Troll free thread about the facts of HashFast's bankruptcy - page 2.

iCEBREAKER

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Quote from: Syke on August 03, 2014, 11:16:02 AM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 03, 2014, 10:57:03 AM

Pre-ordering a non-existing product with supremely ambitious specs from a new start-up isn't like ordering a toaster off Amazon.

Doesn't matter. Customers ordered a product that they never received. HF fucked up. Don't try to blame it on customers, lawyers, trolls or anyone else.

The high degree of risk of an ASIC vs a toaster obviously matters a great deal. You're just too deep in denial to admit it.

If there was any evidence HF was a scam all along, the judge would never has allowed them to continue in their normal course of business under Chapter 11.

Under scrutiny in an actual court of law, the tired old scam accusation fell flat on it face and went nowhere.

Risky high tech start-ups fail all the time. We adults understand that. The judge understands that. Only you bitter gamblers do not.

Making failure a crime or otherwise punishable would destroy the economies' ability to innovate. That's why LLCs exist.

Syke

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 03, 2014, 10:57:03 AM

Pre-ordering a non-existing product with supremely ambitious specs from a new start-up isn't like ordering a toaster off Amazon.

Doesn't matter. Customers ordered a product that they never received. HF fucked up. Don't try to blame it on customers, lawyers, trolls or anyone else.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Syke on August 02, 2014, 11:47:57 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 04:03:18 PM

It's "hard to prove" HF was "lying from the start" because they are/were not a scam. High-tech start-ups (much like Bitcoin) are EXTREMELY risky; that's a fact of life you should deal with instead of seeking cop-outs to justify your own complacent sense of entitlement.

Yeah, you tell them! How dare they feel entitled to the product they paid for! If it wasn't for these bad customers and these bad lawyers, HF would have shipped everything in Oct when they promised. Bad bad customers!

Pre-ordering a non-existing product with supremely ambitious specs from a new start-up isn't like ordering a toaster off Amazon.

It doesn't make you a bad customer, unless you start expecting your ASIC to be no more difficult to produce/deliver than the toaster.

Freaking out and sputtering about how it was a scam all along only proves either 1) you fall for obvious scams, or 2) you don't know the diff between a scam and a failed venture.

This point has been made many times before, by several different people, but it does little to stop those determined to be the victim of an expansive conspiracy:

Quote from: xstr8guy on November 13, 2013, 04:14:42 PM

Are you all really bitching about this?!

You invested in a very risky startup in an extremely volatile market. And you didn't think there weren't going to be any bumps in the road along the way?

Or did you just think that these "money machines" were just going to make you rich without any effort or stress on your part?

This is absolutely absurd! And someone is even calling the guy a douche for wearing a bluetooth headset? Would you rather he didn't answer the phone?

Syke

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 04:03:18 PM

It's "hard to prove" HF was "lying from the start" because they are/were not a scam. High-tech start-ups (much like Bitcoin) are EXTREMELY risky; that's a fact of life you should deal with instead of seeking cop-outs to justify your own complacent sense of entitlement.

Yeah, you tell them! How dare they feel entitled to the product they paid for! If it wasn't for these bad customers and these bad lawyers, HF would have shipped everything in Oct when they promised. Bad bad customers!

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 09:34:29 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on August 02, 2014, 09:29:13 PM

Nobody forced HF to offer full boards for MPP. The customers agreed to receiving chips when they ordered the units so don't blame this on the customers. They should've kept their word and they should've offered bare chips as MPP. It wasn't HF job to secure the mounting of the chips on PCBs.

That's right, upgrading the MPP chips to full boards was a voluntary gesture of good will. It was a popular move at the time.

But dissecting the decision in retrospect is unproductive Monday morning quarterbacking.

You are trying to participate in a debate that happened like 9 months ago.

This is the post-bankruptcy thread, not the pre-one.

Well you are stating in the OP

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 08:10:43 AM

Fact One: HashFast wanted to give us our backorders and MPP in the form of chips, but now cannot thanks to the bankruptcy filing:

That's a damn lie! They could give MPP in form of chips long before the bankruptcy!

