Trezor Suite will add a CoinJoin mixing protocol - page 3.

dkbit98

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 08, 2022, 03:06:54 PM

Not at all. I'm very pro-coinjoin. The only thing I'm anti here is wallets which style themselves as a privacy tool while spying on their users.

Please show me a single proof of someone privacy being exposed for using any of this products.

Quote from: Pmalek on September 09, 2022, 02:52:49 AM

I would love to see that neutral position sometimes in your posts. Maybe it's just me, but I have always felt that it disappeared after the infamous Ledger leaks.

For things you say I have clear proof and my own user experience using that crap and leaking my personal information.
You have to show nothing but speculation Tongue

Quote from: Pmalek on September 09, 2022, 02:52:49 AM

I still love you though but you confirmed my doubts. I don't see how someone like you who is generally criticizing all moves that affect user privacy, anonymity, and centralized control doesn't see anything bad in Trezor partnering up with Wasabi and their spy agencies.

I will repeat again if you don't unedrstand english language and I can repeat that in your native language in our local forum:
Show me a single proof that wasabi coinjoin blacklisted any transaction or spied anyone, and I will join your little hate club.

Quote from: Pmalek on September 09, 2022, 02:52:49 AM

I still love you though but you confirmed my doubts. I don't see how someone like you who is generally criticizing all moves that affect user privacy, anonymity, and centralized control doesn't see anything bad in Trezor partnering up with Wasabi and their spy agencies.

Maybe because we don't know how this partnership will actually work.

PS
This is my honest review of new wasabi wallet:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.60506126

Pmalek

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Quote from: dkbit98 on September 08, 2022, 02:45:29 PM

Regarding partnership with Trezor I can't see how this could be bad for anyone, you are not forced to use this two together, and everything is open source.

There it is . Wink

The part I have been waiting for. It's so good to use an open-source wallet that made a deal with a service provider that has given itself the right to invade everyone's privacy and decide which coins are allowed and which aren't. Censorship and non-fungibility are sought-after features of bitcoin as long as it's open source. You want to be able to read how you are getting fukced after all.

Quote from: dkbit98 on September 08, 2022, 02:45:29 PM

I am speaking this from neutral objective position, I don't support wasabi or trezor wallet in any way.

I would love to see that neutral position sometimes in your posts. Maybe it's just me, but I have always felt that it disappeared after the infamous Ledger leaks.

I still love you though but you confirmed my doubts. I don't see how someone like you who is generally criticizing all moves that affect user privacy, anonymity, and centralized control doesn't see anything bad in Trezor partnering up with Wasabi and their spy agencies.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: dkbit98 on September 08, 2022, 02:45:29 PM

You guys should seriously think about joining some anti-coinjoin club Cheesy

Not at all. I'm very pro-coinjoin. The only thing I'm anti here is wallets which style themselves as a privacy tool while spying on their users.

Quote from: dkbit98 on September 08, 2022, 02:45:29 PM

Please let's be realistic and don't burn a witch that don't even exist...

They have announced they are going to and have said they will partner with a blockchain analysis firm (the latter part may already have happened and your Wasabi inputs may already be being sent for analysis, we can't tell).

Quote from: dkbit98 on September 08, 2022, 02:45:29 PM

Please show me a single proof of wasabi coinjoin blacklisting case so I can join the club, or chill down a bit with this exaggeration drama.

If I was an escrow on this forum, and announced that occasionally and without warning I would choose to renege on a deal and not release the escrow funds to the other party when I should, would it be logical for everyone to keep using me until I actually did what I said, or would it be logical for everyone to simply use another escrow which has not announced such a thing? If Wasabi announce that they are going to blacklist, then it is only logical that people will stop using Wasabi and warn others not to as well, even if they have not yet started actively blacklisting.

