Unconfirmed transaction is not even visible on block explorers

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on November 18, 2022, 02:36:59 AM

How can you have a different signature if you sign the same message from the same address? Shouldn't you have the same signature every time you sign the the same message from the same address?

Usually yes, but it also depends on your wallet software/implementation.

Most good wallets use RFC 6979 to generate a k value for signing. This means k is produced deterministically, using a combination of your private key, the message you are signing, and a hash function. So the same message signed from the same private key will always generate the same k value and therefore the same signature. RFC 6979 is used to ensure that k is always unique and stop k accidentally being reused across different transactions, which would leak your private key.

However, if you are using a wallet implementation (I don't know of any that still do this) which just randomly generates k, then every time you sign the same message from the same private key it will use a different value for k, resulting in a different signature.

NotATether

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on November 17, 2022, 07:48:03 PM

Quote from: NotATether on November 17, 2022, 07:26:48 PM

I made a second transaction with the same source/destination address and amount, just with a higher fee. From there I got the same transaction hex.

This is not possible.
For increasing transaction fee, you have to either add an extra input or decrease the output value. With the change in transaction data, the transaction hash should change as well.

You are right, it looks like the successful transaction has a different txid: 265fc8f27bee89e81a184aba89088784ea8ed09289c2429fc3f17ec2242cd9b9

^--- this is the one that is using a higher fee and had confirmed. The leading "2" looked suspiciously like a 3, and they both are followed by "65...." or similar.

I pulled this via Guarda, so I can be sure they don't have a complete RPC meltdown.

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on November 17, 2022, 05:53:10 PM

Quote from: buwaytress on November 17, 2022, 04:28:05 PM

Though now I'm curious also about seoincorporation's post... what did they change to get a diff ID? Is it that "clam-speech" bit? What's that?

I don't really know what's "clam-speech".
As I see in the post made by seoincorporation the "time" has been also changed.

It's in the code provided by seoincorporation... but I guess have to wait for him to respond to understand how the ID changed, and what variable changed it.

Quote from: seoincorporation on November 17, 2022, 12:45:27 PM

Code:

"clam-speech" : "Expression of Political Freedom: Autocracy",

Quote from: LoyceV on November 18, 2022, 01:43:58 AM

Quote from: buwaytress on November 17, 2022, 04:28:05 PM

OK I'm suddenly curious now and want to try this next time I fire up as I actually never noticed. I don't know how it all works but using explanations above... if tx ID is made by hashing tx data, and the data doesn't change (destination, amount fee, locktime, etc), then the hash result will always be the same, correct?

Isn't this related to not reusing the same k value?

It's easy to test by signing the same message twice: the signature changes.

k value def new to me (bearing in mind I'm always finding out new things from a very basic user perspective). And don't even know what it means to me. Also always thought signature remains same, as that's how people can verify if I give them the message and signature... right?

In any case, tx ID is created at creation of raw tx, not at signature stage (refer above).

P.S. that link you shared, crazy it still holds 59 BTC (7 more than when it was first alerted in 2013!).

nc50lc

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 18, 2022, 01:43:58 AM

~~It's easy to test by signing the same message twice: the signature changes.~~ I just tested it, and I get the same signature. I thought the "k value" was a random, but clearly this isn't my area of expertise.

AFAIK, Electrum is using a deterministic 'k' based from the private key and the hash of the message to be signed (actual formula, IDK).
So it'll produce the same 'k' for same message, thus same signature; but not if the message is different since it'll produce a different 'k'.
That's essentially not reusing nonce. [CMIIAW]

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: LoyceV on November 18, 2022, 01:43:58 AM

It's easy to test by signing the same message twice: the signature changes.

The signature changes? It seems that there's something I don't understand here.

I just signed a message.

Code:

Address: bc1qy22tj52f469y8zf9jalzyhc6snldqq8nqzfw56
private key: L5VtBJJUv6NKym6JZLfF53iqAfA34kadmAsFAc5DV8vqrNYNJJwK

Message: This message is signed for testing purposes. 
Signature: IGu0FwHYh48v5UU9/SQLTq/f9WPEi6N0qz4N7+oT4/GXIpjmvlZ8rj72r8Eoyj6DEkLsWX9D/c9qSvkwsHYvCZI=

How can you have a different signature if you sign the same message from the same address? Shouldn't you have the same signature every time you sign the the same message from the same address?

LoyceV

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Quote from: buwaytress on November 17, 2022, 04:28:05 PM

OK I'm suddenly curious now and want to try this next time I fire up as I actually never noticed. I don't know how it all works but using explanations above... if tx ID is made by hashing tx data, and the data doesn't change (destination, amount fee, locktime, etc), then the hash result will always be the same, correct?