Same as full bitcoin refunds! LIE!

iCEBREAKER

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Quote from: RoadStress on August 02, 2014, 09:29:13 PM

Nobody forced HF to offer full boards for MPP. The customers agreed to receiving chips when they ordered the units so don't blame this on the customers. They should've kept their word and they should've offered bare chips as MPP. It wasn't HF job to secure the mounting of the chips on PCBs.

That's right, upgrading the MPP chips to full boards was a voluntary gesture of good will. It was a popular move at the time.

But dissecting the decision in retrospect is unproductive Monday morning quarterbacking.

You are trying to participate in a debate that happened like 9 months ago.

This is the post-bankruptcy thread, not the pre-one.

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 09:22:29 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on August 02, 2014, 09:09:19 PM

The facts are clear. HF failed to keep its promise of delivering MPP in form of chips and deceived its customers from Day 1. The October delivery was a big fat lie just like bitcoin refunds.

Your allegations, however serious, are not germane to matters at hand.

HF is bankrupt, and their nefarious misdeeds are water under the bridge.

But many of us a stake (or two) in what happens to their creditors and assets.

You can go easily go back and read the ancient historical posts which led up to HF offering full boards. It was done because raw chips had little value at the time.

I'm not sure what you think harping on that change accomplishes. To quote Hildebeast, 'At this point, what difference does it make?'

Nobody forced HF to offer full boards for MPP. The customers agreed to receiving chips when they ordered the units so don't blame this on the customers. They should've kept their word and they should've offered bare chips as MPP. It wasn't HF job to secure the mounting of the chips on PCBs.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: RoadStress on August 02, 2014, 09:09:19 PM

The facts are clear. HF failed to keep its promise of delivering MPP in form of chips and deceived its customers from Day 1. The October delivery was a big fat lie just like bitcoin refunds.

Your allegations, however serious, are not germane to matters at hand.

HF is bankrupt, and their nefarious misdeeds are water under the bridge.

But many of us a stake (or two) in what happens to their creditors and assets.

You can go easily go back and read the ancient historical posts which led up to HF offering full boards. It was done because raw chips had little value at the time.

I'm not sure what you think harping on that change accomplishes. To quote Hildebeast, 'At this point, what difference does it make?'

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 09:02:51 PM

Don't you have anything on-topic to contribute?

What's the purpose? The facts are clear. HF failed to keep its promise of delivering MPP in form of chips and deceived its customers from Day 1. The October delivery was a big fat lie just like bitcoin refunds.

Minor Miner

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 09:02:51 PM

Quote from: Minor Miner on August 02, 2014, 08:53:22 PM

You have not apologized to me yet and that is rude. It is also likely a mistake you should not have made.

ROFL. Your bluster is priceless. Thanks for the chuckles. Cheesy

Don't you have anything on-topic to contribute?

I am glad you are amused. Laughing might make you a nicer person. Try to smile everyday and have a chuckle. I notice you edit out all the embarrassing truth in my posts.
I think my contribution that you have no claim is valuable for everyone to know. You seem to keep deleting that.
C'mon Ralph, it is not that crowded in here, leave my posts alone.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: Minor Miner on August 02, 2014, 08:53:22 PM

You have not apologized to me yet and that is rude. It is also likely a mistake you should not have made.

ROFL. Your bluster is priceless. Thanks for the chuckles. Cheesy

Don't you have anything on-topic to contribute?

Minor Miner

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 08:08:49 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Then you said on Icedrill that you did not convert your shares for units.

Wut? Where did I say that? Huh

EDIT: Minor Miner is here to troll, not have a productive conversation. I guess he missed the "troll free" descriptor at the top of the thread. Roll Eyes

MM, if you're just going to troll, please leave this thread.

Keep it up Ralph, try and really piss me off and see where it gets you and your little pump and dump scheme on alts. See how fun that can become for you.
Facts are:
1. You are not a creditor in the HF estate. You have no claim, you actually may be on the other side of the balance sheet.
2. While an employee of HF, you spread FUD about other competitors.
3. You have a lot of anger, likely because of your own mistakes, and like to bully other people to make yourself feel better.
4. You have not apologized to me yet and that is rude. It is also likely a mistake you should not have made.

