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Topic: Total Number of full nodes operating. Less than 10k. - page 2. (Read 1195 times)

legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
The main focus should be mining full nodes which have been slaughtered out by pools and coffin nailed by ASICs while we were debating block size and SW to have LN running.

Right... so now everything else is to blame except for the actual cause?  SegWit and Lighting have no relevance to this matter whatsoever.  The economic incentive was there, so some people took advantage.  That's all there is to it.  It also bit them in the ass in 2015 when they got it wrong and cost themselves money by building on the wrong chain.  So perhaps they learned something and will be less likely to make the same mistake again.  The network is resilient enough for it not to be a major issue.  Whatever we were debating in the community at the time, it wouldn't have changed a thing.  The miners tried taking a shortcut and paid the price for their lapse in judgement.  They should now understand the importance of validating.  
It is totally nonsense. How is it possible not to blame distraction and distractors? Heh?

A new promising technology naturally faces challenges and obstacles? Whose responsibility is to keep it safe and secure other than its community and the devs?

The thing that keeps it in check is the alignment of incentives.  You know, that thing you arrogantly think you can screw around with and there won't be any consequences?  That.


I'm blaming bitcoin community and its devs for being in a mental state in which they have lost focus and misjudgingly devoted their resources to issues not of vital importance at the same time that we have been and still we are face to face with critical centralization challenges. It is called distraction in plain English, add it to your dictionary.

Blame whoever you want, I still think you're an arrogant tool.  Devs aren't here to bow to your every whim.  They have the freedom to work on whatever appeals to them.  Again, you clearly care about pools and ASICs more than anyone else does.  If it's so important to you, go start your own coin where those elements don't factor into it.

I consider your technical arguments wrong and confused.
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1177
Always remember the cause!
The main focus should be mining full nodes which have been slaughtered out by pools and coffin nailed by ASICs while we were debating block size and SW to have LN running.

Right... so now everything else is to blame except for the actual cause?  SegWit and Lighting have no relevance to this matter whatsoever.  The economic incentive was there, so some people took advantage.  That's all there is to it.  It also bit them in the ass in 2015 when they got it wrong and cost themselves money by building on the wrong chain.  So perhaps they learned something and will be less likely to make the same mistake again.  The network is resilient enough for it not to be a major issue.  Whatever we were debating in the community at the time, it wouldn't have changed a thing.  The miners tried taking a shortcut and paid the price for their lapse in judgement.  They should now understand the importance of validating.  
It is totally nonsense. How is it possible not to blame distraction and distractors? Heh?

A new promising technology naturally faces challenges and obstacles, whose responsibility is to keep it safe and secure other than its community and the devs? And how they should be judged when they have failed to focus on the main issues?

Quote
Just because you perceive pools and ASICs to be the most prevalent issues in Bitcoin, it doesn't mean you get to convince yourself that everyone else thinks that too.  
What do you mean by I "perceive"? It is no joke! We are talking about decentralization for the Christ sake!

How do you "perceive" issues in bitcoin? How anything could be ever "perceived" more important than centralization threats?

Pools were swallowing hashrate and slavering miners on one side and ASICs were eliminating commodity hardware and ordinary people from mining scene and you and your genius devs were "perceiving" some more important issues worth focusing and spending your resources on?  

Apparently the word 'distraction' is somehow missing from your dictionary, to help you grabing it:

I'm blaming bitcoin community and its devs for being in a mental state in which they have lost focus and misjudgingly devoted their resources to issues not of vital importance at the same time that we have been and still we are face to face with critical centralization challenges. It is called distraction in plain English, add it to your dictionary.
 
 
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
The main focus should be mining full nodes which have been slaughtered out by pools and coffin nailed by ASICs while we were debating block size and SW to have LN running.

Right... so now everything else is to blame except for the actual cause?  SegWit and Lighting have no relevance to this matter whatsoever.  The economic incentive was there, so some people took advantage.  That's all there is to it.  It also bit them in the ass in 2015 when they got it wrong and cost themselves money by building on the wrong chain.  So perhaps they learned something and will be less likely to make the same mistake again.  The network is resilient enough for it not to be a major issue.  Whatever we were debating in the community at the time, it wouldn't have changed a thing.  The miners tried taking a shortcut and paid the price for their lapse in judgement.  They should now understand the importance of validating.  Just because you perceive pools and ASICs to be the most prevalent issues in Bitcoin, it doesn't mean you get to convince yourself that everyone else thinks that too.  For a seemingly smart person, you do say some dumb things.  Stick to the math, you seem to be good at that.  Reasoning, not so much.  
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1177
Always remember the cause!
There are no incentives, except that running your own node makes you not trust anyone in the network to make or validate your transactions for you. But who said decentralization would have no costs?
The original design of bitcoin is not based on such a weak incentive, keeping track of one's own wallet. It is solvable for mid-sized transactions and wallets by connecting to a handful of reputable nodes, running a spv wallet.