Still, given that most privacy conscious users have stopped using Wasabi, and someone is unlikely to broadcast the fact that a specific address/output they own which they were trying to coinjoin was refused, we probably wouldn't know for a while once they do start blacklisting (if they haven't already).

dkbit98

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You guys should seriously think about joining some anti-coinjoin club Cheesy

So much hate towards wasabi-coinjoin and I still didn't saw a single case of coinjoin transaction being blacklisted so far!
Please let's be realistic and don't burn a witch that don't even exist...
Regarding partnership with Trezor I can't see how this could be bad for anyone, you are not forced to use this two together, and everything is open source.
I am speaking this from neutral objective position, I don't support wasabi or trezor wallet in any way.

PS
Please show me a single proof of wasabi coinjoin blacklisting case so I can join the club, or chill down a bit with this exaggeration drama.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: Pmalek on September 08, 2022, 04:37:59 AM

I expected harsher words here when reading about such an announcement. I can only think what kind of comments there would be if this was the always-to-blame Ledger company that did this and not the much better and ultra-safe Trezor who cares about us. Oh, but they are open-source. Oh yes, it's certainly a plus to use an open-source wallet that has built a partnership with a company that wants to cooperate with blockchain analysis firms to tell you if you have been a naughty boy or not.

They are all the same. Their profit margins matter, you/we don't.

The difference is that due to the firmware and hardware being open-source, I can verify that they're not doing nasty stuff without announcement / behind my back.
It never guarantees that they won't implement nasty stuff, but at least they're kind of forced to announce it, because people would otherwise notice in the code diff.

Pmalek

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I expected harsher words here when reading about such an announcement. I can only think what kind of comments there would be if this was the always-to-blame Ledger company that did this and not the much better and ultra-safe Trezor who cares about us. Oh, but they are open-source. Oh yes, it's certainly a plus to use an open-source wallet that has built a partnership with a company that wants to cooperate with blockchain analysis firms to tell you if you have been a naughty boy or not.

They are all the same. Their profit margins matter, you/we don't.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: DireWolfM14 on September 07, 2022, 03:58:51 PM

If one were to use Wasabi via Trezor Suite, all of these privacy features they've provided suddenly become meaningless.

Not just meaningless, but worse than before. Previously it was case of Trezor being able to link all your addresses together and link that information with your IP address. Now it's still a case of that, but also feeding some or all of those addresses to a blockchain analysis entity and then associating your entire wallet with whatever nonsense that blockchain analysis entity tells them. And given what we know about how much blockchain analysis entities like to sell data, I think it would be very naive to assume that such analysis will not end up in the hands of other entities and businesses.

Quote from: n0nce on September 07, 2022, 07:40:37 PM

Ouch! What a horrible move.

I've been pretty unimpressed with Trezor since they took no steps to warn their users about the unfixable seed extraction attack, and this complete disregard for their users' privacy is another step in that direction.

Quote from: witcher_sense on September 08, 2022, 01:48:13 AM

A CoinJoin directly from a hardware wallet has seemed so far like a pipe dream, but it may be that Trezor developers have found a way to make hardware wallet CoinJoin possible?

I'm not sure how. Either you need the owner to sit beside their computer/Trezor device the entire time and manually approve each transaction, or you need to introduce some piece of software which can automatically sign transactions (or extract the private key and store it temporarily in a hot wallet), which defeats the very purpose of a hardware wallet. I guess we'll have to wait and see what they've come up with.

witcher_sense

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While I am not going to use ever again the coordinator that zkSNACKS and their chain surveillance friends control, and Trezor Suite which is terrible for privacy in general, I am somewhat optimistic about this news. Currently, in order to participate in a CoinJoin transaction, you have to have a hot wallet containing private keys to the inputs you'd like to CoinJoin so that a signing process can be done automatically without the direct participation of users. In short, the software has access to these private keys and can use them directly to sign transactions for users. In hardware wallets, however, private keys are isolated from software access, and users need to sign every transaction manually. A CoinJoin directly from a hardware wallet has seemed so far like a pipe dream, but it may be that Trezor developers have found a way to make hardware wallet CoinJoin possible? If so, then other developers will also be able to implement CoinJoins in their software interfaces for hardware wallets, adding different coordinators and implementing different, even decentralized, CoinJoin solutions.

n0nce

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not your keys, not your coins!

