Transfer bitcoins without internet - page 3.

mendace

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Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 04, 2022, 05:51:34 PM

Hello everyone, greetings and respect, I have just implemented a bitcoin BTC payment system in my small community with cold wallets but not all of them are young with internet access. Many of them have expressed their concern to me. It all comes down to how can I transfer bitcoin payments to you without internet?

I do not know if this possibility had been discussed before in this wonderful forum. But I need your help to see if all together we can achieve this.

Hi, mmh this could be a problem unfortunately the bitcoin network needs internet but you could still make transactions offline which would always require a connection afterwards anyway. Rather which country are we talking about? How come there is no possibility to have a connection even of poor quality?

EarnOnVictor

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Quote from: hZti on December 12, 2022, 12:46:53 PM

You can just pass on a storage device where a signed bitcoin transaction is stored. The receiver can then just "cash in" this transaction at any time when he gets to a location with internet connect. Still it is not a perfect way, since you still need the connection at some point.

I have stressed my brain and even searched so well on the internet if this is possible to make and complete a Bitcoin transaction without the internet. I'm afraid, all are pointing to one fact, 'it's not possible.' Bitcoin works with blockchain technology and this will always require the internet to validate/complete every valid transaction.

And from what you have explained, it's reasonable, yet it will always cause delays in transactions which BTC doesn't naturally cause.

bettercrypto

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Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 04, 2022, 05:51:34 PM

Hello everyone, greetings and respect, I have just implemented a bitcoin BTC payment system in my small community with cold wallets but not all of them are young with internet access. Many of them have expressed their concern to me. It all comes down to how can I transfer bitcoin payments to you without internet?

I do not know if this possibility had been discussed before in this wonderful forum. But I need your help to see if all together we can achieve this.

For now, let's accept the fact that we cannot send bitcoin to another wallet anywhere in the world without the internet, this is the truth here bro.

So, there is nothing we can do but follow that we must always have a data connection, for those of us who want to make activity here in cryptocurrency even here in this forum platform. But as far as I know, it is already known if it is possible to have no net in bitcoin in the future, let's just wait for that if we are still alive.

hZti

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You can just pass on a storage device where a signed bitcoin transaction is stored. The receiver can then just "cash in" this transaction at any time when he gets to a location with internet connect. Still it is not a perfect way, since you still need the connection at some point.

RapTarX

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You can build an off-chain method to send/receive bitcoin with an SMS service; as mentioned here- https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-without-internet-sms-service-allows-sending-btc-with-a-text
It's basically a USSD dial-up method where one central party will maintain the accounting while the users can send/receive bitcoin by their mobile number or through a bitcoin address adjusted to every number. Users will only see the figure while the central party will have the access to the fund for the on-chain transaction. Pretty much easy I guess.

seoincorporation

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A lot of people had the same issue, and a way they create to fix this issue is by broadcasting the transactions over ham radio.

If you think about the process, even if the transaction gets broadcasted on the Radio it needs to hit internet at some point, that's why you need to configure a computer with internet to get those radio signals and broadcast the transactions in the blockchain.

Some sources:
https://www.shtfblog.com/how-to-send-bitcoin-over-ham-radio/
https://www.wired.com/story/cypherpunks-bitcoin-ham-radio/
https://news.bitcoin.com/no-internet-no-problem-how-to-send-bitcoin-by-amateur-radio/

dkbit98

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Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 04, 2022, 05:51:34 PM

Hello everyone, greetings and respect, I have just implemented a bitcoin BTC payment system in my small community with cold wallets but not all of them are young with internet access. Many of them have expressed their concern to me. It all comes down to how can I transfer bitcoin payments to you without internet?

Easiest way would be to use something like bitcoin notes that can later be used to withdraw bitcoin to your wallet, and they can be used similar like we use cash today.
Other option is with Opendime usb drives made by Coinkite Coldcard wallet team, or there are alternatives that use format of credit cards like Satodime and you can give this to other people.
I also heard there is a way of sending BTC with sms messages, but this is centralized, or with radio waves, but that is to complicated for most people.

Ucy

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Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 04, 2022, 05:51:34 PM

Hello everyone, greetings and respect, I have just implemented a bitcoin BTC payment system in my small community with cold wallets but not all of them are young with internet access. Many of them have expressed their concern to me. It all comes down to how can I transfer bitcoin payments to you without internet?

