Topic: Ultimate blockchain compression w/ trust-free lite nodes - page 19. (Read 87932 times)

Well that's where we are differing in opinion.  Majority peer-influence is cheap relative to majority mining power.  That's not to say it's an easy exploit, or that it would be in any way worth it.  But I see it as a source of uncertainty, and a channel waiting to be exploited in some way we haven't thought about.  I think the added complexity is well worth closing the "hole" completely.  Though not everyone feels it's actually a hole. 

I personally think it makes more sense, anyway -- you can still get a single TxOut with O(log(N)+log(M)) if you really want it -- but most of the time, it would be new nodes hopping on the network with imported wallets, and simply want to get their balance.  This tree structure takes that use case into account directly and doesn't leave a shred of uncertainty that they got the right answer.

I always saw that a separate issue/feature of my proposal (i.e. not necessary for starting and deploying an implementation), also making things simpler. Sometimes (actually most of the time) you just need to know an output hasn't been spent. If you need the balance and someone gives you a list of outputs, you can be sure those outputs are unspent; the only thing remaining is knowing if *all* the outputs are given to you.

That's easy to solve. I'm thinking of several solutions that doesn't require full nodes to build and verify the tree. For example having a separate tree, address-based instead of chain-based, which just stores the number of unspent outputs (removing the key if the value is 0).

Initially, though, we can just query several nodes to give us the count of unspent outputs and trust the majority.

DiThi,

I see this from a different angle.  

(1) The tree-part of my proposal should be seen as an extension of yours.  I'm sure my idea was inspired from reading yours a long time ago.  The difference being that extra complexity is added to the tree structure to accommodate the most common use-case:  requesting address balances.  My tree structure guarantees that you can not only get any TxOut, but you can get all TxOuts for a given address/script and have no doubts that it's correct.

I believe this is a worthy trade-off, comared to your tree structure, as it removes a channel of uncertainty for the operator, and removes a channel for shenanigans from those who wish to deceive you.  And in the end, it's not actually that much more complicated.  It's simply more-tailored for the way that users need to access the network.

(2)  As echoed by others, I believe that a hard-forking blockchain change is going to only happen in the event of a crisis.  To do so requires more than democracy -- it will seriously impact the entire network in a detrimental way.  There are users who are still using version 0.3.X bitcoin clients not because they want to, but because it works, and they don't follow the forums or Bitcoin news or anything of the sort.  And the hard fork exposes them to all sorts of malicious behavior by others who would exploit their ignorance of current events and manipulate the abandoned chain that they are stuck on.

To maintain confidence in the system, a hard fork is going to need more than democracy -- it's going to need super-majority, probably 80-90% ... and gaining that level of consensus is pretty much impossible for new ideas that are not well-understood -- unless the idea has been in the wild, and in use for many months/years and is already used by 80%+ people.

The idea of using a second blockchain is actually a way of creating a "staging area" for such ideas on the main network (like galambo said) without actually risking exposing that network to any of the unforeseen issues that could arise.  It can be used to add such functionality to the network without actually changing the network.

In this way, the meta-chain can grow and develop as people start using it and understanding it.  People start building infrastructure on the availability of the information in that chain.  Once it has become ubiquitous enough and time-tested as a pillar of a part of the network, then you have 80%+ agreement amongst users without even having to ask for it.  At this point, a hard-fork is entirely feasible -- or at least orders of magnitude less disruptive.

You're right, it's not the only way, but I think it's about as good as it's going to get.

I would be pretty surprised if nodes started identifying themselves through SSL certificates.

That said however, what it looks like you have proposed is tiers of nodes and a structure that includes supernodes.  I actually agree with you that such a structure will be critical to scalability of the network.

About rolling out new features and avoiding block chain splits, what we need is a good automatic system to automatically and democratically add any feature. Just like the implementation schedule of p2sh but being more like my proposal: time-flexible, with an additional temporal sub-chain, and for any feature. It may be difficult and problematic to code it only for one feature, but IMHO it's worth it if it's a generic implementation-deprecation system for determining the validity of blocks.