The main focus should be mining full nodes which have been slaughtered out by pools and coffin nailed by ASICs while we were debating block size and SW to have LN running.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
There are no incentives, except that running your own node makes you not trust anyone in the network to make or validate your transactions for you. But who said decentralization would have no costs?
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1177
Always remember the cause!
Well Ive been reading this thread over and I don't quite understand what is the purpose of running a node?
Don't worry, not your fault .   Wink

Basically, with bitcoin mining dominated by pools there are very few incentives left for running a bitcoin full node.

I suppose we are short in courage to face it, too.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
Paying someone to run nodes (or running one yourself on a third party controlled VPS service like amazon or digital ocean, for that matter) wouldn't serve much of a purpose.

I don't understand why? Amazon or any digital third party doesn't do it on their consent, nor do they do it for their convenience but it's us who do it (or can do it) and we can use VPN services to stop being watched by them that we are doing this, that too anonymously, and as well, is there anything illegal in doing like this?
There's nothing illegal about it. There is just no real benefit to the network if many or all nodes are running on VPS services like AWS. All of those nodes are using the same block of IP addresses. They are likely hosted in the same data centers, so they are centralized in both the same digital region (IP address blocks) and the same physical region (datacenter location). Furthermore, if Amazon or DIgitalOcean decided that they didn't want people running Bitcoin nodes on their VPSes, they could shut down those VPSes and take off a large portion of the network. Thus having many nodes on VPSes with the same VPS providers does not really contribute to the decentralization of the network and is similar to just one node being run.

Plus running a node in "the cloud" is running it in someone else's computer, not the hardware that you control and manage. Technically you are not verifying and relaying anything in the network.
sr. member
Activity: 728
Merit: 255
Well Ive been reading this thread over and I don't quite understand what is the purpose of running a node? I know with POS you get coins so there is incentive there but what would be the point of running a btc node besides to further the decentralization idealogy?
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1966
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Paying someone to run nodes (or running one yourself on a third party controlled VPS service like amazon or digital ocean, for that matter) wouldn't serve much of a purpose.

I beg to differ. You will still have those people with enough resources and bandwidth to keep it decentralized. I want to add to that group, by giving people with local bandwidth and resource issues a platform to contribute to this important service.

These people would not necessarily be running a full node, because of these problems, but they can now contribute financially to run a full node, by just funding the people who can do this.

I have some friends in some rural areas with very bad internet and they desperately want to contribute, but the local infrastructure issues, stop them from doing that.

This does not mean that we would have only 1 organization doing this in 1 location.  

Your position assumes there is a contribution created by running more nodes on Amazon. There isn't, for the most part.  Effectively, paying amazon to run more nodes is just funding a benign sybil attack by Amazon on the network.

I'm well aware that there are parts of the world where it is prohibitively expensive to run a node-- thats part of the reason why efforts like the satellite broadcast of Bitcoin exist.  But just because there is a problem doesn't mean that any particular alternative is a solution.

Just because someone takes on a cost does not mean they are making a useful contribution.  The first node on amazon was a useful contribution, perhaps you could argue that one in each availability zone is a contribution, but we're vastly beyond that, and adding more nodes on amazon mostly just improves the ability to monitor traffic without being noticed for amazon and sybil attackers who purchase their services.


No, my idea is actually not focussed on large companies like Amazon, because they are centralized and if they decide to shutdown all nodes, then we will lose a huge amount of nodes. I was thinking more of some individuals or smaller merchants with enough resources to help with this.

Let's say a small merchant in an developed country wants to host a full node and they have the resources, but they want someone else to pay for it, then this would be an ideal match. You create a website that brings the two parties together and you find someone to validate the merchant in some way.