I do not know if this possibility had been discussed before in this wonderful forum. But I need your help to see if all together we can achieve this.

One of the ways to handle this is to have a trustworthy Bitcoin/crypto business that prints many private keys loaded with small amount of Bitcoin on multiple cards and sell them to people.

It could be done this way:
On the back of the cards, print multiple Bitcoin private keys that contain small amount of bitcoins and seal the keys with tough scratchable materials - > then write for example 6 digit codes on the tough seal and seal with another seal that's less tough . The card buyers will first of all scratch off the top seal to reveal the codes then verify that the card is genuine by sending the codes to the verifying company via sms. Once the codes have been unsealed the card may no longer be transferable.
The final owner of the card can go ahead and unseal the second layer to claim the private keys.

This should be done securely with a reputable company to keep the private keys safe especially during printing & sealing. I prefer private keys loaded with small amount of bitcoins to lessen the risk of losing a card with private keys that contain huge amounts of bitcoins. Your customers could buy many cards when they want to pay for goods/services that cost a lot of money.

marcosadelacruz

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on December 06, 2022, 06:30:31 AM

Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 06, 2022, 06:03:23 AM

what do you think about the radio frequency spectrum (although Satoshi in the white paper says BTC is an electronic payment system) it is only sending a few bytes through waves to be able to sign and verify transactions in that radio that in the end will be connected to the blockain network in some way that right now I don't know.

It's certainly doable and has been done before. Check out the following links for example:
https://www.shtfblog.com/how-to-send-bitcoin-over-ham-radio/
https://nitter.net/Coinsurenz/status/1052022462790033408

Probably the best way to do it would be to set up a mesh network via something like GoTenna (as the user in that Twitter link above did), with a person with an internet connection on the other end. Then you can cover a wider geographical area and anyone can send a transaction via the mesh network to the central point of internet access in order to be broadcast.

Note that you aren't sending data which needs to be "signed and verified" via radio, as you put it. Each user would sign the transaction they want to make locally on their own device, and would then send that signed transaction through the mesh network in order to reach the person who can broadcast it on their behalf.

Thank you very much I think I can do this it helps me a lot https://news.bitcoin.com/no-internet-no-problem-how-to-send-bitcoin-by-amateur-radio/ Everything I need to transfer successfully Bitcoin, or any cryptocurrency, is to know the public keys of the intended recipient. If I have that, I can use ham radio to send money. No internet needed! However, this technology is new and the process is somewhat complicated (there is not much information about it) but I think I can do it. Thanks super geniuses!

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Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 04, 2022, 05:51:34 PM

Hello everyone, greetings and respect, I have just implemented a bitcoin BTC payment system in my small community with cold wallets but not all of them are young with internet access. Many of them have expressed their concern to me. It all comes down to how can I transfer bitcoin payments to you without internet?

I do not know if this possibility had been discussed before in this wonderful forum. But I need your help to see if all together we can achieve this.

The only way I know that you can transfer bitcoin without the internet is with a physical device such as an Opendime or this new SatsCard product that is being released. Both are by CoinKite but they both require a certain level of trust.

Another way that you can transact with bitcoin but not on-chain is with networked lightning nodes. They can be networked with either a mesh network for greater distances or hardwired for short distances but you would still need internet to be able to open and close channels.

There is a group of bitcoiners in Berlin who are using lightning offline with a city mesh network (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freifunk) to transact amongst each other without being connected to the internet. The lightning nodes only need to be able to communicate with each other directly to update the state of the channels. When either party wants to close or open a new channel, they would need an internet connection but since you mentioned not everyone in your community has internet access, this could be part of your solution.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 06, 2022, 06:03:23 AM

what do you think about the radio frequency spectrum (although Satoshi in the white paper says BTC is an electronic payment system) it is only sending a few bytes through waves to be able to sign and verify transactions in that radio that in the end will be connected to the blockain network in some way that right now I don't know.