Ouch! What a horrible move.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 07, 2022, 07:07:42 AM

Sounds like a nightmare partnership for privacy.

Yup. I'm going to make sure everyone I know that uses a Trezor, moves to Bitcoin Core / Electrum / Sparrow, as fast as possible.

Everyone, please do note that you don't need Trezor Suite for firmware updates. You can thus use it completely without their software.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 07, 2022, 01:50:25 PM

The only way around this is to run your own node, and use your hardware wallet solely via your node. You can run an Electrum server on top of your node and then use your hardware wallet with Electrum, but you can also point Trezor Suite at your Electrum server directly: https://blog.trezor.io/connecting-your-wallet-to-a-full-node-edf56693b545

Do note that setting up your own Electrum server in a SPV wallet software is no guarantee that no data is leaked.
A bad implementation (intentional or not), especially when closed source, may still connect to the developers' server as a fallback, without anyone noticing.
Furthermore, it appears that some mobile wallets allow you to receive push notifications, which can not be triggered by your Electrum server or your device locally, so they have to transfer some data to themselves.

Just wanted to point that out when people go looking for a Trezor Suite alternative.
I recommend checking out something on https://walletscrutiny.com/ to make sure that the software is not only open-source but also that the release builds match the source (reproducibility).

DireWolfM14

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 07, 2022, 07:07:42 AM

I've got to question the smartness of submitting addresses from your hardware wallet directly to a blockchain analysis company for surveillance and monitoring by using Wasabi, especially since Trezor (if you use their software) can link all the addresses in your hardware wallet together. Sounds like a nightmare partnership for privacy.

I read about this yesterday, and I must say I'm really disappointed in Trezor's management team for doing this. There are other centralized coinjoin providers they could have implemented into Trezor Suite, but partnering with any centralized agency seems like a betrayal to their customers. If someone would have asked me two days ago to wager on whether Trezor or Ledger was more likely to pull such a stunt, I would have bet the farm on Ledger...

I don't use Trezor suite myself, at least not for transacting with my bitcoin, and have very few alts to worry about. The saving grace for Trezor suite has been that it's possible to assign your own SPV (Electrum) server, and it also allows you to use Tor for network connectivity. So, even if you are using Trezor's SPV servers there're ways to at least obfuscate your IP address. If one were to use Wasabi via Trezor Suite, all of these privacy features they've provided suddenly become meaningless.

I really would have expected more from Trezor, I'm literally heartbroken buy this news.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: SFR10 on September 07, 2022, 12:01:35 PM

I was starting to really like Trezor Suite, but looks like I have to ditch it in the near future if they continue going down that path!

It is the exact same situation for any other wallet which is not Bitcoin Core or is not pointed exclusively at your own server. A popular combination with any hardware wallet is to use it via Electrum rather than its own software (Trezor Suite, Ledger Live, etc.), but all this does is shift the point of failure from the hardware wallet manufacturer to whoever is running the Electrum server, in that the person running the Electrum server can now link all your addresses together.

The only way around this is to run your own node, and use your hardware wallet solely via your node. You can run an Electrum server on top of your node and then use your hardware wallet with Electrum, but you can also point Trezor Suite at your Electrum server directly: https://blog.trezor.io/connecting-your-wallet-to-a-full-node-edf56693b545

I'm not sure how compatible (or more likely incompatible) all of this will be with whatever coinjoin integration they end up with.

SFR10

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 07, 2022, 07:07:42 AM

especially since Trezor (if you use their software) can link all the addresses in your hardware wallet together. Sounds like a nightmare partnership for privacy.

I was starting to really like Trezor Suite, but looks like I have to ditch it in the near future if they continue going down that path!
^{- Considering that they've been "pushing back CoinJoin updates on numerous occasions", I was expecting to see their own implementation at some point in the future ^[SMH].}

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: ?? on ??

