Topic: [Total privacy Bitcoin]: off grid Transactions LoRaWan/goTenna (Read 471 times)

All consumer hardware is not meant to be deployed in a dense mesh, as eventually it will fail to deliver good performance, having a huge packet loss, since a small SBC wont properly handle a big routing table.


To compare this situation to a common ISP setup: everybody needs to interconnect by using BGP protocol, having a full routing table of about 1M routes to reach every other ISP, this generally means having a good CPU + lot of RAM (=expensive racks hosted in interconnected datacenters) to support concurrent connections of many ISP subscribers/client. This structure works because ISPs act as gateway, keeping the burden of having a full routing table outside the customer equipment.

Having a global mesh that connects within users and not within ISPs would mean a routing table a lot larger than 1M routes, not something a low power ARM will be capable of.

The solutions posted on this thread, like GoTenna, have similar limitations or are better equipped to scale? Dedicated hardware should work better, or am I oversimplifing?

I've studied mesh networks for a couple of years, also by checking the latest research done by the battlemesh team with their yearly events.

The resume is that even for low traffic, a true mesh doesn't scale well after 50-60 routers (retail hardware, generally tp link, and modded firmware with different protocols, like batman or ospf).

An interesting solution with low frequency networks could be boxes near state borders, to create physical gateways in case a state would decide to firewall or limit outbound WAN connections. A user could sign his transaction and broadcast it with a low frequency radio connection, to be able to do it also with a 40-50 km distance.

Agree. Having a blockstream satellite dish should be on any bitcoin übernerd. So I don’t completely rule out installing one one day.
Regarding bitcoin as official mars currency, I am afraid the supreme leader has different plans:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1284291528328790016?s=21

I mean doesn't this pretty much confirm that when we start colonizing mars in 10 years time that Bitcoin will be the official currency of the colonists, and the martians born there will not even know what cash is unless its specifically taught through the mars education system. In all seriousness, its a pretty cool gimmicky event to say we've done.

Still on this topic:
they have sent the first bitcoin from the space down to Earth, using the internet only to rely the transaction to the receiver:

https://twitter.com/Excellion/status/1284318570659233792

Still on this topic:
they have sent the first bitcoin from the space down to Earth, using the internet only to rely the transaction to the receiver:

https://twitter.com/Excellion/status/1284318570659233792

I just notice it recently that you've replied to my thread in Pilipinas Board. Thanks for linking my own thread to serve as another reference about LoraWAN.
It still exists but the software don't have updates anymore. There are new mesh wifi system exists today, especially those implemented by Huawei and cisco.

there was also another mesh wifi system years ago, called daihinia.com

maybe does not exist anymore.

I am quite aware, I also said that while LoRa/LoRaWan is an open source protocol, goTenna is a closed solution.
So, yes, I could rephrase that I am proposing an open protocol OR a commercial solution, this distinction was pretty clear in my mind, but I might have failed to better communicate this.

Also, thanks for the sumup on the mesh networks.

Are you even aware that goTenna is just some American company and not (really) a technology?

The idea of a mesh data network started with an MIT project called roofnet. From that came something else and then a company called Meraki which was later bought by an even bigger company. But, a Free Open Source protocol also came out from it: open-mesh.

This is the software to build a mesh ad-hoc network. The idea is that all the wifi routers connect to each other, and people with internet can share it with everybody else much further away (as many hops as needed) by giving internet access to their device. Once you have that, you can do anything else like running Bitcoin nodes (which won't have stellar latency, mind you, this is a high latency network), you could even do that over tor for added security.

LoRa (LongRange) IS a technology developed by some company in France. They use lower bands, which tend to reach longer distances. Unfortunately the availability of these bands change from country to country "433 MHz, 868 MHz (Europe), 915 MHz (Australia and North America) and 923 MHz (Asia)."

This sounds great when you need to cover long distances (such as from a city to a town) as long as there aren't many obstacles (such as a mountain) in the way. Of course, there have been experiments using 2.4 (wifi) doing really long distances using unidirectional high gain (large dish) antennas. But i guess using this technology aiming the thing would be much easier.

Looking at the news with this current ...I don't know how you can call it, let's say mild madness syndrome if the stores won't be able to re-stock, you won't be able to buy anything cause there won't be anything to buy. 
We're talking about a doomsday scenario, right? With the internet and cellular coverage down.
The only guys that will be willing to trade in those times will be those that will trade your goods for your life .

I consider it a neat idea, hope there will be improvement in both what it can do and coverage but in case of an emergency...I won't be putting to much fate in it.

The flaw I see in it is that some need to still have internet access for this to happen, I doubt only one access point can provide enough bandwidth for a city of 100k-200k, and how will this individual be connected to the net?

Again, I'm a noob in this but assuming Spain  is cut off.
Will all the messages be relayed from tenna to tenna till the border and hope that there will be enough capacity between point so at least 1% of the population has some kind of access?
Because on the specs page I see this:

And it's even worse for tx tenna

Again, nice idea, but for a doomsday scenario, it needs serious range and capacity improvements.

Also bear in mind that mesh network, and goTenna in particular, can be used as emergency radio, not only to broadcast bitcoin transactions, but also mails, voice messsages, GPS coordinates.

To other people in your the local community. You obviously aren't having any goods shipped in from elsewhere, but there will still be buyers and sellers locally trading the essentials. There will still be a need to buy food, water, batteries, tools, and so on. If the internet is inaccessible then so is the fiat banking system, and you can't just use a goTenna network to withdraw some cash. Some people might have some cash in hand they can spend, some people might want to barter with other goods and services rather than use money at all, but some people might want to use bitcoin.

goTenna is a true mesh network (while LoRaWan isn't, as there isn't relay between receivers), so you need to be in range to another node, not necessarily connected to the network, but what you need is a series of noded where only the "last" one is connected to the internet.
Lorawan has wider range, and this might overcome other mimitations.

