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Topic: Transaction Fees are SPIKING ! - page 3. (Read 5736 times)

legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
February 28, 2017, 01:40:33 PM


You seem to be giving Greg to much credit.  It was Satoshi's idea to make the currency deflationary (eventually) by rolling from block reward to transaction fees as a means of funding the operational infrastructure.


...which would come into play several decades later.   Do you deny Greg has advocated for making blocksize a scarce resource and intentionally creating a fee market now?

Quote


As for 'corporate', I cannot think of anything more so than then Bitcoin bloating to the extend that only a handful of large corp/gov entities are able to operate it efficiently and profitably.  Such a scenerio is necessary for coin blacklisting/whitelisting and that seems to have been the primary objective of those who got the bloatchain idea rolling.

I think we agree that coin blacklisting/whitelisting would be bad.  But it seems to me that this would be just as likely (if not more likely) to occur due to institutional control of main chain transactions (the inevitable result of small blockism) versus institutional support of full nodes.  

If you disagree, I would at least listen to your argument.

As I see it, a healthy number of full nodes are good, but miners control what goes into blocks and mining is already commoditized and commercialized.  I don't see a problem with that.  But I do see a problem with institutions becoming gatekeepers of what and how transactions flow through the network in ways that are unknown and unpredictable.

  


legendary
Activity: 4690
Merit: 1276
February 28, 2017, 12:29:17 PM

You're 100% right.  What some people might not realize is that all this was done on purpose.  Greg Maxwell openly called for this so that a 'fee market could develop'.   Was this a terrible idea based on a corporate agenda?  Well, I think so. 

You seem to be giving Greg to much credit.  It was Satoshi's idea to make the currency deflationary (eventually) by rolling from block reward to transaction fees as a means of funding the operational infrastructure.

As for 'corporate', I cannot think of anything more so than then Bitcoin bloating to the extend that only a handful of large corp/gov entities are able to operate it efficiently and profitably.  Such a scenerio is necessary for coin blacklisting/whitelisting and that seems to have been the primary objective of those who got the bloatchain idea rolling.

hero member
Activity: 1330
Merit: 569
February 28, 2017, 11:04:17 AM
All time high for the transaction fees : https://bitcoinfees.info/

Now more than 50 cts for the 3 blocks fees !

The network is BLOATED and more people want to confirm transactions on the network.
The result is spiking transaction fees that might seriously hurt the network and its growth in 2017 if there is nothing done very quickly.
If nothing is done and transaction costs keep spiking, a lot of activity will move to cheaper rising networks like DASH. I am not saying it is a bad thing but Bitcoin is NOT well positioned right now at the technical level to benefit from its rise in popularity.



I can really relate with this as at the last time I made a transfer where I had it in mind of paying less that 20 cents  and to my utmost surprise, I ended up paying 84 cents for the transfer which calls for concern and this will go a long way in affecting the sending of micro-payments if it continues to go that way. I guess since there is nothing I can really do about it, I just have to gather all my coins and transfer at once rather than doing it in bits which might be the cost of transfer higher.
full member
Activity: 225
Merit: 100
February 28, 2017, 10:58:08 AM
If small numbers have to be sent, send to many people with good fee. Manage the number of payments somehow. That's what I do. Just don't let the fee be lowered, increase the number of receivers instead in a single transaction.
It is a good option if you are sending a lot of small amounts . What would a simple user like me who does not have a business deal do if the price of transaction keeps on increasing as i am not mining the coins and every bit of coin i own is purchased through exchanges and i am not sure how much profit i can make with it if you are transferring coins every now and then.
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1505
February 26, 2017, 06:54:25 PM
Its really weird for me to see people calling a few cents "spiking fees". I very recently sent someone more than a hundred dollars worth bitcoin with only a single dollar fee and it went smoother than ever.

This is not an issue, at least not now. Roll Eyes No need to create panic for it.
may not be too high if you send a lot of money using bitcoin, but what about someone who does small deals between 0.0005-0.01 btc. of course fee  0.0001 btc will only prolong your transactions?

Everyone should avoid single small values like those.

If small numbers have to be sent, send to many people with good fee. Manage the number of payments somehow. That's what I do. Just don't let the fee be lowered, increase the number of receivers instead in a single transaction.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
February 26, 2017, 06:42:13 PM
Its really weird for me to see people calling a few cents "spiking fees". I very recently sent someone more than a hundred dollars worth bitcoin with only a single dollar fee and it went smoother than ever.