I am just brainstorming some way to bring two parties together, that might help to increase decentralization of nodes. I never even considered that it must be one centralized organization. You bring them together and you provide a Bitcoin address, where people can donate money for the full nodes and then you monitor the partnership.  Undecided
staff
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8951
Paying someone to run nodes (or running one yourself on a third party controlled VPS service like amazon or digital ocean, for that matter) wouldn't serve much of a purpose.

I beg to differ. You will still have those people with enough resources and bandwidth to keep it decentralized. I want to add to that group, by giving people with local bandwidth and resource issues a platform to contribute to this important service.

These people would not necessarily be running a full node, because of these problems, but they can now contribute financially to run a full node, by just funding the people who can do this.

I have some friends in some rural areas with very bad internet and they desperately want to contribute, but the local infrastructure issues, stop them from doing that.

This does not mean that we would have only 1 organization doing this in 1 location.  

Your position assumes there is a contribution created by running more nodes on Amazon. There isn't, for the most part.  Effectively, paying amazon to run more nodes is just funding a benign sybil attack by Amazon on the network.

I'm well aware that there are parts of the world where it is prohibitively expensive to run a node-- thats part of the reason why efforts like the satellite broadcast of Bitcoin exist.  But just because there is a problem doesn't mean that any particular alternative is a solution.

Just because someone takes on a cost does not mean they are making a useful contribution.  The first node on amazon was a useful contribution, perhaps you could argue that one in each availability zone is a contribution, but we're vastly beyond that, and adding more nodes on amazon mostly just improves the ability to monitor traffic without being noticed for amazon and sybil attackers who purchase their services.
staff
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6793
Just writing some code
Paying someone to run nodes (or running one yourself on a third party controlled VPS service like amazon or digital ocean, for that matter) wouldn't serve much of a purpose.

I don't understand why? Amazon or any digital third party doesn't do it on their consent, nor do they do it for their convenience but it's us who do it (or can do it) and we can use VPN services to stop being watched by them that we are doing this, that too anonymously, and as well, is there anything illegal in doing like this?
There's nothing illegal about it. There is just no real benefit to the network if many or all nodes are running on VPS services like AWS. All of those nodes are using the same block of IP addresses. They are likely hosted in the same data centers, so they are centralized in both the same digital region (IP address blocks) and the same physical region (datacenter location). Furthermore, if Amazon or DIgitalOcean decided that they didn't want people running Bitcoin nodes on their VPSes, they could shut down those VPSes and take off a large portion of the network. Thus having many nodes on VPSes with the same VPS providers does not really contribute to the decentralization of the network and is similar to just one node being run.
legendary
Activity: 3052
Merit: 1273
Paying someone to run nodes (or running one yourself on a third party controlled VPS service like amazon or digital ocean, for that matter) wouldn't serve much of a purpose.

I don't understand why? Amazon or any digital third party doesn't do it on their consent, nor do they do it for their convenience but it's us who do it (or can do it) and we can use VPN services to stop being watched by them that we are doing this, that too anonymously, and as well, is there anything illegal in doing like this?
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1966
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
Why can we not have services where people make donations to a global company with enough resources to host these full nodes for them. , like we have with Cloud mining.
This completely misses the point.  If one doesn't care about decentralization the whole of the bitcoin system can run on a _single_ node there isn't need for multiple nodes (much less many) but for decentralization purposes.

Paying someone to run nodes (or running one yourself on a third party controlled VPS service like amazon or digital ocean, for that matter) wouldn't serve much of a purpose.

I beg to differ. You will still have those people with enough resources and bandwidth to keep it decentralized. I want to add to that group, by giving people with local bandwidth and resource issues a platform to contribute to this important service.

These people would not necessarily be running a full node, because of these problems, but they can now contribute financially to run a full node, by just funding the people who can do this.

I have some friends in some rural areas with very bad internet and they desperately want to contribute, but the local infrastructure issues, stop them from doing that.

This does not mean that we would have only 1 organization doing this in 1 location.  
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
A non-mining full node is just a liability because of its costs and very small benefits only a few of bitcoin whales have a practical incentive to run such a node, average holders are more likely to choose running a spv wallet.
I don't disagree with your point on people running SPV wallets for their convenience but I do fail to see how non-mining full nodes can be a liability. It's not too expensive to be running a full node; old harddisk, spare computer/even raspberry pi would be enough. If you care about Bitcoin, running a full node should be something on your mind. It gives you security advantages over SPV clients and helps the network by validating blocks and transactions.