This idea could end up having more uses than enabling lightweight clients.

For instance, forking the main blockchain is practically impossible today. Even if someone came around with worthwhile changes to the storage subsystem or the scripting subsystem we could never implement it. The moment the two chains got out of sync you need two copies of the block chain .dat that are mostly identical.

With this proposal a certain "snapshot" in the metachain could be specified as the branch point for the blockchain. This snapshot could be used to refer back to the legacy system.

The proposal would allow experiments and tests using the real chain. The developers have been sort of paralyzed because they cannot change many things in the implementation because there's not really any way to change it.

If one of these experimental branches became popular enough, a new branch could be created on the official branch with ample notice to all users.

Also, having a chain of snapshots would allow the network to avoid new and unforeseen attacks. If one user managed to do something detrimental in the block chain to his advantage and every other user's disadvantage (like a sustained 51% attack, or an exploit), the community could achieve a consensus to "go back in time" to a previous snapshot with a patched client.

You are discussing two issues that IMHO it's already resolved in my proposal or a followup:

Efficient tree update: The update functions only recalculates the hashes affected by the changes of each block. Those changes can be reversed, as long as the block is valid (i.e. there's no double spends), therefore it will be easy to roll-back in case of getting orphaned blocks.

Where to save the roots: In my proposal I explain how to roll it out in the coinbase of the existing chain, but nullifying the risk of a chain split by rejecting blocks with invalid root only when there are more than 55% of valid roots in a specific time span.

For extra security (and this is what isn't originally in my proposal), the root should be accompanied by a hash of the previous+current valid roots, effectively making a secure blockchain from day one. But after it's deployed widely, it will be unnecessary, as we'll know miners will reject blocks with invalid roots. Miners won't reject blocks without roots. Blocks with valid root but without this blockchain-ish hash won't be rejected either (so we can drop this hash when it's not longer necessary).

In this way, creating a separate chain is just a temporal fix for something that will be in the main chain some day.

Its called SSL I think.

Say I store the public keys for:
1. My friend Bob.
2. Guy who posted his key on a forum.
3. MtGox.

Since I am lazy that's it.

You send me invalid money and I check those nodes.

It now either becomes apparent that someone is blocking my connection OR one of them will likely NOT be colluding with you.

You can fake IPs but you have no way to fake that you have their private keys for my encrypted communication so my client will just display "You are under attack!!!".

I mean what customer/merchant would wait days to know whether payment was made or not?

edit: A swarm client would run on a smartphone and act as a full node btw.. Could even mine a bit in a pool.

Many people. Imagine if all you had to do today to bootstrap was to download a week of blocks. A low-end laptop can do that in less than an hour today, and that's without all of the code optimizations the Bitcoin implementations will have in the future, not to mention hardware.

@realpra How will you connect to any node not controlled by an attacker if I the attacker control your upstream Internet and am redirecting your connection attempts to nodes I control?  You think you are connected to node X by its IP, but you are really connected to my node Y and have no way to know.

I would argue that as long as new miners that are bootstrapping at any given time are only a small % of the hash power, they'd be stupid not to verify that far back. Any misplaced trust in the recent meta-blocks could cause them to create an invalid block, which would be a terrible finical loss. In fact, for this reason, many miners will likely opt to always hold the entire chain, and not trust the meta-blocks at all. I consider that a good thing.

Generally, only users and merchants should be using the meta-chain to bootstrap, although I won't be that disappointed if miners eventually have to use it too, as long as they're careful.

My solution is basically trust that 1 guy out 1000 is honest - or run the client you are today with massive lag/huge fees.

I think you misunderstand, you don't need to connect to a TRUSTED node per say just ANY node that is not colluding with the attacker.

ANY will do. Could even be a different ATTACKER that didn't know what the FIRST attacker wanted hidden!

As for secure communication that is pretty standard, BTC should have it already if it doesn't.


Right, instead your well-intended solution has a double spend vulnerability easily exploited by any upstream provider that can only be mitigated by connecting to a known centralized server that you think you can "trust" (the opposite of peer-to-peer).