This is not an issue, at least not now. Roll Eyes No need to create panic for it.
may not be too high if you send a lot of money using bitcoin, but what about someone who does small deals between 0.0005-0.01 btc. of course fee  0.0001 btc will only prolong your transactions?
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
February 26, 2017, 05:57:22 PM
think about the exchange fee and the price volatile (even for a couple minutes) ,
how much your money will get deducted?
i think the current fee still in the normal limit even you used a dynamic fee ,
i have no big issue with it until right now , too complicated when you have to convert the whole bitcoin to altcoin first.

Yeah. Even though Bitcoin fees have increased, it is still a lot less than using traditional payment processors like Western Union and MoneyGram. But still, it is something that would need to be solved quickly as the network would slow down, by the transaction load it would have.

We need scalable solutions fast, otherwise Bitcoin would become slower each day, and it would be more expensive for transactions to become confirmed. I hope that the miners, and the rest of the Bitcoin community would make the right decision, for the future of this breakthrough cryptocurrency. Just sharing my thoughts.  Smiley

You're 100% right.  What some people might not realize is that all this was done on purpose.  Greg Maxwell openly called for this so that a 'fee market could develop'.   Was this a terrible idea based on a corporate agenda?  Well, I think so. 
legendary
Activity: 3220
Merit: 1363
www.Crypto.Games: Multiple coins, multiple games
February 26, 2017, 05:42:30 PM
#99
think about the exchange fee and the price volatile (even for a couple minutes) ,
how much your money will get deducted?
i think the current fee still in the normal limit even you used a dynamic fee ,
i have no big issue with it until right now , too complicated when you have to convert the whole bitcoin to altcoin first.

Yeah. Even though Bitcoin fees have increased, it is still a lot less than using traditional payment processors like Western Union and MoneyGram. But still, it is something that would need to be solved quickly as the network would slow down, by the transaction load it would have.

We need scalable solutions fast, otherwise Bitcoin would become slower each day, and it would be more expensive for transactions to become confirmed. I hope that the miners, and the rest of the Bitcoin community would make the right decision, for the future of this breakthrough cryptocurrency. Just sharing my thoughts.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1004
February 26, 2017, 04:54:46 PM
#98
Use DOGE or LTC and when those blockchains become too large one day as well, just switch to something else.

That way altcoins can come and go, serve their purpose as virtual chump change, while BTC can grow as a store of value and larger payment vehicle.

The block size limitation is a PROTECTION for the blockchain and Bitcoin per se, mind you.  Smiley
This is not solution, it is a workaround. I don't see how using altcoins will help bitcoin. It will only help that specific altcoin you would be using.
Bitcoin is mainly used as store value asset right now but I am afraid that we might reach the point when users draw the wrong conclusion:
"So there is no no transactions/very little transactions on the blockchain, that is because bitcoin must be dying! Sell, sell, sell".
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 1505
February 26, 2017, 04:35:44 PM
#97
Its really weird for me to see people calling a few cents "spiking fees". I very recently sent someone more than a hundred dollars worth bitcoin with only a single dollar fee and it went smoother than ever.

This is not an issue, at least not now. Roll Eyes No need to create panic for it.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
February 26, 2017, 04:29:16 PM
#96
This is something I can confirm. I've never had serious problems with confirmation time until recently. In the past, I had already had to wait a few hours, but those were rare occasions. Lately I'm having to wait longer, and pay more for it.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1014
February 26, 2017, 04:23:12 PM
#95
There is a solution. Do not send 30k satoshis. Bitcoin is not a micropayment network, there are many alts and side channels for that. No fork

THIS

Use DOGE or LTC and when those blockchains become too large one day as well, just switch to something else.

That way altcoins can come and go, serve their purpose as virtual chump change, while BTC can grow as a store of value and larger payment vehicle.

The block size limitation is a PROTECTION for the blockchain and Bitcoin per se, mind you.  Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Bawga
February 26, 2017, 03:40:34 PM
#94
Guess it how much will high when bitcoin reach 21M limit. And also guess the condition no one will use bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
February 26, 2017, 03:25:04 PM
#93
All time high for the transaction fees : https://bitcoinfees.info/

Now more than 50 cts for the 3 blocks fees !

The network is BLOATED and more people want to confirm transactions on the network.
The result is spiking transaction fees that might seriously hurt the network and its growth in 2017 if there is nothing done very quickly.
If nothing is done and transaction costs keep spiking, a lot of activity will move to cheaper rising networks like DASH. I am not saying it is a bad thing but Bitcoin is NOT well positioned right now at the technical level to benefit from its rise in popularity.

This is good for Blockstream.  Now more people will need lightning and will pay Adam Back to let them conduct their transactions on his side chain.  This higher the fee, the better it is for Adam to start collecting fees on his private platform.  Keep it up.  Way up.