SPV client relies on full nodes, mining or not. An abundance of full nodes does, at the very least, help to alleviate the risk of a sybil attack on SPV clients and that is beneficial for all.
It is not just about hardware costs. You should also take into consideration the hidden costs of administration and maintenance as well. It would be pointless to have a full node that is not guaranteed to be available 24*7 with 99.9% uptime.

I personally run a full node for R&D purposes, some people may do it for altruistic purposes but very few people have a real incentive for maintaining a full node. Unfortunately and ironically running a full node for mining related purposes is in the bottom of the list because of the pools.



Bandwidth is the biggest issue for me. I know my ISP uses bandwidth throttling once I have reached my quota of data downloaded in one month. But it is not too bad.

I will keep running it for as long as my pocket can support it.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
You are unbelievably wrong: Shocked
Mining nodes are the most important full nodes because not only they validate the blockchain they actively participate in building and maintaining it. A miner without a full node is not a real miner as I said s/he is just a slave who has no clue about what is going on in the network.

Actually mining full nodes are critical components of bitcoin security. Unfortunately there is no concrete statistics to show how many people are participating in mining right now but the number of mining full nodes is definitively very low, it is because of pools and the alienation of miners from the actual process by them.

A non-mining full node is just a liability because of its costs and very small benefits only a few of bitcoin whales have a practical incentive to run such a node, average holders are more likely to choose running a spv wallet.

I got what you said now.

You are saying that we would have more full nodes, if all miners had an incentive to have a full node.

I do not agree with that, as miners should not waste their computer resources running a full node. Forcing nodes to invest in hardware and internet connection to run a full node will make mining even more expensive (and harder for new people to join) than it is now. It may cause a bigger problem. Even higher mining centralization.

My stance is somewhere in the middle.  It's not realistic to expect all miners to run a full node, but it's not safe if none of them do.  There have been past problems with miners not bothering to validate transactions correctly.  In 2015, careless SPV-mining led to a brief fork.  If a majority of the hashrate skips validation, it sometimes doesn't end well.  It's better if there are "enough" miners running full nodes, but it's anyone's best guess (or perhaps a skilled mathematician's calculations) to determine what number constitutes "enough".  
newbie
Activity: 11
Merit: 0
As far as I know the quality is always better than the number. The number of buttons involved may be low but at least is still active exciting. Do not be too worried about this because bitcoin prices are changing day by day without impact. by number. So, we continue to support bitcoin, when bitcoin grows and attracts more participants?
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1177
Always remember the cause!
You are unbelievably wrong: Shocked
Mining nodes are the most important full nodes because not only they validate the blockchain they actively participate in building and maintaining it. A miner without a full node is not a real miner as I said s/he is just a slave who has no clue about what is going on in the network.

I do not agree with that, as miners should not waste their computer resources running a full node. Forcing nodes to invest in hardware and internet connection to run a full node will make mining even more expensive (and harder for new people to join) than it is now. It may cause a bigger problem. Even higher mining centralization.
Seriously dude. It is no joke. A miner without a full node is a malicious entity. It is not part of the Plain Old Satoshi Bitcoin. It is made from greed and ignorance.

Quote
From what I understand, managed pool will have just one (or a few) full nodes, then miners would just come with their processing power.

I found this by Andreas Antonoupolos on the subject

The pool server runs specialized software and a pool-mining protocol that coordinate the activities of the pool miners. The pool server is also connected to one or more full bitcoin nodes and has direct access to a full copy of the blockchain database. This allows the pool server to validate blocks and transactions on behalf of the pool miners, relieving them of the burden of running a full node. For pool miners, this is an important consideration, because a full node requires a dedicated computer with at least 100 to 150 GB of persistent storage (disk) and at least 2 to 4 GB of memory (RAM). Furthermore, the bitcoin software running on the full node needs to be monitored, maintained, and upgraded frequently. Any downtime caused by a lack of maintenance or lack of resources will hurt the miner’s profitability. For many miners, the ability to mine without running a full node is another big benefit of joining a managed pool.
https://github.com/bitcoinbook/bitcoinbook/blob/develop/ch10.asciidoc#managed-pools


Antonopoulos is joking. He says a lot of bullshit, fuck pools.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 4418
Crypto Swap Exchange
It is not just about hardware costs. You should also take into consideration the hidden costs of administration and maintenance as well. It would be pointless to have a full node that is not guaranteed to be available 24*7 with 99.9% uptime.
Personally, running a full node is pretty hassle free. I do update it occasionally and leave it to run by itself for majority of the time. I've never had any downtime and the set up was fairly quick. For Windows, Bitcoin Core is literally just a simple program install and Unix systems do have a script to use.

