UK passes bill to enable authorities to seize Bitcoin used for crime

Rikafip

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Quote from: Hispo on October 27, 2023, 06:37:45 AM

So in theory if someone buys BTC through P2P and stores it in their non custodial or cold wallet, an agent of the United Kingdom law could simply knock on the buyer's door and demand to have full access to such wallet because some satoshis are suspected to be of an illegal procedence?

Crazy if that is the case, because one thing is to seize a Binance or Coinbase account because it being used illegally, but a completely different thing is to ask some citizen to hand over their Ledger or Trezor because that person alledgely bought a handful of bucks which had interactions with a labeled addresses or addresses being recorded in a black list ... Sad

Bascially yes, and something similar has happened to one of the members from our local board, as he explained it here.

You can use Google translate to read the whole story, but in short he bought large amount of bitcoin and after few years German police knocked on his door claiming that that those bitcoins were "dirty" and seized his Ledger with shit load of money on it (only stablecoins, not bitcoin).

Captain Corporate

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I would guess that they basically made it "legal" in bitcoin form. Before this they did had a period where they ended up with some sort of seizing anyway, they just didn't really do anything that would be different in the end, like they would still seize but consider that currency, like how they would seize anything outside of pounds, a "foreign currency". But now with this, they made its special seizing law or regulation or whatever they are calling it. Thats quite fine to be fair and I understand the logic, not like they will start, they will just change the penal code for the seizure that they will do. I am all for criminals to get their money seized, if you don't want it, don't commit any crime.

Vaculin

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Quote from: m2017 on October 26, 2023, 11:07:27 AM

With each new news it becomes more and more interesting. This law opens up wide opportunities for the authorities to seize bitcoins. All they have to do is get a base of buyers of hardware wallet devices, who probably have bitcoin that should be confiscated. What’s also funny is that they previously pretended that the bitcoin didn't exist and was a nothing, but now they want to confiscate it. Has the bitcoin really become of any value to them now? Soon the governments of all countries will begin the hunt for bitcoiners and the contents of their wallets.

Which country will follow UK 's example and pass a similar law? We place bets.

If this is the only way that UK government will be able to control the bitcoin assets of their citizens, then probably this law is made for that. They are just pretending that this law is made to seize bitcoin easier for those who are using bitcoin for illicit activities but in reality, they don't care stopping those illegal activities but only to confiscate bitcoin and made it their own. They don't want to recognize the benefits of bitcoin but they are obviously seizing it because of its very expensive value.

The more the countries that will imitate this kind of law, the higher the tendency that we should not allowed bitcoin to be fully regulated by the country's government. Otherwise, they will be enjoying the benefits that we are supposed to enjoy.

stompix

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Quote from: Lucius on October 27, 2023, 06:39:58 AM

The majority wants Bitcoin to be accepted by everyone and everywhere, but they find it strange when it comes under the same rules as everything else that can serve as a tool for crime. Does it make any difference whether someone seized Bitcoin, a bunch of fiat, or a medieval castle? Well, you can't really put the castle in your pocket, but you understand what I mean

How dare you, you mean a tool that gets away from the power of the government, that lets' you deal in transactions without a third party, that is pseudonymous, that can help you transfer value in a split second across the glove, help you go through customs with millions on a 2x2 piece of paper is not going to be used only by grandma's on Sunday making church donations? I call this blasphemy!

Quote from: pixie85 on October 26, 2023, 03:06:13 PM

Seizing is stealing but in a legal way.
~
It's nothing but a wordplay used by the authorities to distinguish between the same action done by you and a lawman.

Seizing is freezing assets, nobody is taking your assets with a seizing order, that is confiscating and it can be only done with a court order.
Anyhow, seizing and confiscating Ilya Lichtenstein and Heather Morgan's coins was stealing?

0t3p0t

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Quote

Introduced in September 2022, the passed legislation aims to expand authorities’ ability to crack down on the use of cryptocurrency in crimes like cybercrime, scams and drug trafficking.

One of the provisions of the Economic Crime and Corporate Transparency Bill permits the recovery of crypto assets used in crimes without conviction, as some individuals may avoid conviction by remaining remote. The legislation also aims to combat the use of digital assets “for the purposes of terrorism” or related reasons.