Will there not be competing Lighting networks?  which will actually make the fee market competitive and drive down price.
Lightning Network and SegWit at this point look like failed experiment and they won't be accepted. Free market means that Bitcoin transaction fees might be lowered only in case when people would boycott sending coins. Or all users would start to send lowered fees simultaneously, so miners can't chose which transaction push first. Realistically in our current situation fees won't be lowered.

I think the current situation can't last forever

I mean the situation where miners are basically dictating the prices for transactions and heavily abusing their power. If the prices are going to continue rising in the future, transacting through blockchain will make even less sense than now, and now we already have to sit on our hands until we can send substantial amounts, i.e. hundreds of dollars in Bitcoin terms per transaction. Even if Lightning Network and SegWit don't get accepted eventually, miners will still have to pay for their selfishness in the end. People will just start using off-chain transactions more through major payment hubs like web wallets, exchanges and exchangers
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 502
February 26, 2017, 03:16:15 PM
#92
All time high for the transaction fees : https://bitcoinfees.info/

Now more than 50 cts for the 3 blocks fees !

The network is BLOATED and more people want to confirm transactions on the network.
The result is spiking transaction fees that might seriously hurt the network and its growth in 2017 if there is nothing done very quickly.
If nothing is done and transaction costs keep spiking, a lot of activity will move to cheaper rising networks like DASH. I am not saying it is a bad thing but Bitcoin is NOT well positioned right now at the technical level to benefit from its rise in popularity.

This is good for Blockstream.  Now more people will need lightning and will pay Adam Back to let them conduct their transactions on his side chain.  This higher the fee, the better it is for Adam to start collecting fees on his private platform.  Keep it up.  Way up.

Will there not be competing Lighting networks?  which will actually make the fee market competitive and drive down price.
Lightning Network and SegWit at this point look like failed experiment and they won't be accepted. Free market means that Bitcoin transaction fees might be lowered only in case when people would boycott sending coins. Or all users would start to send lowered fees simultaneously, so miners can't chose which transaction push first. Realistically in our current situation fees won't be lowered.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1017
February 26, 2017, 03:08:58 PM
#91
That's why I made an allowance for likely being mistaken on this point

I've heard something about Bitcoin users who are running full node clients and somehow validating miners' input. Nevertheless, I can't see how they can change anything if they see or think that some miner does something fishy or outright nasty (e.g. includes transactions in the block he's found which shouldn't be there). In short, how exactly can they have a say in this regard? I understand that they might keep the old and allegedly "valid" version of the blockchain without the purportedly offending block, but do they have any real influence or effect?

Simplified explanation: If a rogue miner included a transaction in a block it confirmed and the full node clients found it to be invalid with their independent checks, that block would not be included in the ledger, but when the next transaction block found by a non-rogue miner was independently validated by the full client nodes, that block would be included and added to the ledger, resulting in a longer chain.  If, however, there were no full node clients conducting their independent checks, then the bad actor would win.

But how is that ever possible?

I mean how full nodes (which are not mining, obviously) can remove the invalid block from the blockchain? In essence, they can't do anything with the blockchain apart from (not) relaying it further, to whoever might be interested in it. If they see that some newly included block doesn't quite match their "standards", they just refuse to relay it (and relay the old blockchain instead). That's basically all what they can do. It is the miners' prerogative to add new blocks to an old valid version of the blockchain (i.e. without the offending block), thereby completely ignoring the invalid block. What am I missing exactly?

Dunno.  Consensus protocol?  Effects of forking?  Here's a wiki article on full nodes that may help a little: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Full_node
hero member
Activity: 1106
Merit: 521
February 26, 2017, 02:16:34 PM
#90
All time high for the transaction fees : https://bitcoinfees.info/

Now more than 50 cts for the 3 blocks fees !

The network is BLOATED and more people want to confirm transactions on the network.
The result is spiking transaction fees that might seriously hurt the network and its growth in 2017 if there is nothing done very quickly.
If nothing is done and transaction costs keep spiking, a lot of activity will move to cheaper rising networks like DASH. I am not saying it is a bad thing but Bitcoin is NOT well positioned right now at the technical level to benefit from its rise in popularity.

This is good for Blockstream.  Now more people will need lightning and will pay Adam Back to let them conduct their transactions on his side chain.  This higher the fee, the better it is for Adam to start collecting fees on his private platform.  Keep it up.  Way up.

Will there not be competing Lighting networks?  which will actually make the fee market competitive and drive down price.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
February 26, 2017, 02:08:38 PM
#89
That's why I made an allowance for likely being mistaken on this point

I've heard something about Bitcoin users who are running full node clients and somehow validating miners' input. Nevertheless, I can't see how they can change anything if they see or think that some miner does something fishy or outright nasty (e.g. includes transactions in the block he's found which shouldn't be there). In short, how exactly can they have a say in this regard? I understand that they might keep the old and allegedly "valid" version of the blockchain without the purportedly offending block, but do they have any real influence or effect?

