Topic: Trump Tax Avoidance: Shrewd Smart Businessman or Deserves Jail Time? (Read 252 times)

So their practice on avoiding auditing rich people doesn't apply to Trump? Just to people like Biden, right?

No way I'd release key evidence in a dispute with the IRS. That's like revealing the details of a court case right in the middle of it to the public. But don't worry Trump doesn't expect to be treated fairly.

By the way, most audits are simply letters from the IRS asking about one or several things. You correct it and send in a response.

Then there are the "Compliance Audits" where you are forced to prove every single expense and income item. That's what Obama subjected hundreds of leaders in the Tea Party to. That's the "Weaponized IRS."

This thread is silly. Thousands or millions of people make mistakes in their taxes. The point isn't the mistakes. The point is whether or not the mistakes were intentional.

If your accountant makes a mistake that you don't catch, and you are called by the IRS about it, all you have to do is change it and pay the penalties. As long as there isn't any fraud proven, no problems. You go on with life.

The Dems are simply trying to make a big stink about nothing because Trump is a Republican.

think of it like blockchain analysis in bitcoin in a way. like they found a writeoff in donalds return that matched exactly income in his daughters return.

im sure they will find many more matches to family and friends. maybe legal, maybe not.

Oh that wasn't me trying taking a dig at Trump, that was me saying that we shouldn't AVOID auditing rich people because it is too expensive and not cost effective. Everyone should get audited so that that the rule of law is followed.

I understand Trump may have an audit and such, not sure why that would stop you from releasing your tax returns. But tax returns don't really have much info on it to digest anyway, so I never really understood the hype.

But Trump DOES HAVE an audit ongoing. And his complaint all along about releasing his tax returns is that he would, after the audit finalizes the numbers to a correct figure.

Auditing poor people IS CHEAPER THOUGH and the IRS has said this is the case. Poor people have very simple tax returns, they most likely have have on W-2 and the way they'd try to fuck with their return is by putting bogus deductions on it. That's pretty simple to notice if you're a low income earner and randomly you have a ton of charitable deductions. You don't need teams and teams of IRS high level personnel on that case, you can send someone straight out of college to handle that as it is pretty simple.

Auditing one 'fat cat' is expensive and the IRS budget has been slashed, not allowing them to go after these sorts of people.

To me auditing and making people pay the right amount isn't about the money received in penalties, it's about making sure the rule of law is followed.

I do know what I am talking about. Trump maybe lying is one thing but being economical with the truth is another thing entirely. Which will it be when the whole story comes out.

Legendary journalist Carl Bernstein summed up Trump fairly well when he called him a pathological lair and a con-artist this morning during a British television interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRh5PdPkpm0

You're obviously not knowledgable about the things you are talking about.

I don't know of information on a security clearance being leaked, EVER. Lying and mistatements on such applications are routinely caught and dealt with.

If The NY Times actually has his tax returns, they can tell you who loaned him the money.

Why we're at it, let's find out which Iranian source paid for Obama's college fees.

Regardless of the technicalities of "repay or restructure" what cannot be denied is that Trump will have to make arrangements with people/organisations that he personally owes $400 million to about repaying or restructuring his phenomenal debt to his creditors.

To make matter worse, Trump has not named them. As for evaluating his finances and background checks for his security clearance when standing for office, it means nothing if he hid things ro was economical with the truth - and we do not know what he claimed when seeking clearance from the security services but I am sure that information will be leaked at some point too.

A competent Democratic Presidential candidate and running mate would have put this matter way beyond Trump and ensured he was a one term President but Biden and Harris look like they will be defeated heavily at the November 2020 ballots making Trump a two term President.

Which would have been evaluated when he got his security clearance. But I'm dubious that info needs to go to YOU, or that "the public" is competent to evaluate such things.

Anyway, "due to pay back" is false. Those type loans are written for 7 year periods because of some federal banking regulation. The correct phrase is "due to be renewed."

This is how they would've liked it to go down

CPA: Sir, I've finished your taxes and you owe nothing this year

Trump: Thats too little.  Please go back and redo it

CPA: OK, I've redone it with you owing $750

Trump: Well can you eliminate some of my deductions so I can pay more?

CPA: How much more are we talking?

Trump: Call the NYT and ask what is acceptable for a presidential candidate. 

Trump is a very smart business man and that is why he was able to get a lot of wealth without government of the past find fraud in his business activities. He no how to go around taxation to his advantage.