It's not exactly pointless to run your node for only a few hours at a time. When you run a full node that allows inbound connections, you are still allowing others to use your node to synchronize or as a node for their SPV client. It could potentially still help to strengthen the network and help others to sync. Doesn't seem like it has downsides to it. When you turn it off, nodes will simply find another peer to connect to.

You are saying that we would have more full nodes, if all miners had an incentive to have a full node.

I do not agree with that, as miners should not waste their computer resources running a full node. Forcing nodes to invest in hardware and internet connection to run a full node will make mining even more expensive (and harder for new people to join) than it is now. It may cause a bigger problem. Even higher mining centralization.

From what I understand, managed pool will have just one (or a few) full nodes, then miners would just come with their processing power.
To be fair, while its definitely very beneficial for the network to have more hashpower to secure it, the centralisation of the mining power isn't all that great. Not all of the pools listen to their users and they are free to choose whichever transaction to mine, amongst other things. The mining industry is extremely stagnated right now and it seems impossible for anyone new to join.

legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 6089
bitcoindata.science
You are unbelievably wrong: Shocked
Mining nodes are the most important full nodes because not only they validate the blockchain they actively participate in building and maintaining it. A miner without a full node is not a real miner as I said s/he is just a slave who has no clue about what is going on in the network.

Actually mining full nodes are critical components of bitcoin security. Unfortunately there is no concrete statistics to show how many people are participating in mining right now but the number of mining full nodes is definitively very low, it is because of pools and the alienation of miners from the actual process by them.

A non-mining full node is just a liability because of its costs and very small benefits only a few of bitcoin whales have a practical incentive to run such a node, average holders are more likely to choose running a spv wallet.

I got what you said now.

You are saying that we would have more full nodes, if all miners had an incentive to have a full node.

I do not agree with that, as miners should not waste their computer resources running a full node. Forcing nodes to invest in hardware and internet connection to run a full node will make mining even more expensive (and harder for new people to join) than it is now. It may cause a bigger problem. Even higher mining centralization.

From what I understand, managed pool will have just one (or a few) full nodes, then miners would just come with their processing power.

I found this by Andreas Antonoupolos on the subject

The pool server runs specialized software and a pool-mining protocol that coordinate the activities of the pool miners. The pool server is also connected to one or more full bitcoin nodes and has direct access to a full copy of the blockchain database. This allows the pool server to validate blocks and transactions on behalf of the pool miners, relieving them of the burden of running a full node. For pool miners, this is an important consideration, because a full node requires a dedicated computer with at least 100 to 150 GB of persistent storage (disk) and at least 2 to 4 GB of memory (RAM). Furthermore, the bitcoin software running on the full node needs to be monitored, maintained, and upgraded frequently. Any downtime caused by a lack of maintenance or lack of resources will hurt the miner’s profitability. For many miners, the ability to mine without running a full node is another big benefit of joining a managed pool.
https://github.com/bitcoinbook/bitcoinbook/blob/develop/ch10.asciidoc#managed-pools
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1177
Always remember the cause!
A non-mining full node is just a liability because of its costs and very small benefits only a few of bitcoin whales have a practical incentive to run such a node, average holders are more likely to choose running a spv wallet.
I don't disagree with your point on people running SPV wallets for their convenience but I do fail to see how non-mining full nodes can be a liability. It's not too expensive to be running a full node; old harddisk, spare computer/even raspberry pi would be enough. If you care about Bitcoin, running a full node should be something on your mind. It gives you security advantages over SPV clients and helps the network by validating blocks and transactions.

SPV client relies on full nodes, mining or not. An abundance of full nodes does, at the very least, help to alleviate the risk of a sybil attack on SPV clients and that is beneficial for all.
It is not just about hardware costs. You should also take into consideration the hidden costs of administration and maintenance as well. It would be pointless to have a full node that is not guaranteed to be available 24*7 with 99.9% uptime.

I personally run a full node for R&D purposes, some people may do it for altruistic purposes but very few people have a real incentive for maintaining a full node. Unfortunately and ironically running a full node for mining related purposes is in the bottom of the list because of the pools.

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