Isn't this related to not reusing the same k value?

~~It's easy to test by signing the same message twice: the signature changes.~~ I just tested it, and I get the same signature. I thought the "k value" was a random, but clearly this isn't my area of expertise.

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: NotATether on November 17, 2022, 07:26:48 PM

I made a second transaction with the same source/destination address and amount, just with a higher fee. From there I got the same transaction hex.

This is not possible.
For increasing transaction fee, you have to either add an extra input or decrease the output value. With the change in transaction data, the transaction hash should change as well.

NotATether

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on November 17, 2022, 06:32:16 AM

From what I've read, Guarda is non-custodial?
If so, maybe there's a chance to get the raw transaction hex and re-broadcast it with a few such free service over the internet?

Yes, it is non-custodial (now why would I use a custodial wallet myself?) - that's how I was able to import its private key into Electrum and initiate the transaction from there.

Quote from: hosseinimr93 on November 17, 2022, 03:01:53 PM

Quote from: casinotester0001 on November 17, 2022, 01:44:23 PM

NotATether didn't say that he changed the fee or locktime.

I don't know what exactly NotATether did.
He probably made a new transaction which should have a different ID. If you click on the link he provided in the OP, you will see that transaction doesn't exist.

I made a second transaction with the same source/destination address and amount, just with a higher fee. From there I got the same transaction hex. Since that one went through, it means that my first transaction never went or in the first place.

Quote from: dkbit98 on November 17, 2022, 03:57:22 PM

Quote from: NotATether on November 16, 2022, 01:23:21 PM

Yesterday I was transferring my Bitcoins out of Guarda wallet (as I had just swapped some Ethereum for it) to my Electrum wallet, with a fee of 6 sats/vB - this was before I looked at the mempool volume.

I think that Guarda wallet is using some third parties like ChangeNow for exchanging coins, so this could be the root cause problem for your transaction.
Few years ago I tested Guarda wallet desktop version and I didn't liked it, I think it still had old address formats and all interface was terrible.
I would really stay away from closed source wallets like this, there are much better alternative both for mobile and dekstop.

Did balance of your BTC address changed in any way on your wallet and in explorers?
Maybe you should try importing private key or seed words to other wallet and see if everything works or not.

Before making the transaction I exchanged some Ethereum for Bitcoin. I waited for the bitcoin transaction to confirm before sending it out, and it somehow worked the first time, but then subsequent broadcasts of the rawtx failed with some "RPC error".

Normally I just use TradeOgre when I need to exchange large amounts of coin, but if I happen to need to exchange urgently, a wallet with that sort of feature is a nice to-have. Hence Guarda (but now that it's acting up, I might jump ship to something like Unstoppable Wallet).

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: buwaytress on November 17, 2022, 04:28:05 PM

if tx ID is made by hashing tx data, and the data doesn't change (destination, amount fee, locktime, etc), then the hash result will always be the same, correct?

If nothing is changed, you have actually made the same transaction and if you broadcast it, you actually re-broadcast the previous transaction.

Quote from: buwaytress on November 17, 2022, 04:28:05 PM

Though now I'm curious also about seoincorporation's post... what did they change to get a diff ID? Is it that "clam-speech" bit? What's that?

I don't really know what's "clam-speech".
As I see in the post made by seoincorporation the "time" has been also changed.

buwaytress

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Quote from: hosseinimr93 on November 17, 2022, 01:13:23 PM

Quote from: casinotester0001 on November 17, 2022, 06:01:00 AM

If you generate a new transaction with the same input/output you will get the same txid.

No. This is wrong.
The transaction ID is calculated by hashing the transaction data through SHA256 function twice. So, with any change in the transaction data, you get a new transaction ID. For example, the new transaction can have a different fee or a different locktime and even with the same inputs and same outputs would have a different ID.

OK I'm suddenly curious now and want to try this next time I fire up as I actually never noticed. I don't know how it all works but using explanations above... if tx ID is made by hashing tx data, and the data doesn't change (destination, amount fee, locktime, etc), then the hash result will always be the same, correct?

So the tx ID should always be the same if you're attempting to create the raw tx with the exact same changeable perimeters (which I guess is what casinotester really wanted to say).

Though now I'm curious also about seoincorporation's post... what did they change to get a diff ID? Is it that "clam-speech" bit? What's that?

dkbit98

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Quote from: NotATether on November 16, 2022, 01:23:21 PM

Yesterday I was transferring my Bitcoins out of Guarda wallet (as I had just swapped some Ethereum for it) to my Electrum wallet, with a fee of 6 sats/vB - this was before I looked at the mempool volume.

