Topic: Unfortunately people will learn the hard way that Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme - page 2. (Read 808 times)

OP doesn't know about the definition of a ponzi scheme and additionally he has no clue about Bitcoin...   

I will assume you are arguing from a point of good faith, and want to have a discussion on this matter.  I will address your points before I explain why bitcoin is not a Ponzi.


okay I watched it, it is oversimplified to the point of being wrong. numbers are abstract concepts not physical things. 2 apples are apples, the thing is the apple.

The numbers stuff at the start is over simplified and misses a lot of extra information.  for example it does not cover the number zero. this number represents two completely different mathematical concepts.  first - it represents nothing. as in 6 - 6 = 0. second (and this is why we dont use roman numerals) it represents a place holder amount of some multiple of 10.  i.e. 1, 10, 100, 1000. Then you have 0/0, or 10/0, or 0/10 these are all different mathematical objects. (this list is not exhaustive, just some examples)

It does not cover negative numbers. these are even more abstract and harder to understand than 0, yet essential to their argument of debt.  however they get around this with their ledger example by using headings labelled "assets" and "liabilities"

seeing as their premise is twisted to suit their narrative I am going to ignore the video and address your points instead.


Can you explain who is obligated to pay back monies printed by quantitative easing? This is a very important point and a fundamental of bitcoin. so much so it is in the coinbase of the first ever mined block. - rule 1 of bitcoin

Also, how does fractional reserve banking work..? where do those dollars come from? they 100% do not exist, they are just numbers on a screen. yet real dollars have to be made to pay them back.  can you see the issue with this? you understand this is rule 2 of bitcoin.


again, who has to pay the dollars for the subprime loans? those dollars don't exist. that money can never be returned.  more money is owed than is in circulation.


not sure of your point, I think you are misunderstanding the "dollars must be accepted as settlement for debt" part of legal tender.  Dollars have to be accepted otherwise the government would not have control of its own economy. you can accept other things, but you must accept dollars, or instruments representing dollars. but I might be misunderstanding your point


where did the money to pay back the loan defaults on the sub prime market come from?  what about securities (ie a house) that become negative equity? just because a property is seized doesn't mean dollars magically appear, especially when they never existed in the first place.  like I said before your premise is false.


No, you must accept dollars as a minimum for repaying debt.  I could ask for skittles...  Also note cheques, postal orders and postage stamps are all legal tender for settlement of debt.  are they Ponzi schemes?


we don't use the gold standard anymore, or am I missing your point?  What is the intrinsic value of a dollar bill and where/who can I reclaim that from?  [I'm from the uk, and it says on our notes "I promise to pay the barer on demand the sum of x pounds"  This is a direct reference to its gold value. in theory I could go to the bank of England and demand 10gbps worth of gold. obviously this is now just tradition.]

isn't gold a strong counter example to your point about debt and fiat?  Is gold a Ponzi too?


Does gold originate from debt? your paragraph here is completely true, but I have never seen anyone ever claim otherwise with bitcoin.  you cant force someone to accept bitcoin as settlement for debt, but so what? you cant force someone to accept gold as settlement for debt.

How about if someone DOES want to accept cryptos in exchange for goods, how does that make anything bad? do you own any alpaca socks? just because it is not government based and not debt based doesn't mean it has no value.  Barter is still legal.  again I think you are conflating "you must allow debts to be settled in dollars" with "debts must be settled in dollars." they are not the same. The second statement is a false statement.


What? really? No that is investment, and risk.  I have hope and faith that someone will exchange my computer skills and cryptography skills for fiat money or economic goods. Is working a job by definition a Ponzi scheme? you don't know what a Ponzi is or you don't know what the word definition means.... Now I am starting to think you are arguing in bad faith.  Still hopefully this post will help someone.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ponzi%20scheme


Can you please show how bitcoin fits this definition of a Ponzi...


again utility can be used as a measure of value, like toothpicks.  just because I may not see that value, or it may not have any direct bearing on my life it does not mean it doesn't for someone else.


cryptos have very high utility, just because you cant see it or understand it, it doesn't stop it from being there.  I don't know how to fly a plane, I can still understand that it has value.

Have you ever managed to buy a meal with toothpicks?


cryptos are not a zero sum game. ponzis are. stocks can have volatility, why is that proof it is a Ponzi?

and there can be enforceable contracts, you are just making stuff up now.  The main purpose of a government is to enforce private contacts. those contracts can be about cars, houses, bitcoin, sheep, who will win the football, etc

So the whole point of this is "I don't understand why people value cryptos, therefore they are a scam!".  All the stuff you outlined above is true, but it doesn't stop it having utility.  and utility has intrinsic value (think work has value), it is just not the same a fiat.  this is the whole point of crypto.

im not claiming anything magic about bitcoin in this i am just showing how you are wrong with your claim. im open to discussion though.


edit: despite what a lot of bitcoin and crypto advocates say, crypto is meant to compliment the banking system, not replace it - imho.

cheers,

steve

Seems half of newbies are trolls. They enjoy the drama.