Simplified explanation: If a rogue miner included a transaction in a block it confirmed and the full node clients found it to be invalid with their independent checks, that block would not be included in the ledger, but when the next transaction block found by a non-rogue miner was independently validated by the full client nodes, that block would be included and added to the ledger, resulting in a longer chain.  If, however, there were no full node clients conducting their independent checks, then the bad actor would win.

But how is that ever possible?

I mean how full nodes (which are not mining, obviously) can remove the invalid block from the blockchain? In essence, they can't do anything with the blockchain apart from (not) relaying it further, to whoever might be interested in it. If they see that some newly included block doesn't quite match their "standards", they just refuse to relay it (and relay the old blockchain instead). That's basically all what they can do. It is the miners' prerogative to add new blocks to an old valid version of the blockchain (i.e. without the offending block), thereby completely ignoring the invalid block. What am I missing exactly?
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1017
February 26, 2017, 01:53:07 PM
#88
Bitcoin won't go mainstream until instant transactions are made possible

Hefty transaction fees are actually only a tip of an iceberg. To facilitate cheap and fast transactions transactional banks (aka hubs) should be established over the blockchain. These will put an end to miners' hegemony and mayhem in respect to which transactions should be included into the blockchain and at which price (i.e. fee). Some people will obviously get up in arms at this idea and likely start protesting vigorously against it. I understand their butthurt but I advise them to think twice (before spurting curses and epitaphs), and first time to think how mining (i.e. essentially confirmations of transactions) is already centralized without the possibility of turning back

You are absolutely spot on. The miners are harming the reputation of Bitcoin by demanding too much too early. They fail to understand that we need to increase our user-base, before demanding anything from the users. If the transactions are getting confirmed after 2 days or 3 days, then a lot of users may find another method to transfer their funds.

Okay....I think what we are arguing about here is a bit convoluted.  I believe that this argument fits more into the long debated argument of "distribution" vs "decentralization."  The bitcoin network is a combination of the two network configurations: the ledger is distributed and the miners are (arguably) decentralized.  It's the balance and interrelation of the two configurations that triggers the extreme perceptions here.  It seems to be a difference in perspective that drives the divide. The perception of that division can also be attributed to the other long debated argument of "means of exchange" vs "store of value."  Can the network support both use cases with the efficiency required to sustain both cases simultaneously?  Could one case be sacrificed for the other without causing a disruption in the network?  Are they mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive....etc?  What is the balance?  It's all a matter of perspective, right?

For all practical considerations this division doesn't seem to bear well on reality

These "configurations" as you call them are in fact just one setup (at least, so far). The ledger may be distributed across many millions of nodes but these are irrelevant ultimately since only those copies are binding which are used by miners themselves (and which they change by adding transactions). Really, what's the purpose of a copy of the blockchain (in respect to your point, of course) if you can't do anything with it? In other words, the nodes that are not actively participating in mining can be written off entirely. I guess that wouldn't affect Bitcoin in any substantial degree if they all went offline (though I may be mistaken on this)

Those who run the full node clients help keep the miners honest.  They independently validate each block of transactions to make sure the block confirmed by the miner is valid.  This allows the nodes to "trust" the block without "trusting" the miner who confirmed it.  It is an important "check" on the network to prevent bad actors from manipulating the ledger....Right?  Another nuance, maybe: confirmation vs validation?

That's why I made an allowance for likely being mistaken on this point

I've heard something about Bitcoin users who are running full node clients and somehow validating miners' input. Nevertheless, I can't see how they can change anything if they see or think that some miner does something fishy or outright nasty (e.g. includes transactions in the block he's found which shouldn't be there). In short, how exactly can they have a say in this regard? I understand that they might keep the old and allegedly "valid" version of the blockchain without the purportedly offending block, but do they have any real influence or effect?

Simplified explanation: If a rogue miner included a transaction in a block it confirmed and the full node clients found it to be invalid with their independent checks, that block would not be included in the ledger, but when the next transaction block found by a non-rogue miner was independently validated by the full client nodes, that block would be included and added to the ledger, resulting in a longer chain.  If, however, there were no full node clients conducting their independent checks, then the bad actor would win.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500
February 26, 2017, 10:33:33 AM
#87
I don't think this is actually going to affect most of us because if you see PayPal also had more fees from starting and regardless people still use it because of it's features and security of purchases. So same will happen with bitcoin people know the potential of the currency and the anonymity so I don't this fees is actually going to bitcoin much.
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