Where there is a problem is that the President of the USA owes over $400 million in loans to creditors that he has not named and he is due to pay back that loan after 4 years - which coincides with the end of his potential second term.

Whether Trump bullied TikTok or any other company the possibility he could be manipulated by those that he owes money to is a real national security threat.

No. Say the IRS wanted 100M in revenue. They could do us for 10k each or one fat cat. They'd have to do 10,000 of us to get it AND THAT'S IF EVERYONE PAID. Some wouldn't, some would make a deal for less, many simply didn't owe the money. So let's say they audit 10 people to get 10,000$.

Then they have to audit 100k people to get the 100M.

Versus one fat cat? Realistically, say they audit 10 fat cats, and tell each they'll settle for 10M. Sounds easier to me that a hundred thousand.

Well yes, you either use the tax code right or you don't. But would you agree that it is cheaper to audit poor people, right?

Take this quote from the ProPublica article:


If you can't audit rich people due to budgetary constraints, isn't there an issue in funding for the IRS? I understand the whole 'efficient use of resources' but they literally don't have the resources to audit the rich, and that's just a fact FROM THE IRS.

Disagree strongly. You've got to focus on the actual tax code. They only apply that code. If the IRS applies that code, the IRS has done their job. The tax return can be reviewed, and if there is no tax due, there are deductions that reduced the taxable sum to zero or below. Simple as that. The deductions are either acceptable or not.

The certain case of unacceptable and unfair application of the tax code by the IRS is when Obama used it as a weapon to shut down people who opposed him.

I personally do think that the IRS gives a pass to the rich, but not because of the Obamas, the Clintons, or whatever. I think that it is being done (and investigative journalists have shown this as well) because auditing rich people is much more expensive for the IRS to undertake. It takes a good amount of money to go after someone with money -- as they're going to have tax attorneys, CPA's, and so on ready to battle with you to save their client as much as possible. Poor people don't have the luxury.

Here's the ProPublica article - https://www.propublica.org/article/irs-sorry-but-its-just-easier-and-cheaper-to-audit-the-poor

Makes sense given the fact that IRS budget is going to get gutted for people that are rich. I don't like the IRS as much as the next guy, but this whole thing does make sense.

What's hugely problematic is the implicit assumption here that the IRS is NOT DOING IT'S JOB, somehow, for the rich and the powerful.

The IRS certainly did it's job for Obama, when it allowed itself to be a weapon against Obama's political opponents and did his bidding on who to go after.

I don't believe that the IRS gives a pass to the rich and powerful, but it's an interesting question. Who made the IRS regulations that allowed Trump to pay next to nothing?

Congress...

What did Judge Learned Hand have to say about this issue?

"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes. Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any public duty to pay more than the law demands."

Quote by: Judge Learned Hand (1872-1961), Judge, U. S. Court of Appeals
Source: in the case of Gregory v. Helvering 69 F.2d 809, 810 (2d Cir. 1934), aff'd, 293 U.S. 465, 55 S.Ct. 266, 79 L.Ed. 596 (1935)

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/learned_hand_quote_6bf7

the business trick to spread the losses. is loans
by spreading a debt over 10 years. means each year you get to be in the minus for 10 years

but normal people dont get the same 'tax deductables' that businesses get. so while working in an office job or retail job (normal working class wages) you cant deduct the same things a business owner can for their lifestyle needs

working class peopel cannot spread loans as a 'income deductable' every year. which is another reason working class dont take out the same large loans as business owners do

yep
if your a business owner you pay tax on whats left after costs are handled
if you a working class person you pay tax on the income before costs are handled. meaning you then have to cover the costs with whats left after tax

many people try to create their own loopholes by creating dummy businesses or trusts. to pay the business/trust the income. handle all their costs and then and only then declare any profit/loss

but its not easy to do this and get away with it if your working class because employers are forced to try paying wages into the employees personal account and not other accounts in other names

..
another great tax deductable rich people use. is 'charitable foundations' yep the bill and malinda gates foundation. the clinton foundation. the trump foundation is so they can put their personal income into the foundation. pay no tax and then live off of the spending from the foundation

i know spendulus doesnt want to hear bad news being talked about trump. but when you see what he done with the funds in the trump foundation. he might rethink how loyalty/devotion to trump

Thank you for the detailed post. I wanted to respond to the point you made because it is true: effectively if Trump has done nothing illegal then he has done nothing wrong as far as the law is concerned and that is a huge thing to keep in mind.