If the ligislation permits the recovery of crypto assets used in crimes without conviction, I am skeptical about this if it happened here in my country because authorities might use it for their own personal interest like what had happened on the current situation on drug related operations where they confiscate the substance and money and paraphernalias but instead of disposing it properly some used and resell the items. There are always loophole but I am impressed with what the UK government has done to counter illegal activities.

DaveF

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Quote from: Hispo on October 27, 2023, 06:37:45 AM

So in theory if someone buys BTC through P2P and stores it in their non custodial or cold wallet, an agent of the United Kingdom law could simply knock on the buyer's door and demand to have full access to such wallet because some satoshis are suspected to be of an illegal procedence?

Crazy if that is the case, because one thing is to seize a Binance or Coinbase account because it being used illegally, but a completely different thing is to ask some citizen to hand over their Ledger or Trezor because that person alledgely bought a handful of bucks which had interactions with a labeled addresses or addresses being recorded in a black list ... Sad

In most parts of the world yes. Since they consider BTC to be property.

If you on craigslist and buy a car that turns out to be
1) Stolen
2) Used in a crime
3) Belonging to someone who used funds that were obtained through non legal ways

They have the right to take the car for #s 1 and 2 it's been clear cut case law for decades. #3 is a bit more difficult and courts have ruled both ways on the subject. If someone who looks like this shows up and sells you a lambo for cash cheap you are going to have a bit of explaining to do:

Vs someone who looks like this selling you a Toyota:

-Dave

hyudien

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Quote from: Doan9269 on October 26, 2023, 10:30:49 AM

Quote from: Oshosondy on October 26, 2023, 10:20:40 AM

I saw this today on Cointelegraph: https://cointelegraph.com/news/uk-bill-seize-bitcoin-passed

Who is seizing stolen and bitcoin used in illegal activities before in United Kingdom?.

Aliens? Grin

Thesame thing goes to US as well, not only UK is found with this, what are the account on stolen and recovered bitcoin asset recovered, the US claimed they are releasing back to the bitcoin network while some claim they are selling them out in auction, now it's UK turn, has there never been any record of ceased bitcoin before now from hackers or exchanges, what has been happening before now with the issue of their AML agencies, what are those asset used for, who are the unauthorized people in charge before the released of this official statement.

Remember once it's nit your keys, it's either governments or hackers bitcoin.

The confiscated goods will become the property of the state, including Bitcoin and several other properties which are often considered evidence of criminal acts. As you say, the US stands out the most when the FBI confiscates evidence, for example in the Silk Road darkweb fraud case in 2021 there were around 50 thousand Bitcoins. If the investigation involves law enforcement officers, the evidence automatically becomes the property of the state. Moreover, if Bitcoin is returned to its original owner, but because it is an asset that is not backed by the government, the authorities have the right to claim the profits and add them to the state's allowance.

Z-tight

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Quote from: GeorgeJohn on October 27, 2023, 02:37:04 AM

Bitcoin is a decentralized currency and many nations have tried to regulate bitcoin but all be avail, so for government to make decentralized currency which is bitcoin to be centralized and they knew that its impossible because they don't know how bitcoin is been created..satoshi nakamoto made bitcoin to decentralized not centralized and his objectives will continue be permanent.

I think you are missing the point here, BTC is decentralized and it cannot become centralized, the government can also not regulate the network in itself, but they can regulate services and tools through which you interact with BTC, services like exchanges, privacy solutions, mining and others. Some mining pools are already making kyc compulsory before you mine to their pool, so if the government can get to regulate centralized exchanges and regulate mining to a certain extent, they are already indirectly regulating the network.

It is worth mentioning that in this time privacy is so important for a bitcoiner, because we do not know what the level of government interference would be in a few years time, avoid kyc and address reuse as much as you can and use recommended privacy solutions.

Lucius

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Quote from: Rikafip on October 26, 2023, 10:35:25 AM

You should have read the article you shared pass the title (which was imho misleadingly written ) as its mention later in the text that goal of this new bill is to make it even easier and faster for government agencies to seize cryptocurrencies that they belive were used in illegal activities.

Good advice, and if only members followed it more, they wouldn't open such pointless topics and also promote websites that spread fake news and earn millions at the same time.