If that happens in Australia, Japan or the Uk you're just as f%^%  
Same for an evil gubbermint blockade, who are you going to send your bitcoins to and for what?

Yeah, it's a nice solution, it's a good back-up in case something totally wrong happens but let's think how this works in reality

So, you have no cellular coverage, you have no internet and you decide to send some bitcoins to an address....for?
Remember, you're cut off from the world, you can't speak with people over the phone over the internet you can't order anything online, you don't even know the price of BTC. To whom and why would you send bitcoins during these times?

In my opinion, those things are more useful when you forget to pay your ISP bill or some idiot has cut a tree and destroyed a few cables and poles.

Ahh, I misunderstood you then. Your mention of a global pandemic made me think you were referring to a global telecommunications failure. In that case, you are absolutely right. If there is some widespread but local issue affecting your internet access, then technologies such as these are potential solutions to continue using bitcoin.

Obviously the draw back of these systems is that you still need somebody to connect to. goTenna devices have a max range of about 3 to 4 miles over open terrain, and much shorter than that in built up areas. You can see a map of goTenna nodes here: https://imeshyou.gotennamesh.com/. If you live anywhere other than a major city, chances are you are not in range of a node.

I didn't think to a GLOBAL issue affecting the internet, while writing the above statement, but rather to a regional, statewide blackout.
In case of a global internet blackout, I think yes I do agree, it was something I read about years ago: many concurrent chains, some emergency protocol forks to make blocks move again due to very high difficulty due to lack (or segregation) of miners. Interesting, but out of scope here.

Slight correction here. Bitcoin still needs the internet to function. You can use a system like goTenna when you personally don't have internet access, to send your transaction to someone or some device which does have internet access, to broadcast on your behalf. If a global event knocks out the internet, then local networks like this will not be of much use. You could theoretically set up a local network with its own nodes and miners to continue using bitcoin locally, but the difficulty would be so high that you would probably be unable to mine any blocks. Even if you did mine some blocks, when internet access was re-established and your nodes connected back to the main bitcoin blockchain, all your blocks would probably be invalidated by a longer chain from another source.

Recently I have been reading news about Mnuchin willing to impose stricter regulations on Bitcoin:

US Financial Crimes Watchdog Preparing ‘Significant’ Crypto Rules, Warns Treasury Secretary Mnuchin


Or again, I read comments on the Wall Observer thread about what you need to run in case of a CoronaVirus Outbreak.

Of course a Bitcoin full node.

But how do you connect to the bitcoin network when you are off the grid because a global pandemic has destroyed the telecommunication infrastructure and/or the government controls every internet traffic?
Or, in a more less dystopian scenario: how can you transact bitcoin in case of lack of cellular coverage?

Well, there are a couple of solution for this: LoRaWan and goTenna.
These are two similar solutions, but even if they share some common background they are profoundly different in implementation and philosopy approach.

Let's have a look at those two solutions:

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If we go to the official LoRaWwan website we obtain a lot of useful informations:
(minor edits to ease readability)


Researching a well written document, we understand mode:




So LoRaWan is the software layer, while LoRa is underlying the hardware.


A LoRaWan network is composed by nodes who transmits data only when they have to, and only when a gateway is available. This is an asynchronous communication protocol, who doesn't need the nodes to check for a gateway, like cellphones do, thus saving incredible quantity of power.

Of course everything is cryptographic ally encrypted, both at network and at application level.
My italian fellow Valerio Vaccaro did a nice LoRaWan presentation at Understanding Bitcoin 2019 in Malta:

Understanding Bitcoin, The Demos: How To Become A Bitcoin Power User

Here's the Video.
https://youtu.be/l2iv2MiGaYI

You can find his Github here

In this video we understand that LoraWan bandwidth is really limited: you can basically use it to send or a few byte (like transactions of bitcoin blocks header), but we need some bigger band devices to run a node off grid. So someone suggested the idea to use it in conjunction with a Salellite receiver, so that we have a full bitcoin environment without any internet connection and full privacy.

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Also in this case a lot of informations can be found at their website: https://gotennamesh.com/products/mesh
But I think the best way of learning about this technology is watching  a very good presentation from Richard Myers demoing a live bitcoin transaction from the Understanding Bitcoin Conference 2019 (incidentally the same panel as before):

https://youtu.be/l2iv2MiGaYI?t=26750


Again this technology works better when coupled with Blockstream satellite:

HOW TO MESH THE WORLD: GOTENNA MESH + TXTENNA + BLOCKSTREAM SATELLITES


As we can see this technology is a little bit behind LoRraWan as per implementation and service coverage:
 

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This is a very very quick overview of these two systems.
LoRaWan is a somewhat established reality, even if it is not a proper mesh network.
goTenna is trying to deploy a mesh and decentralised network, but it somewhat a startup trying to bootstrap a new reality.
Also main differences are the fact that while LoRaWan is completely open source, goTenna is a proprietary solution, closed to external auditing.
Basically LoRa/LoRaWan is a free networking protocol, while gTenna is a commercial product.
Another difference is that LoRaWan isn't technically a mesh network, as there isn't any relay between LoRaWan receivers, while goTenna is based a proper mesh network.

These are both technologies not ready for mass adoptions, and this is more true when considering that they are bot inadequate to handle the data required to run a bitcoin node, an essential prerequisite for fiscal independence and monetary sovereignty, probably needing a satellite connection to achieve this in a privacy oriented environment.
 

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While researching for this article I found a thread on this very topic here on the Philippino Board.
Bitcoin Transaction without Internet.
Maybe finaleshot2016 had my same idea!