Yes, the attacks on bitcoin intensifies with every little tick up in price. Hopefully we'll soon see these people go back to their wonderful Fiat system where money is 100% controlled by satan-worshipping pedo banksters while the rest of the world leaves them behind in their own filth, in conjunction with the decline in popularity of bitcoin for the next few years until another intermediate top comes along..

You know, Its not even about him been a newbie and creating a post with that title, because most newbies create post with catchy post title, yet their post makes sense. This guy don't even seems to have enough evidence to back up his claims. And don't be surprised if he is a banker because that is what some of them do; to whine about bitcoin been a scam and so. OP, if you feel bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, let those who feel its not to invest in it, one one is been forced to invest in it.

Precisely, they seek every little opportunity to denigrate bitcoin whereas there are countless systems of fiat currencies in existence being controlled by some world governments which are never criticized but because bitcoin isn't under their control like those they will always badmouth and make denigrating statements against it.

Are you trolling OP ?
Do you understand how dollar works?
1. It has no value of its own
2. Simple paper with no backing. Since 1970 no gold behind it.
3. USA alone is 20 trillions in debt. Do you think this shitbanking system will survive for long? This ponzi-pyramid-fraud-debtDriven-slaveryProducing-scheme called our banking system.

Now, clearly you don't grasp the value behind bitcoin, it is not just supply demand, like with other currencies.
If bitcoin isn't backed by anything, please create it right now, you should be able to do it easily. What happened? Can't create it? Why? Use brains.
In short bitcoin is backed up by:
1. Fraud resistance. obviously, can't modify transactions.
2. Scarcity. doesn't matter if you start using all of the power on the planet, you won't create it "faster". The difficulty is dynamic, the supply is limited.
3. Unstoppable. "It’s not backed by or controlled by any one entity, the destruction or corruption of any one entity, or any several, or hundreds of entities, will not destroy bitcoin or impact its fraud resistance or scarcity"
4. "Permissionlesness". Do you need to pay for opening "bitcoin account" ? Do you need to ask permission from someone?

To sum up:
"It doesn’t have fraudulent transactions (or any counterfeiting), it doesn’t have an unlimited supply, it doesn’t have any way to stop it, it doesn’t need anybody’s permission and it doesn’t exist in any one place or respect any political borders. I’ll leave it to you to compare how many of these things that bitcoin is backed by are true of what you might consider money and whether what backs that money is better or worse than bitcoin."

i dont think this good idea to run. not allow them to create a topic will kill them freedom.
he has his own opinion and we have our own and thas it. more argue will make us more angry. so let him do or speak what he want and we do what we want.
but in my opinion, bitcoin is not ponzi. thats it.

The OP is ignorant of both Bitcoin and ponzi schemes.

bunch of desperate trolls with agenda, why admins don't clean the board and delete their posts .

No one will read a post with this size created by a newbie with that title, sorry 

The US dollar is a note, promising the holder that the US government will pay said holder the denominated amount in gold.. ehm.. no, wait..in oil.. eh.. no, that's not it either.. in taxed slave labour! Yes, that's it!

How is THAT not the biggest Ponzi-scheme ever invented?

However, as anyone who knows knows, bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme because the bitcoin market can be analyzed and the bitcoin investment is profitable.

there are stock companies that mine bitcoin hence that statement is invalid. bitcoin bought for fiat is transfer of debt which you stated fiat to be.

fiat is no better than bitcoin. if you disagree please explain zimbabwes crazy inflation if its a measure of debt. the apparent measure of debt isnt consistent as it diluted.

your fiat is more a value of trust you hold that it will remain an equal value of debt exchange. if that trust is destroyed by government then what you hold becomes a ponzi.

i get your general idea but if you believe bitcoin not to measure value than fiat should not be either.

I was not referring to fiat valuation. I was referring to value as in potential.
Bitcoin's fiat value does indeed come from the brand. But its value to the system is that it acts as a gateway and is, what I consider, the first prophet of true decentralization. It needs improvement. Bitcoin, as a brand might as well die one day. But having got us to a point where we no longer need it for the advancement of this goal, I say it deserves respect and recognition.

if you believe currency in a bank or fiat is safe and will stay stable i have to disapoint you.
In your video you are talking about banks if all banks are equal.
Do you have ever have heard about a Central Bank? (Or are you just trolling.)

A stocks represents ownership of the corporation that produces tangible goods or services. Hence, this is not a Ponzi scheme.

Why I say bitcoin is a ponzi scheme? I explained why in my OP.

so all stocks on the stock market are a ponzi scheme too?

bitcoin functions like a limited stock of 21 million total. if people use fiat to buy bitcoin are they not transferring the debt value that fiat represents into the bitcoin which then gives bitcoin that utility as a debt instrument?

based on your points the stock market matches exactly bitcoin which would be governments support a ponzi scheme market.