EDIT: The more I find out about you, the more I feel sorry for you. Surely those weren't all bad decisions on your part, you are TOO smart for that. We all know how smart you are because you tell us. The world must have been out to get you. I am really starting to understand your anger though.
The only words of encouragement I can give you is to keep your head down, work hard and try to be nice to people you meet. You will be rewarded for that. Try that strategy for a while. You have lots of time to turn things around.

iCEBREAKER

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Activity: 2156

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Then you said on Icedrill that you did not convert your shares for units.

Wut? Where did I say that? Huh

EDIT: Minor Miner is here to troll, not have a productive conversation. I guess he missed the "troll free" descriptor at the top of the thread. Roll Eyes

MM, if you're just going to troll, please leave this thread.

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 05:49:55 PM

Quote from: RoadStress on August 02, 2014, 05:11:33 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 04:49:35 PM

People *didn't* accept the original chips-only MPP. WTF were we supposed to do with raw chips? Build a reflow oven in the garage?

I would like to ignore what people accept or not. Please tell me when people bought HF miners what were the terms of the MPP? Chips or boards?

The original terms of the MPP was for chips. Due to popular demand and lack of 3rd party integration capacity, it was changed to assembled boards.

If HF promised MPP in form of chips then it should deliver it like that. It's not HF responsibility to put those chips on boards. Their only responsibility would be to provide the PCB scheme and BOM along with those chips. Customers agreed to that when they ordered HF miners. Also the lack of 3rd party integration is part of HF failure because I am sure that marto74 and MrTeal were never contacted by HF for 3rd party integration for the chips even if they were doing it with other chips.

So in conclusion you/HF blaming the bankruptcy has nothing to do with the fact that HF was unable to deliver their original MPP. They could've just delivered chips and forget about it. HF managed to bring the bankruptcy because of their own incompetence and bad decisions.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: RoadStress on August 02, 2014, 05:11:33 PM

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 04:49:35 PM

People *didn't* accept the original chips-only MPP. WTF were we supposed to do with raw chips? Build a reflow oven in the garage?

I would like to ignore what people accept or not. Please tell me when people bought HF miners what were the terms of the MPP? Chips or boards?

The original terms of the MPP was for chips. Due to popular demand and lack of 3rd party integration capacity, it was changed to assembled boards.

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 04:49:35 PM

People *didn't* accept the original chips-only MPP. WTF were we supposed to do with raw chips? Build a reflow oven in the garage?

I would like to ignore what people accept or not. Please tell me when people bought HF miners what were the terms of the MPP? Chips or boards?

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: RoadStress on August 02, 2014, 04:14:08 PM

If MPP was originally supposed to be only chips and people accepted that, not boards then why not give them the damn chips and let them figure what to do. They were fine with it at the moment of the order and it's their responsibility to figure out what to do with the chips. Of course it was HF's responsibility to provide at least a working board scheme for all customers that received MPP in form of chips in order to go to the third party developers.

What exactly was the hold-up of not providing customers with the MPP in form of chips as HF originally promised? Only their desire to provide MPP in form of working boards or it was anything else?

People *didn't* accept the original chips-only MPP. WTF were we supposed to do with raw chips? Build a reflow oven in the garage?

That's why HF voluntarily took on the huge liability of committing to provide them already assembled onto boards (back when they were flush with cash and the future looked rosy). HF didn't have to do that, it was just a gesture of a goodwill, which was a popular move at the time.

Only when Peppermining, BlackMiner, and VMC began to create 3rd party board assembly options for the Golden Nonce chip did raw chip become a desirable commodity.

At the same time, HF ran out of money/credit to put the chips on boards.

Raw chips would have been a great option. I'd love to trade Peppermining GN chips for finished boards.

