" they will still earn a decent amount, but for smaller users it become unprofitable. This difficulty factor prevents inflation beyond a desired amount, and it varies to maintain the overall value of a bitcoin.

However, your talking about £100k's, if not in excess of £1m, of equipment costs to reach even 50% of the bitcoin network hashing potential.

Does overall hashing rate simply increase by the combined efforts of the entire network or are there other factors such as total amount of miners or the average hashing rate to number of miners?

My question basically is does total number of "miners" (a pool representing 1 miner) on the network also have any influence on the rate at which the difficulty rises\falls?



In simple form no, but it really depends on what each miner is bringing to the network. You could lose 2000 CPU miners and the difficulty would barely change, but loosing even 50 GPU miners would be a large enough event to shift the difficulty. This also applies if a pool as large as "Slush" ever went down for a prolonged period in time as 120Ghash/s would instantly be lost.

Say everyone in every pool started solo mining, would that also have an effect on the difficulty?

Nothing, the hashing rate for the entire network would remain the same, but the GPU miners would probably solve a much larger percentage of the blocks: Basically all it's going to affect is the amount of money that CPU miners don't already get.
hero member
Activity: 742
Merit: 500
But what does that tell you? Let's say I ran a pool with a 5% comission. So I get 2.5 BTC from each block. What stops me from having my pool software simulate a few 5970 clients, awarding me their score in the pool rankings. That of course would be done with seperate addresses so it wouldn't show up on block explorer. I can't think of a way to protect against something like that.
It's enough just to compare your expected payout to real one. It should be the same on average, every participant can do this.

Second, these pools are mostly being run by one person and lack things like fault tolerance. If Joe pool operator makes a code change that breaks things, the pool goes down. He isn't likely to have a development environment, test deployments etc. So wwe have 2-3% comissions then there is the downtime which reduces efficiency even further.
So in that respect, I am thinking solo provides the greatest efficiency. There is no overhead loss due to comissions or pool outages.
Do you have any statistics on pool outages or proofs of fault tolerance lack ? How would you know if pool operators have test deployments or not ?
Please, don't make such assumptions.

Solo mining efficiency is higher only if you have hashing speed high enough to find blocks faster than difficulty adjustment steps.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
First, you need to trust the pool operator. I am not saying they are not honest folks but there is no way an outsider to the pool can verify that the operator is only taking what he says he is taking.

Well, you can see precisely where the 50 BTC from each block goes, at http://blockexplorer.com/



But what does that tell you? Let's say I ran a pool with a 5% comission. So I get 2.5 BTC from each block. What stops me from having my pool software simulate a few 5970 clients, awarding me their score in the pool rankings. That of course would be done with seperate addresses so it wouldn't show up on block explorer. I can't think of a way to protect against something like that.

Over time, participants could get together and realize that their combined returns were less than expected.
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
First, you need to trust the pool operator. I am not saying they are not honest folks but there is no way an outsider to the pool can verify that the operator is only taking what he says he is taking.

Well, you can see precisely where the 50 BTC from each block goes, at http://blockexplorer.com/



But what does that tell you? Let's say I ran a pool with a 5% comission. So I get 2.5 BTC from each block. What stops me from having my pool software simulate a few 5970 clients, awarding me their score in the pool rankings. That of course would be done with seperate addresses so it wouldn't show up on block explorer. I can't think of a way to protect against something like that.
full member
Activity: 155
Merit: 100
As the overall hashing rate of the network goes up, so does the difficulty. Now for the new "Super user" they will still earn a decent amount, but for smaller users it become unprofitable. This difficulty factor prevents inflation beyond a desired amount, and it varies to maintain the overall value of a bitcoin.

However, your talking about £100k's, if not in excess of £1m, of equipment costs to reach even 50% of the bitcoin network hashing potential.

Does overall hashing rate simply increase by the combined efforts of the entire network or are there other factors such as total amount of miners or the average hashing rate to number of miners?

My question basically is does total number of "miners" (a pool representing 1 miner) on the network also have any influence on the rate at which the difficulty rises\falls?



In simple form no, but it really depends on what each miner is bringing to the network. You could lose 2000 CPU miners and the difficulty would barely change, but loosing even 50 GPU miners would be a large enough event to shift the difficulty. This also applies if a pool as large as "Slush" ever went down for a prolonged period in time as 120Ghash/s would instantly be lost.

Say everyone in every pool started solo mining, would that also have an effect on the difficulty?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
First, you need to trust the pool operator. I am not saying they are not honest folks but there is no way an outsider to the pool can verify that the operator is only taking what he says he is taking.

Well, you can see precisely where the 50 BTC from each block goes, at http://blockexplorer.com/

full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
I have done both and am currently pooling. However, I am considering moving away from pools.
First, you need to trust the pool operator. I am not saying they are not honest folks but there is no way an outsider to the pool can verify that the operator is only taking what he says he is taking.
Second, these pools are mostly being run by one person and lack things like fault tolerance. If Joe pool operator makes a code change that breaks things, the pool goes down. He isn't likely to have a development environment, test deployments etc. So wwe have 2-3% comissions then there is the downtime which reduces efficiency even further.
So in that respect, I am thinking solo provides the greatest efficiency. There is no overhead loss due to comissions or pool outages.
sr. member
Activity: 373
Merit: 250
Except that the early adopters here are more likely to be highly attentive of what's happening with their clients, and if Slush's pool were to suddenly go down for more than a day or two, I suspect the networking power would return in the form of the growth of other pools fairly quickly.  A temporary loss of 120 Ghash/s yes, but not for a very long time before people manually switch to another solution.
member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
As the overall hashing rate of the network goes up, so does the difficulty. Now for the new "Super user" they will still earn a decent amount, but for smaller users it become unprofitable. This difficulty factor prevents inflation beyond a desired amount, and it varies to maintain the overall value of a bitcoin.

However, your talking about £100k's, if not in excess of £1m, of equipment costs to reach even 50% of the bitcoin network hashing potential.

Does overall hashing rate simply increase by the combined efforts of the entire network or are there other factors such as total amount of miners or the average hashing rate to number of miners?

My question basically is does total number of "miners" (a pool representing 1 miner) on the network also have any influence on the rate at which the difficulty rises\falls?



In simple form no, but it really depends on what each miner is bringing to the network. You could lose 2000 CPU miners and the difficulty would barely change, but loosing even 50 GPU miners would be a large enough event to shift the difficulty. This also applies if a pool as large as "Slush" ever went down for a prolonged period in time as 120Ghash/s would instantly be lost.
full member
Activity: 155
Merit: 100
As the overall hashing rate of the network goes up, so does the difficulty. Now for the new "Super user" they will still earn a decent amount, but for smaller users it become unprofitable. This difficulty factor prevents inflation beyond a desired amount, and it varies to maintain the overall value of a bitcoin.

However, your talking about £100k's, if not in excess of £1m, of equipment costs to reach even 50% of the bitcoin network hashing potential.

Does overall hashing rate simply increase by the combined efforts of the entire network or are there other factors such as total amount of miners or the average hashing rate to number of miners?

My question basically is does total number of "miners" (a pool representing 1 miner) on the network also have any influence on the rate at which the difficulty rises\falls?

member
Activity: 112
Merit: 10
As the overall hashing rate of the network goes up, so does the difficulty. Now for the new "Super user" they will still earn a decent amount, but for smaller users it become unprofitable. This difficulty factor prevents inflation beyond a desired amount, and it varies to maintain the overall value of a bitcoin.

However, your talking about £100k's, if not in excess of £1m, of equipment costs to reach even 50% of the bitcoin network hashing potential.
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