Tradehill - lawsuit waiting to happen - page 2.

tvbcof

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Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 02:09:22 AM

Quote from: Jered Kenna (TradeHill) on July 23, 2011, 02:04:40 AM

Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 01:47:39 AM

One more question for Jered:

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

Adam, from the same wikipedia page:

Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".

Seems like pretty weak sauce dude.

Where's anything about anything Illegal which seems, accd to the (admittedly non-authoritative) Wikipedia, to be the defining element of money laundering?

Insofar as 'bearer instruments', what's the distinction between the wire transfer or Dwolla, Bitcoin, or the Chilean peso withdrawals?

I imagine that most everyone agrees that if there 'illegally obtained money' being moved around, the crime should be investigated and it's my guess and expectation that Tradehill would cooperate fully (probably it is in their TOS...I've forgotten.) I see nothing illegal about Tradehill's business, and the I know first hand that in the dealings I have had with them, there was nothing illegal on my end of things.

I would say you are shooting blanks so far. Perhaps some high-powered para-legal could jump onto Wikipedia and straighten them out if they have got it wrong.

error

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Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 02:25:45 AM

Quote from: Jered Kenna (TradeHill) on July 23, 2011, 02:16:37 AM

Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

Haha funny, not! You guys are quoting wikipedia instead of sharing some concrete legal details.

So I will pull back and just ask one single question before I go to sleep:

Jered and Adam, can you unequivocally claim that your set up to send money between multiple countries is 100% legal? Remember, this is a public forum so your answer will be stored here for ever, if you choose to ever answer my question!

GN!

I'm not your attorney, but I can guarantee with 100% certainty that your attorney will tell you not to answer that.

I can also guarantee that nobody, anywhere on this planet, can say truthfully that they didn't break a law today.

OrangeSun

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Quote from: Jered Kenna (TradeHill) on July 23, 2011, 02:16:37 AM

Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

Haha funny, not! You guys are quoting wikipedia instead of sharing some concrete legal details.

So I will pull back and just ask one single question before I go to sleep:

Jered and Adam, can you unequivocally claim that your set up to send money between multiple countries is 100% legal? Remember, this is a public forum so your answer will be stored here for ever, if you choose to ever answer my question!

GN!

OrangeSun

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Quote from: error on July 23, 2011, 02:16:49 AM

Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 02:15:00 AM

Quote from: error on July 23, 2011, 02:12:57 AM

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to be send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.

And why wouldn't it be?!

I guess I am still used to the old thinking that you have to be a bank to send money internationally, and register with ton of different agencies.

error

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Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 02:15:00 AM

Quote from: error on July 23, 2011, 02:12:57 AM

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to be send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.

And why wouldn't it be?!

Jered Kenna (TradeHill)

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Is this Senator Schumer?

Jered

OrangeSun

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Quote from: error on July 23, 2011, 02:12:57 AM

Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

I guess I am still thinking aloud.. but it will really help if Adam or Jered can share some details about their legal agreements that allow them to send money from one country to other, and still be perfectly legal.

error

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Are you trying to make a point, or are you just throwing out random irrelevant facts?

OrangeSun

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Quote from: Jered Kenna (TradeHill) on July 23, 2011, 02:04:40 AM

Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 01:47:39 AM

One more question for Jered:

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

Adam, from the same wikipedia page:

Structuring: Often known as "smurfing," it is a method of placement by which cash is broken into smaller deposits of money, used to defeat suspicion of money laundering and to avoid anti-money laundering reporting requirements. A sub-component of this is to use smaller amounts of cash to purchase bearer instruments, such as money orders, and then ultimately deposit those, again in small amounts.[4]

Bitcoin can be considered a "Bearer Instrument".

Jered Kenna (TradeHill)

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Merit: 250

Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 01:47:39 AM

One more question for Jered:

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?

Hi OrangeSun,

There is nothing illegal about transferring money around the global for international business.

The definition of money laundering is :"Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money. Ultimately, it is the process by which the proceeds of crime are made to appear legitimate."

Since we are not engaged in illegal activities, and we are not trying to conceal the source of our funds, then we are not money laundering.