The majority wants Bitcoin to be accepted by everyone and everywhere, but they find it strange when it comes under the same rules as everything else that can serve as a tool for crime. Does it make any difference whether someone seized Bitcoin, a bunch of fiat, or a medieval castle? Well, you can't really put the castle in your pocket, but you understand what I mean

Hispo

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Quote from: DaveF on October 26, 2023, 01:43:06 PM

Quote from: Hispo on October 26, 2023, 12:46:44 PM

...
What will stop the UK authorities from knocking onto the door of the business and seize those satoshis from the legitimate business owner ?
It is an scenario which could easily happen, because someone who is managing a business may commit the mistake of reusing addresses or using an address from an exchange, from there it would be just matter of time for police to get their name and address.
Hopefully nothing similar to that will ever happen .

Nothing. Same as if someone used counterfeited cash. You as the store owner loose.
Buy a car that turns out later to be stolen because the person selling it to you forged the paperwork, you loose.
And so on.

This bill just defines crypto as an asset that can be taken as opposed to it being something that perhaps could be argued in the courts.

-Dave

So in theory if someone buys BTC through P2P and stores it in their non custodial or cold wallet, an agent of the United Kingdom law could simply knock on the buyer's door and demand to have full access to such wallet because some satoshis are suspected to be of an illegal procedence?

Crazy if that is the case, because one thing is to seize a Binance or Coinbase account because it being used illegally, but a completely different thing is to ask some citizen to hand over their Ledger or Trezor because that person alledgely bought a handful of bucks which had interactions with a labeled addresses or addresses being recorded in a black list ... Sad

shield132

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Quote from: Oshosondy on October 26, 2023, 10:20:40 AM

I saw this today on Cointelegraph: https://cointelegraph.com/news/uk-bill-seize-bitcoin-passed

Who is seizing stolen and bitcoin used in illegal activities before in United Kingdom?.

Aliens? Grin

They will probably seize bitcoins that is used in United Kingdom, that means that any UK citizen that will receive illegal coins will face jail. If illegal coins are sent outside of country, then UK can ask them for support. They will not have any power in Russia but in EU, America, Australia, Canada and New Zealand they will be able to seize coins and catch person. That's my speculation but can't imagine otherwise.
I think there will be many false alarms if they will reply on blockchain analysis companies.

Kakmakr

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Asset Forfeiture is not something new, so why should Bitcoin be excepted, if it is used in criminal activities. The whole aim of "Asset Forfeiture" is for criminals to know, if they benefited from a crime and if they are caught.... everything will be seized and they will be left with nothing.

The reality are that criminals have seen that Bitcoin are giving them some anonymity and they are taking full advantage of that, but most of them have to give up the passwords or Seed... when they get caught. Hopefully the seized coins goes towards the funding of anti-crime and crime prevention projects. Roll Eyes

DapanasFruit

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The UK bill that just passed is focusing on Bitcoin that are utilized in cybercrime, scams and drug trafficking. While I am not pr se against this law, I think there should be enough level of transparency by making all the information and details on possible seizure. In the first place, this is not so surprising anymore and we can expect more and more countries adopting the same measures with the end view of protecting the people from unscrupulous agents...but of course we should also be watching that this is not abused and must not be used to kill the cryptocurrency industry.

Fivestar4everMVP

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Quote from: Oshosondy on October 26, 2023, 10:20:40 AM

Who is seizing stolen and bitcoin used in illegal activities before in United Kingdom?.

Aliens? Grin

LOL
Well, maybe before, it was not official, but now, they have decided to make it official by stamping it into law for future sake.

Anyways, this is not something to be surprised about though, for its not just bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, in our present world outside of cryptocurrencies, whatever item or property used for crime or illegal activities is always seized by authorities, that is the government. Items or properties like guns, cars, ships used to ship illegal things into a country and is caught, houses bought with stolen money or acquired or obtained through illegal means, Money gotten through crimes like stealing, robbery, bribery, looting and so on, computers and other types of gadgets used for illegal activities like internet fraud, credit card and so on.

So, if the UK authorities is signing this in law that they will be seizing bitcoins used for illegal activities, i personally do not see it as something new, or something to be suprised about

GeorgeJohn

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Quote from: Z-tight on October 26, 2023, 01:35:24 PM

I don't think that is what the government want to do, they are smarter than that and they know that they cannot eliminate BTC, as it does not have any single point of failure. What the government want to do is to regulate the BTC network as much as they can, especially through centralized BTC businesses and right now they are even looking at doing so to privacy solutions. The government wants to have every information about your BTC and that is why they are now going after privacy solutions, they cannot eliminate BTC, but they want to know what you do with it.