Too bad the bankruptcy put a stop to all that, and now the chips are sitting in Mylar while their value melts away. Undecided

Oh well, at least it's some consolidation that the lawyers will get what scraps remain. Grin

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 04:03:18 PM

You present a false dichotomy. HF was doing both, simultaneously shipping dev kits to Peppermining, etc *and* also seeking investors. Unfortunately for us, their efforts to turn the company around were prematurely short-circuited by an ill-conceived bankruptcy filing.

You can't really compare HF to ActM. HF has Simon and his team's world class 28nm 400GH ASIC plus the skills and experience to bring it to market. ActM had...INTELLiHASH.

It's "hard to prove" HF was "lying from the start" because they are/were not a scam. High-tech start-ups (much like Bitcoin) are EXTREMELY risky; that's a fact of life you should deal with instead of seeking cop-outs to justify your own complacent sense of entitlement.

If MPP was originally supposed to be only chips and people accepted that, not boards then why not give them the damn chips and let them figure what to do. They were fine with it at the moment of the order and it's their responsibility to figure out what to do with the chips. Of course it was HF's responsibility to provide at least a working board scheme for all customers that received MPP in form of chips in order to go to the third party developers.

What exactly was the hold-up of not providing customers with the MPP in form of chips as HF originally promised? Only their desire to provide MPP in form of working boards or it was anything else?

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: RoadStress on August 02, 2014, 03:02:39 PM

Wait a minute. So instead of helping third party manufacturers to assemble those chips HF was looking for investors for a company that already was delayed a couple of months? Best business decision ever! For me it sounds much easier to offer to third parties whatever PCB they had and work with them to improve it, instead of seeking investors.

And please don't blame the bankruptcy for the fail. You should blame HF staff for the fail. This is looking like ActM all over again where the biggest shills were complaining that ken was on the right track and the MSD investigation bought the company down. HF was damn late and they promised things which were never true like full bitcoin refunds. They deserve to go down no matter what.

I still don't understand why is it so hard to prove that they were lying from the start. Just ask for some damn receipts for the chips or look in the contracts and the scam will be revealed!

You present a false dichotomy. HF was doing both, simultaneously shipping dev kits to Peppermining, etc *and* also seeking investors. Unfortunately for us, their efforts to turn the company around were prematurely short-circuited by an ill-conceived bankruptcy filing.

You can't really compare HF to ActM. HF has Simon and his team's world class 28nm 400GH ASIC plus the skills and experience to bring it to market. ActM had...INTELLiHASH.

It's "hard to prove" HF was "lying from the start" because they are/were not a scam. High-tech start-ups (much like Bitcoin) are EXTREMELY risky; that's a fact of life you should deal with instead of seeking cop-outs to justify your own complacent sense of entitlement.

RoadStress

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Quote from: iCEBREAKER on August 02, 2014, 11:47:10 AM

HF wasn't just sitting around passively during those three months.

HF was actively pursuing investors and came close to being able to recapitalize, which would have enabled backorders and MPP boards to be produced and shipped.

Before Peppermining and BlackMiner, there was nothing to do with raw chips and nobody wanted them.

Once PM's Habanero came out, raw chips became a desirable commodity.

Settling backorders and MPP with chips came about as the result of the Peppermining carrot and cash crunch stick.

Given those circumstances, it was the right thing to do.

Unfortunately for us (and fortunately for the lawyers) the bankruptcy filings preclude any more such settlements in chips. Undecided

Wait a minute. So instead of helping third party manufacturers to assemble those chips HF was looking for investors for a company that already was delayed a couple of months? Best business decision ever! For me it sounds much easier to offer to third parties whatever PCB they had and work with them to improve it, instead of seeking investors.

And please don't blame the bankruptcy for the fail. You should blame HF staff for the fail. This is looking like ActM all over again where the biggest shills were complaining that ken was on the right track and the MSD investigation bought the company down. HF was damn late and they promised things which were never true like full bitcoin refunds. They deserve to go down no matter what.

I still don't understand why is it so hard to prove that they were lying from the start. Just ask for some damn receipts for the chips or look in the contracts and the scam will be revealed!

Topic: Troll free thread about the facts of HashFast's bankruptcy - page 2. (Read 3802 times)