I think that Guarda wallet is using some third parties like ChangeNow for exchanging coins, so this could be the root cause problem for your transaction.
Few years ago I tested Guarda wallet desktop version and I didn't liked it, I think it still had old address formats and all interface was terrible.
I would really stay away from closed source wallets like this, there are much better alternative both for mobile and dekstop.

Did balance of your BTC address changed in any way on your wallet and in explorers?
Maybe you should try importing private key or seed words to other wallet and see if everything works or not.

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: casinotester0001 on November 17, 2022, 01:44:23 PM

NotATether didn't say that he changed the fee or locktime.

I don't know what exactly NotATether did.
He probably made a new transaction which should have a different ID. If you click on the link he provided in the OP, you will see that transaction doesn't exist.

Quote from: casinotester0001 on November 17, 2022, 01:44:23 PM

Yes, if you change these intentionally, you will get a different txid. But what is the reason to change the txid? Do the nodes accept it as a new transaction (with the same input) if the old one is in the mempool?

If the transaction has the same ID, that's not a new transaction at all. That would be the same transaction.
If the original transaction hasn't been flagged as FBF, nodes will reject the new transaction.
If the original transaction has been flagged as RBF and the new transaction meets the requirements specified in BIP125, it will be accepted by the nodes.

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Quote from: NotATether on November 16, 2022, 11:07:32 PM

Yeah, I did that and was able to successfully move the coins. It generated the same txid.

NotATether didn't say that he changed the fee or locktime.

Quote from: hosseinimr93 on November 17, 2022, 01:13:23 PM

For example, the new transaction can have a different fee or a different locktime and even with the same inputs and same outputs would have a different ID.

Yes, if you change these intentionally, you will get a different txid. But what is the reason to change the txid? Do the nodes accept it as a new transaction (with the same input) if the old one is in the mempool?

hosseinimr93

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Quote from: casinotester0001 on November 17, 2022, 06:01:00 AM

If you generate a new transaction with the same input/output you will get the same txid.

No. This is wrong.
The transaction ID is calculated by hashing the transaction data through SHA256 function twice. So, with any change in the transaction data, you get a new transaction ID. For example, the new transaction can have a different fee or a different locktime and even with the same inputs and same outputs would have a different ID.

seoincorporation

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Quote from: casinotester0001 on November 17, 2022, 06:01:00 AM

Quote from: NotATether on November 16, 2022, 11:07:32 PM

Yeah, I did that and was able to successfully move the coins. It generated the same txid.

Quote from: seoincorporation on November 16, 2022, 11:25:09 PM

No, you generate a new transaction with the same keys, inputs and outputs, but not the same txid, let me explain.
When you take the secret keys from one wallet to another and make a transaction, even you use the same inputs, same amounts, and same outputs, the Transaction ID (txid) will be different.

If you generate a new transaction with the same input/output you will get the same txid. Else blockchain would not work, so Bitcoin wouldn't exist

As Linus Torvalds says... talk is cheap, show me the code.

Code:

[bitcoin@talk bin]$ a=$(./clamd createrawtransaction '[{"txid":"263f3b50037f2a596a640939ac6f47a688e63fe211a5d06b28ce35180ad97850","vout":1}]' '{"xCPd81UNFhHvhNjNQWyWTJKMJMv1JDijnY":12.47903878}')
[bitcoin@talk bin]$ echo $a
02000000ac6f7663015078d90a1835ce286bd0a511e23fe688a6476fac3909646a592a7f03503b3f260100000000ffffffff018680614a000000001976a9142cd1efeb26e5602d121ef98f5630089dd142e2fb88ac000000002a45787072657373696f6e206f6620506f6c69746963616c2046726565646f6d3a204175746f6372616379
[bitcoin@talk bin]$ ./clamd decoderawtransaction $a
{
    "txid" : "015505cb52c24fa83e174dd496e8682323164ebeb7ff5613f484ef00b44fd29f",
    "version" : 2,
    "time" : 1668706220,
    "locktime" : 0,
    "clam-speech" : "Expression of Political Freedom: Autocracy",
    "vin" : [
        {
            "txid" : "263f3b50037f2a596a640939ac6f47a688e63fe211a5d06b28ce35180ad97850",
            "vout" : 1,
            "scriptSig" : {
                "asm" : "",
                "hex" : ""
            },
            "sequence" : 4294967295
        }
    ],
    "vout" : [
        {
            "value" : 12.47903878,
            "n" : 0,
            "scriptPubKey" : {
                "asm" : "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 2cd1efeb26e5602d121ef98f5630089dd142e2fb OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG",
                "reqSigs" : 1,
                "type" : "pubkeyhash",
                "addresses" : [
                    "xCPd81UNFhHvhNjNQWyWTJKMJMv1JDijnY"
                ]
            }
        }
    ]
}
[bitcoin@talk bin]$ a=$(./clamd createrawtransaction '[{"txid":"263f3b50037f2a596a640939ac6f47a688e63fe211a5d06b28ce35180ad97850","vout":1}]' '{"xCPd81UNFhHvhNjNQWyWTJKMJMv1JDijnY":12.47903878}')
[bitcoin@talk bin]$ ./clamd decoderawtransaction $a
{
    "txid" : "e9d9b7086dc7ca23ba1d7bd37ff3fb7ced0416adb170d69eacc659f66ebf578b",
    "version" : 2,
    "time" : 1668706346,
    "locktime" : 0,
    "clam-speech" : "Expression of Political Freedom: Religious socialism",
    "vin" : [
        {
            "txid" : "263f3b50037f2a596a640939ac6f47a688e63fe211a5d06b28ce35180ad97850",
            "vout" : 1,
            "scriptSig" : {
                "asm" : "",
                "hex" : ""
            },
            "sequence" : 4294967295
        }
    ],
    "vout" : [
        {
            "value" : 12.47903878,
            "n" : 0,
            "scriptPubKey" : {
                "asm" : "OP_DUP OP_HASH160 2cd1efeb26e5602d121ef98f5630089dd142e2fb OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG",
                "reqSigs" : 1,
                "type" : "pubkeyhash",
                "addresses" : [
                    "xCPd81UNFhHvhNjNQWyWTJKMJMv1JDijnY"
                ]
            }
        }
    ]
}