Bitcoin is a decentralized currency and many nations have tried to regulate bitcoin but all be avail, so for government to make decentralized currency which is bitcoin to be centralized and they knew that its impossible because they don't know how bitcoin is been created..satoshi nakamoto made bitcoin to decentralized not centralized and his objectives will continue be permanent.

Many countries across the nation have heard such mindset of regulating bitcoin after they have attempted to ban bitcoin and they noticed that it can not work for them and they apply an application of regulating bitcoin so government have a different ways or strategies fight a particular thing they know that have the interest of the youths.

According op government of United Kingdom passed a bill seizing bitcoin that is been used for crime, I know that it's good to fight a corruption in the country, but what will asked yourself is that how time have government generally across the nations fight people who is into money laundering and embellishments of funds, I think that this two things I mentioned is same illegal use of funds.

mvdheuvel1983

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Quote from: Rikafip on October 26, 2023, 10:35:25 AM

You should have read the article you shared pass the title (which was imho misleadingly written ) as its mention later in the text that goal of this new bill is to make it even easier and faster for government agencies to seize cryptocurrencies that they belive were used in illegal activities.

As Bitcoin becomes more global thieves and bad state actors would increase in their use of it for nefarious activities. For example in terrorism finanncing. I do not support bitcoin being used for any illegal activity. It taints the image of Bitcoin and gives it a bad rep. Therefore on this note, I stand with the government as along as they go after the real bad guys and not witch-hunt some honest Bitcoin trader or holder.

bayu7adi

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There are two possibilities: assets can be either seized or merely frozen. Since the UK has claimed to have the largest crypto transaction volume in Europe, they have begun regulating everything to keep it under governmental control. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but asset seizures may never truly provide a solution for their original owners.

People often refer to seizures as legally sanctioned heists, allowing governments to safely take control of the wealth owned by a lawbreaker.

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Quote from: coolcoinz on October 26, 2023, 01:44:45 PM

Yes, taking your belongings without conviction is stealing.

Seizing is stealing but in a legal way.

It's nothing but a wordplay used by the authorities to distinguish between the same action done by you and a lawman.

Quote from: SamReomo on October 26, 2023, 01:52:11 PM

If I'm not wrong then with the new bill they can take legal action against anyone who holds Bitcoin and they can easily make out the fake evidence that the Bitcoin were used in illegal activities and can seize those Bitcoin from the holders without any question.

Even worse.

They can take your bitcoin claiming that it comes from a crime. You will defend yourself but it can take years in which time they'll be holding your bitcoin.
You can win it back or not but you're still going to lose money on lawyers. Money that you don't have because they seized it.

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Quote from: Rikafip on October 26, 2023, 10:35:25 AM

You should have read the article you shared pass the title (which was imho misleadingly written ) as its mention later in the text that goal of this new bill is to make it even easier and faster for government agencies to seize cryptocurrencies that they belive were used in illegal activities.

If I'm not wrong then with the new bill they can take legal action against anyone who holds Bitcoin and they can easily make out the fake evidence that the Bitcoin were used in illegal activities and can seize those Bitcoin from the holders without any question.

That's the worst step against Bitcoin holders because now the government agencies can legal seize anyone's Bitcoin and consider those as illegally acquired coins and the holders won't be able to do anything because the bill allows the agencies to do that.

That's another step taken by a government to suppress the freedom of Bitcoin holders which's totally unfair act against the holders who have accumulated Bitcoin by legal means. The holders won't be able to prove that they have invested a lot of time and money in order to accumulate those Bitcoin. I think this is the start of such actions and in future they will make more strict rules for Bitcoin holders.

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Quote from: dothebeats on October 26, 2023, 10:48:19 AM

So it's like robbery, then. They just take your coins and pin you with no crime whatsoever, as long as they believe that you are related--or at least your coins are--to any illicit activity. Sounds super convenient to them.

Yes, taking your belongings without conviction is stealing. It used to be that a court has to allow the authorities to take your personal property, but then the law slowly became filled with annotations and revisions because what if you're using that property for a crime, or it could be used as proof.
In most countries if you hit someone with your car and that person dies on the scene, your car will be taken away without a court order. It's the same situation as if you get caught carrying a firearm without a permit.

Now they're trying to include money and broadening the definition to allow them to take it remotely. So now you don't have to be caught in the act, it's enough for someone to point a finger at you and your money is gone.

I don't blame the government though. If you had the power to create laws, wouldn't you make them so that they grant you more power?

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