For more info, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Regards,
Adam

tvbcof

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Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 01:47:39 AM

One more question for Jered:

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?

A question which strikes me as at least equally valid:

How is this money laundering?

(This is actually a serious question, BTW.)

Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 01:47:39 AM

I agree bitcoin can be global, borderless. But exchanges will have to be LOCAL! International exchange accepting 22 currencies is hard to prove as a legal operation.

OrangeSun

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Quote from: Chick on July 23, 2011, 01:36:59 AM

You don't have to file as a entity before you do business. You can simply be considered as a sole proprietorship (in the US), and that doesn't require filing any documents (in some states).

Sad troll OP is sad...

I know you can do a business without registering as long as you pay taxes on profit.

But we are talking Bitcoins here. A personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.

PS: Don't use troll label so liberally.

Jered Kenna (TradeHill)

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Quote from: OrangeSun on July 23, 2011, 01:40:12 AM

Jered - thanks for answering this thread. Personal bank account / sole proprietorship is of course not a problem. Contractors all across the country do this.

But all I am trying to say is that using personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.

I'm a US citizen. I own both companies. The Chilean company provides support to the US company.
They both pay taxes.

I've explained it well enough.

Jered

Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering
Money laundering is the practice of disguising the origins of illegally-obtained money.

That has nothing to do with moving it internationally.

OrangeSun

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One more question for Jered:

Deposit USD with Dwolla -> Buy Bitcoin -> Sell Bitcoin -> Withdraw Pesos in Chile

How is this not money laundering?

I agree bitcoin can be global, borderless. But exchanges will have to be LOCAL! International exchange accepting 22 currencies is hard to prove as a legal operation.

TraderTimm

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I think paralegals should get back to bate-stamping, processing documents from discovery and all that wonderful stuff their bosses make them do over the weekend.

Unless you've passed the bar exam, don't come here with your sensationalist legal tripe.

Thanks.

error

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I would much rather deal with honest businesspeople than people who hide behind the law.

tvbcof

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Not sure who would sue Tradehill, or for what, but it does not concern me all that much...most of the funds I sent them underwent a transformation and bounced right back to my wallet.dat.

If a lawsuit resulted in their accounts (with my money) being frozen, that would suck but that family of problems was a calculated risk I took before sending them a dime.

If a lawsuit did not result in their accounts (with my money) being frozen, it is unlikely that the Tradehill guys would see their problems getting any better by absconding with what funds of mine they do control.

My general feeling vis-a-vis the fledgling businesses being built around Bitcoin is that they seem to be being started and run by pretty straight-up folks based on Wagner's show, their contributions to the forum, etc. I've no doubt that they are generally 'fragile', but even if that is the case it does not concern me a whole lot. I feel I have vastly more control of my assets when doing business with Bitcoin than with most other instruments these days.

OrangeSun

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Quote from: Jered Kenna (TradeHill) on July 23, 2011, 01:35:13 AM

OrangeSun,

Using a personal bank account isn't illegal. When TradeHill proved to be a viable business I opened a business bank account.

I started TradeHill as a sole proprietorship, I didn't register "TradeHill" until 8 days after we opened. I've done a little research and you are correct, I violated this law: https://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/648.990
This is obviously viewable by the public and I'm not hiding it.

Here are the penalties:

648.990¹
Penalties
(1) Violation of any of the provisions of this chapter is punishable by a civil penalty not exceeding $100.

I accept full responsibility. I have no problem paying that fine in it's entirety.

Jered

Jered - thanks for answering this thread. Personal bank account / sole proprietorship is of course not a problem. Contractors all across the country do this.

But all I am trying to say is that using personal bank accounts on behalf of a chilean company to sell Bitcoins... lawyers can make this look really shady in a court.

imperi

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OP, you sound like quite the legal expert. How much do you charge, $12 per hour?

Chick

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You don't have to file as a entity before you do business. You can simply be considered as a sole proprietorship (in the US), and that doesn't require filing any documents (in some states).

Sad troll OP is sad...

Topic: Tradehill - lawsuit waiting to happen - page 2. (Read 7012 times)