I was wrong and the TxID comes from the create raw transaction step, and not from the sign raw transaction step.

As you can see in the code i created a transaction with the same inputs, outputs, and amounts and the first one gets the TxID:

Code:

015505cb52c24fa83e174dd496e8682323164ebeb7ff5613f484ef00b44fd29f

While the second one:

Code:

e9d9b7086dc7ca23ba1d7bd37ff3fb7ced0416adb170d69eacc659f66ebf578b

This is why it's important to know how to build your transactions by hand and understand how the transactions works. Wink

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: NotATether on November 16, 2022, 11:07:32 PM

Not sure what on earth is wrong with Guarda but I don't feel like sending BTC anymore with it...

From what I've read, Guarda is non-custodial?
If so, maybe there's a chance to get the raw transaction hex and re-broadcast it with a few such free service over the internet?

casinotester0001

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Quote from: NotATether on November 16, 2022, 11:07:32 PM

Yeah, I did that and was able to successfully move the coins. It generated the same txid.

Quote from: seoincorporation on November 16, 2022, 11:25:09 PM

No, you generate a new transaction with the same keys, inputs and outputs, but not the same txid, let me explain.
When you take the secret keys from one wallet to another and make a transaction, even you use the same inputs, same amounts, and same outputs, the Transaction ID (txid) will be different.

If you generate a new transaction with the same input/output you will get the same txid. Else blockchain would not work, so Bitcoin wouldn't exist

seoincorporation

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Quote from: NotATether on November 16, 2022, 11:07:32 PM

It generated the same txid.

No, you generate a new transaction with the same keys, inputs and outputs, but not the same txid, let me explain.

When you take the secret keys from one wallet to another and make a transaction, even you use the same inputs, same amounts, and same outputs, the Transaction ID (txid) will be different.

I know you are a pro in the topic and was a miss spelling, you generate the same transaction, but is important to mention that you can get a different transaction ID (txid) in the sign process before the broadcast. So, if some one offer you 1 btc for a transaction id ending in fff, you could get it by brute force without spending a single coin because you get the txid before pushing the transaction in the network.

NotATether

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Quote from: seoincorporation on November 16, 2022, 04:39:53 PM

That's weird, if the transaction isn't showing in the block explorer that means your wallet didn't push the transaction on the network, or your wallet is out of sync.

Another option for this kind of scenarios is a double spend, those kind of transactions are visible for some time, but then they get deleted.

Move the private keys to a new wallet and try to spend them again is the right way to recover those coins because if the transaction isn't in the blockchain then the coins haven't been spend.

Yeah, I did that and was able to successfully move the coins. It generated the same txid.

Not sure what on earth is wrong with Guarda but I don't feel like sending BTC anymore with it...

seoincorporation

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That's weird, if the transaction isn't showing in the block explorer that means your wallet didn't push the transaction on the network, or your wallet is out of sync.

Another option for this kind of scenarios is a double spend, those kind of transactions are visible for some time, but then they get deleted.

Move the private keys to a new wallet and try to spend them again is the right way to recover those coins because if the transaction isn't in the blockchain then the coins haven't been spend.

Topic: Unconfirmed transaction is not even visible on block explorers (Read 346 times)