It's certainly doable and has been done before. Check out the following links for example:
https://www.shtfblog.com/how-to-send-bitcoin-over-ham-radio/
https://nitter.net/Coinsurenz/status/1052022462790033408

Probably the best way to do it would be to set up a mesh network via something like GoTenna (as the user in that Twitter link above did), with a person with an internet connection on the other end. Then you can cover a wider geographical area and anyone can send a transaction via the mesh network to the central point of internet access in order to be broadcast.

Note that you aren't sending data which needs to be "signed and verified" via radio, as you put it. Each user would sign the transaction they want to make locally on their own device, and would then send that signed transaction through the mesh network in order to reach the person who can broadcast it on their behalf.

marcosadelacruz

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on December 05, 2022, 07:52:44 AM

Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 04, 2022, 05:51:34 PM

It all comes down to how can I transfer bitcoin payments to you without internet?

You can't. A transaction must be broadcast to the network via the internet in order to be verified and then mined in to a block.

That does not mean, however, that each individual needs internet access. You simply need some way of getting a transaction on to the internet. Each person can easily sign transactions on their offline devices, and then save those transactions as a small text file. All you need then is some way of getting those small text files to a person/node/service who will broadcast them for you. If you have a public WiFi spot in your community, then you can travel there and use that. If one person has a mobile device or similar with internet access, they could potentially set up a service broadcasting transactions on behalf of other people. There are services which allow you to send transactions via SMS as pointed out above. You could even transmit a transaction via phone call or radio to someone with an internet connection who could broadcast it on your behalf.

Since you are posting on this forum, you must have internet access somehow. Could you set up a method using whatever connection you are on now to broadcast transaction on behalf of your community?

Thanks for the information, you who are masters in this new technology, what do you think about the radio frequency spectrum (although Satoshi in the white paper says BTC is an electronic payment system) it is only sending a few bytes through waves to be able to sign and verify transactions in that radio that in the end will be connected to the blockain network in some way that right now I don't know.

BlackHatCoiner

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In theory, trust is eliminated by following the chain with the most work, hereby by setting up a full node which listens to the Bitcoin network which verifies every transaction and enforces the protocol rules. If you don't have the chain to verify, you need to trust someone else.

So, if the members in your community don't have Internet access, trust is required. Their best course is likely, as described by o_e_l_e_o, to trust you for doing that.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: marcosadelacruz on December 04, 2022, 05:51:34 PM

It all comes down to how can I transfer bitcoin payments to you without internet?

You can't. A transaction must be broadcast to the network via the internet in order to be verified and then mined in to a block.

That does not mean, however, that each individual needs internet access. You simply need some way of getting a transaction on to the internet. Each person can easily sign transactions on their offline devices, and then save those transactions as a small text file. All you need then is some way of getting those small text files to a person/node/service who will broadcast them for you. If you have a public WiFi spot in your community, then you can travel there and use that. If one person has a mobile device or similar with internet access, they could potentially set up a service broadcasting transactions on behalf of other people. There are services which allow you to send transactions via SMS as pointed out above. You could even transmit a transaction via phone call or radio to someone with an internet connection who could broadcast it on your behalf.

Since you are posting on this forum, you must have internet access somehow. Could you set up a method using whatever connection you are on now to broadcast transaction on behalf of your community?

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It's still not possible to that but who knows in the future if there will be some great developments that will happen. Like IIRC, there's this satellite technology that would be like to cover the entire world with a connection on its own and from there, that could be where it's possible to happen.
But right now, we don't see it yet because a transaction needs to be mined and confirmed and for it to be confirmed and mined, it'll require to get to connected to the web/internet.

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Bitcoin is not the same as a grin/beam coin where you can able to send offline sending Bitcoin still needs the internet to be able to broadcast the transaction to the mainnet.

You can make transactions offline but you still need an online device to create raw unsign transaction and sign it to your offline device.
So it still needs the internet to send Bitcoin.

marcosadelacruz

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Hello everyone, greetings and respect, I have just implemented a bitcoin BTC payment system in my small community with cold wallets but not all of them are young with internet access. Many of them have expressed their concern to me. It all comes down to how can I transfer bitcoin payments to you without internet?

I do not know if this possibility had been discussed before in this wonderful forum. But I need your help to see if all together we can achieve this.

Topic: Transfer bitcoins without internet - page 3. (Read 1075 times)