Topic: *Unofficial* ICBIT (BTC Futures Trading) - Help & FAQ's - page 2. (Read 26279 times)

Thanks. It is still all a bit obscure. Do you know if the holding fee is different to the opening/closing fee? And how much is it?

Then they say there is a twice a day holding fee:

FEES

Each trading instrument will operate one of two fee models:
Lower transaction fees, but a twice-daily holding fee per contract applied at clearing (designed to encourage day-trading)
Higher per-transaction fees, but no holding fees (designed to support longer term trades)

Per transaction fees are calculated in BTC and are chargeable at the point of contract purchase/sale, therefore each position will incur fees twice (open and close).  Fees are charged according to the quantity of contracts being bought/sold, so whilst the fee is not displayed prior to purchase, it can be calculated by multiplying the quantity by the fee (and double if you also need to consider closure fees).

Actual fees are listed on the instrument reference pages (e.g. https://icbit.se/BUH4) and vary per instrument, usually with lower fees on contracts which are furthest form settlement.

Update 01/04/13: Fee discounts based on trade volume - fee discounts are now applied based on trading volumes, so if you trade a lot your fees will be lower - as outlined here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1717445

I have a question about fees.

ICBIT say this regarding the BTC/USD-9.14 contract:

"0.0002 BTC for 1 contract trade or settlement. Subject to change."

Does this mean the only fees I ever pay to ICBIT are 0.0002 BTC (about 10 cents) when I open a trade and the same when I close it?

Stop hunting is completely endemic in the forex world. It must be expected here too. The only thing to do is walk away from all trading until transparency is achieved - producing the trade ticket receipt from a straight-through broker.

More motive for Bitcoin enforced contracts and decentralised exchange. People are broken so we are replacing them with robots.

There are XBT/USD contracts for each of the following months:

Feb, 2014 (Settlement Feb 21st)
Mar, 2014 (Settlement March 14th)
Apr, 2014 (Settlement Apr 18th)
Sep, 2014 (Settlement Sep 19th)

There will likely be additional contracts added for one or more month(s) between now and September.

Nearer term contracts don't usually see much volume.

The option contracts are only quarterly now?  How about monthly or weekly?

I have a question... how can i just get a 10:1 margin or something, and buy bitcoins at market price?

Also, how does futures contract work here?  I am very confused about this site.

-Response from fireball?

There's nothing new in this world, except for the history you don't know. Bitfinex is certainly a scam, which is what you'd expect out of people using stolen code to implement a bucket shop.

Here is the annoying part.

If icbit were legit it would be beyond successful. I had just got a few friends into bitcoin and told them to open accounts at icbit and another exchange when I had to tell them to steer clear of icbit. Just these people I almost brought would have added a lot of depth. So they make a few bucks being crooked. If they just ran things straight they would make a fortune. It makes no sense.

Your exchange seems to be run right, at least not a scam, but 30 btc to get in leaves most people, including me, out.

Bitfinex has been first rate so far. Obviously not high on your list but I have seen no major problems there.

That part is easy to explain. Let's quote here:


People don't want to admit they're idiots and people don't want to admit they're scammers. People can't live with the fact that they have no skills and can't in any way be useful or add anything of any value or import. People prefer to believe that wanting to is quite enough. They like to pretend that they too can do things.

Usagi thinks he's creating value. Eskimo Bob imagines he adds commentary. This schmuck here thinks he's sufficiently qualified to even mention MP by name. This other fuckwit thinks he's running a service rather than a circus. The btcjam retard imagines -20% average returns is a lending operation, adding value or whatnot. Kludge the lifetime clerk (currently unemployed) thinks he's a banker. The coinurl muppets think that, and to quote,


There's a horde of these muppets, and they just keep right on talking to each other as if they're people or human beings or something. Basically this here is the kindergarten, and so in this magical space Santa does indeed exist, and Superman can solve any and all problems (which don't exist anyway) and so on. It's called forum expertise and forum investors and so forth for a reason after all.

The question you pose on that thread under the guise of paraphrasing my comment is very dishonest.

I'm sorry to see the level of ethics of people who have 'power' in the bitcoin world.

Post whatever conversations you like wherever you want. If  I notice something I feel needs a response I will respond.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Have to add this comment I noticed from you Stephen.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1450792

You and Fireball and others who may be clones of you do not notice the dots on the path traced to closing spot. Do you know what those dots are, e.g. 1m 6m 1y on your diagram? Do you know how they relate to the word you and Fireball use again and again and again? You do not know what the word means. Please provide a hundred links to whatever investopedia you like. You do not know what the word means. Fireball does not know what the word means.

This is theater of the posers.

I beg any of you pretenders to please find out what the words arbitrage, backwardation and contango mean, and what they do not mean. They are not magic words that you can just toss out to throw a smokescreen when you don't know something.