But we don't know yet whether Trezor run their own CoinJoin coordinator server or simply use Wasabi's coordinator.

Why would they partner with Wasabi if they were planning to run their own coordinator? The Trezor team are more than capable of building their own coinjoin implementation and integrating it with Trezor Suite without Wasabi's help. The only reason I can see for the partnership is to give Trezor users direct access to Wasabi's liquidity, but that comes with all the downsides of using Wasabi's coordinator.

Quote from: NeuroticFish on September 07, 2022, 08:29:08 AM

Oh well, I guess that nobody is forced to use Wasabi/CoinJoin from Trezor Suite (although I'm afraid many will do).

Better hope Trezor don't start "pre-screening" all your addresses for coinjoining by sending them to Wasabi's blockchain analysis partners for vetting. But of course, we would have no way of knowing one way or the other.

dkbit98

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Quote from: Daltonik on September 07, 2022, 03:54:25 AM

But won't this lead to pressure from the authorities on the Trezor team, as it was with Tornado Cash?

No, because Trezor is doing this in partnership with Wasabi wallet, and it's possible this move will lead towards creating more coinjoin coordinators.
If regulators are going to make pressure on someone it's probably going to be Wasabi wallet, but coinjoin itself is not illegal in any way.
However, in theory regulators could ban potatoes, meat, milk or anything else related with privacy.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 07, 2022, 07:07:42 AM

Sounds like a nightmare partnership for privacy.

This was the first thing that came into my mind. I was expecting more from Trezor, I was expecting they won't be as "hungry" as Ledger and as eager to make questionable partnerships.
Oh well, I guess that nobody is forced to use Wasabi/CoinJoin from Trezor Suite (although I'm afraid many will do).

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Daltonik on September 07, 2022, 05:26:13 AM

Yes, you're right, because in fact the CoinJoin protocol is centralized

No it isn't. CoinJoin is neither centralized nor decentralized; it is simply a protocol. Wasabi's implementation of it is centralized. There are other better implementations, such as JoinMarket, which are decentralized and are not pro-censorship and anti-fungibility like Wasabi are.

Quote from: Daltonik on September 07, 2022, 05:26:13 AM

so speaking of anonymity, Trezor developers get an additional tool for accessing the list of users and their IP, as well as the possibility of blocking.

I've got to question the smartness of submitting addresses from your hardware wallet directly to a blockchain analysis company for surveillance and monitoring by using Wasabi, especially since Trezor (if you use their software) can link all the addresses in your hardware wallet together. Sounds like a nightmare partnership for privacy.

Daltonik

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Quote from: nc50lc on September 07, 2022, 04:18:49 AM

Quote from: Daltonik on September 07, 2022, 03:54:25 AM

But won't this lead to pressure from the authorities on the Trezor team, as it was with Tornado Cash?

Probably not since they're with Wasabi, they might impose the same regulation that censors some UTXO.

For more info about that topic, refer to these threads:

Yes, you're right, because in fact the CoinJoin protocol is centralized and does not really guarantee complete anonymity of transactions, so speaking of anonymity, Trezor developers get an additional tool for accessing the list of users and their IP, as well as the possibility of blocking.

nc50lc

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Quote from: Daltonik on September 07, 2022, 03:54:25 AM

But won't this lead to pressure from the authorities on the Trezor team, as it was with Tornado Cash?

Probably not since they're with Wasabi, they might impose the same regulation that censors some UTXO.

For more info about that topic, refer to these threads:

Daltonik

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Trezor in partnership with the Wasabi Wallet team. he talks about adding a tool for mixing bitcoin transactions CoinJoin to the Trezor Suite, which, according to the developers, will make bitcoin transactions more private, it is expected that the new feature will be available in 2023.
But won't this lead to pressure from the authorities on the Trezor team, as it was with Tornado Cash?

Source: https://decrypt.co/109019/trezor-and-wasabi-join-forces-to-make-bitcoin-more-private

Topic: Trezor Suite will add a CoinJoin mixing protocol - page 3. (Read 730 times)