"Why is price x lower than price y"
"Oh, it is backwardation"
"Ah, I see. It's clear now."

"Why did a December contract move against spot by $10?"
"Well its arbitrage. Maybe you don't have the knowledge to understand it".
"Oh yes. I see. Arbitrage it is, okay"

A whole bunch of people that sound like teenagers pretending to be experts. And how they got this far without their bluffs, their fraud, being called, who knows?

Please, anyone who might be thinking of investing with this group please read all the posts and ask someone who knows about markets before you deal with them. Be careful of this group.

Again, this is a Help & FAQ and not the place for a discussion on your topic.  I'll no longer be posting here in response to your assertions.  I have continued the conversation here though:
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2703939

You are playing the same game they play of trying to make it look like the deficiency is in the trader rather than the exchange. 

Your childish comments about FDIC say a lot about you. I have no problem with risk. On icbit it is not risk, it is outright scamming, cheating.

Any person considering investing there, I urge to simply look at all the posts regarding the site. There is no way to make money on an exchange when you are holding positions that compete with people who can create unlimited contracts and who can see the details of your positions, including available bitcoin.

Anyone who defends those kind of crooked practices is the same as the scammer./

OK, at this very moment the last trade at BUZ2 (occurred a few minutes ago) shows 85.  Mt Gox has plenty of bids above, ... and currently trades about 88.

It doesn't matter if that fits anyone's definition of "backwardation", ... it is a condition that can happen, with or without manipulation.

Now until you say that icbit refused to enter an order of yours, or that a deposit you made wasn't credited to you account, then iCBIT is a functional marketplace that is subject to market forces.  Your positions are at a higher risk if you use leverage.  If market forces cause extreme backwardation then that's the nature of the beast.      There's nothing to counter manipulation other than market forces.

Perhaps, akwfleaspirit, ICBIT isn't the right place for you.  Perhaps a nice FDIC insured CD at your local bank is a more secure place for you to speculate with your funds.  [Edit: Actually, that might be something that should be bolded and in red at the top of the OP for this thread.  "This service causes traders to be vulnerable to manipulation by other traders.  If you don't understand the risks  don't trade here.".]

Stephen the words are not used in the way a genuine trader would use them.

It's like if you stand outside a doctor's office and one person goes in with a broken leg and the doctor says "you seem to be suffering from an inexorable indisposition". Most people would say "Well, you're a doctor, that sounds about right".
Then another person walks in with a toothache and the doctor says "you seem to be suffering from an inexorable indisposition". Most people again would say "You are the expert. It sounds right".

This is again and again and again on the icbit site with the same three words. It just is not normal. A person will say "I am such and such from this or that place and I noticed the contango" and another person will say "Oh yes, well I am from x and I noticed it too" when any simple idiot can just look at the orders and see what happened. It's beyond silly. It's like when you are a small child in kindergarten and someone starts some word game that makes no sense to someone who knows the words.

So okay, in a very strict sense, in the example above, an alternate use of the word backwardation sort of applies. I say "sort of" because even that alternate use would apply normally to a contract that trades near spot. To use backwardation to describe a heavily margined bitcoin future that has been manipulated is a stretch. The word is meant to describe a market condition, not an act. A trader would not use the word the way Fireball did above and the vast majority of the time those three words are used on icbit it would make a person scratch their head.

icbit has potential if it is run as an honest exchange. That is a big change from how it is now. I was cheated in a way any honest person with trading experience would see. I don't know Fireball or any of the other characters on icbit or this board but I am willing to extend the benefit of the doubt that maybe Fireball is a younger person who does not know what is good and what is bad. If that is the case, if he is scamming simply because he does not know the difference between an exchange and a scam operation then he can return half the bitcoin he got from me and I will point out some things he is unaware of that tag him a scam.

Backwardation

"it may also refer to the situation where a futures contract price is merely lower than the current spot price."
 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_backwardation#Normal_backwardation_vs._backwardation

I have to get one more word in about something that annoys me endlessly.

Fireball you own a futures exchange. Why not take the time to go online and look up the words arbitrage, backwardation, and contango? You and a bunch of people on your site use these words constantly but you are using them in a way that shows you do not know what they mean.

Just google the words and spend a few minutes learning what they mean.

I apologize if my comment is not help and faqs.

Sorry. Stephen I lost most of the money I have because I was slow to realize what was going on. Fireball claims he is trying to create an honest exchange. I am offering constructive feedback rather than simply exposing the current problems, in exchange for half of what they got from me.

icbit could be made into an honest exchange with protections against manipulation and in house trades. If Fireball wants to make things right I'll give feedback to help.

As far as I'm concerned that falls in the realm of "Help & FAQ". I'm sorry if it doesn't.

Please, akwfleaspirit, this is a "Help & FAQ" thread.

You have started a thread in the proper board (Service Discussion). That's where these types of comments belong.
 - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/icbit-warning-246845